USA Too many IPCs? Too much Power?



  • I wonder if the folks who think US should make less have played with skilled Axis players? I agree with BJ card. The US, if anything, does not make enough. I also think it depends on which setup you are playing with. OOB setup US needs ever one of those 52 IPC or it will never match the air and naval forces Japan will throw at it. Alpha setup I could see a pre war US income reduction but not much. I think someone has pointed it out before, but US has 1 battleship for 2 oceans while Russia has a battleship for the Baltic. Come on. US has one carrier Japan starts with 3. I don’t know. The US is designed to function as the “clock” in this version, because this version is designed to be as close to a historical AA as there has been. The more games I play, the more I think Japan has to wait until turn 3 to attack and has to do a Pearl Harbor type attack and wipe some US units. Maybe I’m playing with better Axis players or maybe the Ally players have been dummies, but out of 5 games 2 have been axis wins, two were Ally wins, and one was a draw leaning Allies.



  • A pretty good player is running the U.S. in our current game.  Things are not going that well for the UK and U.S. Boy is he wanting more money lol.



  • @moralecheck:

    How about splitting USA’s income between Pacific and Europe?  The NO money can be assigned each collect income phase however the US player wants.  That would slow their deployment a bit but still allow them to focus on whichever front the player chooses.

    Biggest problem I can see with this is that it is A-historical. The US spent the majority of its money on the Pacific. It spend more manpower in Europe but men are cheap, a fleet and air force are not. For a balanced stat you will need to be allowed to spend more than 45 on Japan on some turns. As has also been said before the US can always move units across their seemingly small country (at least in the game… always been an annoyance of mine.) and put everything on one front anyway.

    I have certainly not found that the allies are at a disadvantage in the game and so giving the US more money does not seem like a good idea to me in any respect.



  • @BJCard:

    I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the Allies have that much help-  18 Russian Inf?  If they mass near Japan, they are wiped by a few Japanese troops and 10+ aircraft.  If they retreat then they are no threat to Japan.  Indian troops help in Africa?  That much easier for Japan to nab India.

    Just send some air force and then also use some London forces to help in India. I will abandon Calcutta if it means that I will be able to capture it with a larger force afterwards…



  • @dadler12:

    I wonder if the folks who think US should make less have played with skilled Axis players? I agree with BJ card. The US, if anything, does not make enough. I also think it depends on which setup you are playing with. OOB setup US needs ever one of those 52 IPC or it will never match the air and naval forces Japan will throw at it. Alpha setup I could see a pre war US income reduction but not much. I think someone has pointed it out before, but US has 1 battleship for 2 oceans while Russia has a battleship for the Baltic. Come on. US has one carrier Japan starts with 3. I don’t know. The US is designed to function as the “clock” in this version, because this version is designed to be as close to a historical AA as there has been. The more games I play, the more I think Japan has to wait until turn 3 to attack and has to do a Pearl Harbor type attack and wipe some US units. Maybe I’m playing with better Axis players or maybe the Ally players have been dummies, but out of 5 games 2 have been axis wins, two were Ally wins, and one was a draw leaning Allies.

    I agree any money that would be taken away from them should be made up some how or else the game will be broken. I do not personally see a problem with anything but can see where some people might complain. As for the US Battleships. I think that is meant to portray Pearl harbour since in the game the US player never leaves a group of expensive ships to be sunk so easily as they were in Pearl. I could be wrong but I believe that is the thinking behind the set up.



  • I would say that the US makes “JUST” enough.  Sure they could make more, or make less.  
    that’s the interesting thing about the United States income.  They aren’t ever directly threatened on the homefront by invasion (assuming Forest Gump isn’t playing the US).  So if the game needs tweaking, then I think its easily done by adjusting the USA’s IPC income.  That being said, don’t you guys think Larry and the game testers already did that a bit and when they decided on the current number they felt pretty confidant in it??
    If your playing a very new axis player, then you could subtract 15 or 20 IPC’s from the US, or at least for the first few rounds of battle.  If the allied player is the newbie and the axis the stronger player, give the US 120 IPC’s per turn and see what they can do with them.

    It’s important that money is not everything in this game.  It’s far more important what you do with those IPC’s than how many you have.

    Also, Why hasn’t anybody commented on how easy it is for USA to gobble up an extra 6 bucks in South America???



  • @spectre_04:

    I would say that the US makes “JUST” enough.  Sure they could make more, or make less. 
    that’s the interesting thing about the United States income.  They aren’t ever directly threatened on the homefront by invasion (assuming Forest Gump isn’t playing the US).  So if the game needs tweaking, then I think its easily done by adjusting the USA’s IPC income.  That being said, don’t you guys think Larry and the game testers already did that a bit and when they decided on the current number they felt pretty confidant in it??
    If your playing a very new axis player, then you could subtract 15 or 20 IPC’s from the US, or at least for the first few rounds of battle.  If the allied player is the newbie and the axis the stronger player, give the US 120 IPC’s per turn and see what they can do with them.

    It’s important that money is not everything in this game.  It’s far more important what you do with those IPC’s than how many you have.

    Also, Why hasn’t anybody commented on how easy it is for USA to gobble up an extra 6 bucks in South America???

    Becuase that gives Italy 8 inf in Turkey, Germany 6 inf in Spain and 6 inf in Sweden



  • It does leave Turkey open,
    But I usually do it simultaneously with an assault on Spain via the sea and Gibraltar, and an attack on Sweden via the sea and or Norway which I hope to have captured by then.

    This does leave Turkey, and so far I haven’t had enough forces (especially soviet) to take Turkey down, but I think its more than a fair trade at that point.
    I know this is off topic, but I think that after the 4th or 5th turns, the Allies have a much better shot at gobbling up the neutrals than the axis do, so why not get that extra money?



  • The rules of the old Europe says:

    On turns 3 & 4 it increases to 30 pp. Then 40 pp on turns 5 & 6. Then 50 pp turns 7 & 8. Increasing production – On turns 1 & 2, US base pp’s are 20 ( 50 % of the given ). Reaching a maximum of 60 pp from turn nine

    So maybe we can use this for Global too? 🙂



  • @GoekaWar:

    The rules of the old Europe says:

    On turns 3 & 4 it increases to 30 pp. Then 40 pp on turns 5 & 6. Then 50 pp turns 7 & 8. Increasing production – On turns 1 & 2, US base pp’s are 20 ( 50 % of the given ). Reaching a maximum of 60 pp from turn nine

    So maybe we can use this for Global too? 🙂

    I think if you use something like that for Global Japan will invade the Western US and/or take Hawaii. US needs 52 IPC pre-war to make up for its lack of units. Otherwise Japan will run roughshod over the US in the Pacific and a smart Axis player will try to co-ordinate a German attack on US as well (after a successful Sea Lion of course). I have yet to hear a concrete argument for the US having too much money. I stand by my previous post that a smart Axis player will neuter the UK and start punishing Russia as the US enters the war. Japan has to put pressure on the US. I think when people post things like US threw everything Atlantic that the player paying Japan is not doing his job. Japan must force the US to spend a majority of it’s pre-war income building a fleet and air force. If the US is building invasion fleets in the Atlantic pre-war the Axis have already lost.



  • @dadler12:

    If the US is building invasion fleets in the Atlantic pre-war the Axis have already lost.

    So you’re suggesting a J1 or J2 attack?

    I think a big issue is that Japan cannot be both a economic juggernaut and a credible threat to the US. If you think making a significant landing across the Atlantic is hard on the US budget, try invading the US across the Pacific as Japan.

    The first global game I played as Japan, the Russians and UK both attacked Japan early, and I was using all my money and airforce just to keep my mainland holdings. ANZAC pumped out fighters and landed them in the DEI, and the UK pulled all of its African forces to India. The US only had to maintain a token Pacific force. Japan was eventually able to win the mainland china fight, but it took them a while to get up to where they would be had they attacked J1. BTW, Germany had a successful Sealion, but the combined super-US and Russia were way too much for them.

    Should I have attacked J1? Should a 30ipc Japan have devoted its navy and airforce to taking Hawaii and threatening the US? And with what? What Japanese invasion force could take and keep Western US for more than a turn? You would need a massive amount of ground troops and a fleet of transports. And if you’re buying those, are you just sacrificing the mainland? How are you going to take the DEI? Do you take the Philippines?

    Japan needs money. They are not even a threat to UK/Anzac with their starting IPCs, let alone the US. If they are going to get money, they need to fight in the islands or the DEI, which means not threatening the US. I don’t think that an 82 IPC Japan could be a threat to the US, even spending all their money on transports and troops.



  • I think Japan should wait as long as possible to bring the US into war. Also Japan starts out with enough units to crush the US fleet in the Pacific and if it positions its fleet accordingly it can force the US to build Pacific. Is should add that the Euro Axis have to have enough air/naval units well positioned to force the US to build an Atlantic navy as well (not just transports). If the Axis do this the US will have spent most it’s money on a navy and air force and won’t have 5 loaded transports in the Atlantic ready to head to Gibraltar and kill Italy. Japan should take half of China by round 2, kill Russia or let it retreat to Europe, and position itself to take DEI, Kwangtung, and maybe Malaya round 3. If you can get UK/ANZAC to attack you before turn 3, awesome! Now the US wont be moving units to Europe and making 80+ IPC until round 4. When I played as Japan I dominated the Pacific, took India, crushed China, and never attacked Russia (Russia moved his troops west). Axis ending up winning that game because I drew the majority of US IPC Pacific and the US/UK didn’t spend enough on Europe which resulted in Germany taking Moscow. The Axis will win if they are aggressive early and do not bring the US into the war until turn 3 or the end of US turn 3. When a smart axis does this, a US with 100+ IPC is not enough. Make the US react. It’s troops are so far from the front that if you force the US to react to you instead of making long term plans, you will win every time.



  • @dadler12:

    I think Japan should wait as long as possible to bring the US into war. Also Japan starts out with enough units to crush the US fleet in the Pacific and if it positions its fleet accordingly it can force the US to build Pacific. Is should add that the Euro Axis have to have enough air/naval units well positioned to force the US to build an Atlantic navy as well (not just transports). If the Axis do this the US will have spent most it’s money on a navy and air force and won’t have 5 loaded transports in the Atlantic ready to head to Gibraltar and kill Italy. Japan should take half of China by round 2, kill Russia or let it retreat to Europe, and position itself to take DEI, Kwangtung, and maybe Malaya round 3. If you can get UK/ANZAC to attack you before turn 3, awesome! Now the US wont be moving units to Europe and making 80+ IPC until round 4. When I played as Japan I dominated the Pacific, took India, crushed China, and never attacked Russia (Russia moved his troops west). Axis ending up winning that game because I drew the majority of US IPC Pacific and the US/UK didn’t spend enough on Europe which resulted in Germany taking Moscow. The Axis will win if they are aggressive early and do not bring the US into the war until turn 3 or the end of US turn 3. When a smart axis does this, a US with 100+ IPC is not enough. Make the US react. It’s troops are so far from the front that if you force the US to react to you instead of making long term plans, you will win every time.

    Perfectly said

    The US makes more than enough and in most of our games in crying for more money. European troops can easily force the US to build a large escort fleet. Japan can easily feint or even attack Hawaii and US navy troops. I always make it look like I am going to hit the US hard on J3 and then have the troops positioned to instead hit half the DEI, Philippines, Kwangtung etc… A smart Japanese player will rule the Pacific and have all of the allies there running scared. Perhaps what we really need is a Japanese strategy thread so that people can see how to make Japan the USA’s direct rival. It is not hard with well positioned navy, air force and factories Japan can push back the allies on all fronts.



  • @Blitchga:

    @dadler12:

    I think Japan should wait as long as possible to bring the US into war. Also Japan starts out with enough units to crush the US fleet in the Pacific and if it positions its fleet accordingly it can force the US to build Pacific. Is should add that the Euro Axis have to have enough air/naval units well positioned to force the US to build an Atlantic navy as well (not just transports). If the Axis do this the US will have spent most it’s money on a navy and air force and won’t have 5 loaded transports in the Atlantic ready to head to Gibraltar and kill Italy. Japan should take half of China by round 2, kill Russia or let it retreat to Europe, and position itself to take DEI, Kwangtung, and maybe Malaya round 3. If you can get UK/ANZAC to attack you before turn 3, awesome! Now the US wont be moving units to Europe and making 80+ IPC until round 4. When I played as Japan I dominated the Pacific, took India, crushed China, and never attacked Russia (Russia moved his troops west). Axis ending up winning that game because I drew the majority of US IPC Pacific and the US/UK didn’t spend enough on Europe which resulted in Germany taking Moscow. The Axis will win if they are aggressive early and do not bring the US into the war until turn 3 or the end of US turn 3. When a smart axis does this, a US with 100+ IPC is not enough. Make the US react. It’s troops are so far from the front that if you force the US to react to you instead of making long term plans, you will win every time.

    Perfectly said

    The US makes more than enough and in most of our games in crying for more money. European troops can easily force the US to build a large escort fleet. Japan can easily feint or even attack Hawaii and US navy troops. I always make it look like I am going to hit the US hard on J3 and then have the troops positioned to instead hit half the DEI, Philippines, Kwangtung etc… A smart Japanese player will rule the Pacific and have all of the allies there running scared. Perhaps what we really need is a Japanese strategy thread so that people can see how to make Japan the USA’s direct rival. It is not hard with well positioned navy, air force and factories Japan can push back the allies on all fronts.

    Not necesarily.

    First of all, USA shouldn’t buy any transporters in the first one or 2 turns (unless a J1 already provoced war and the situation réally demands it).

    They can build op their Atlantic escort fleet (they need it anyway - sending only transports to Gibraltar is a waste of IPC) and ground units (placed in Central USA so they can board in the Pacific or move to W-USA the turn you buy transports there - to board there the next turn).
    That keeps the Axis a little bit in the dark as where they will move to (and keeps USA’s options open).

    USA should take its time and not rush into things. Build up slowly. It’s better to wait a turn and have a fleet you won’t lose. USA has money, that doesn’t mean it can just throw it away.

    Personally i like to start with buying subs (useful for both the european as the pacific side) and ground units (they will always be used sooner or later). And destroyers if needed.
    Subs can be sent into position early without much risk (since Axis will hesitate to go get them to keep USA out of the war, and they’re safe from german subs as well - and later they can join with the escort fleet, of raid UK’s convoys if a Sealion has succeeded), the destroyer can take possible future blocking positions.

    The next turns build up that warfleet and when you’re ready to take off, a load of transporters as well.

    Also, as USA i feel no real threat. It’s enough out of reach to see any meaningful attack coming. In fact, it would not be smart at all as Axis to try to attack America.

    UK-Anzac should always wait to attack until turn 3.

    Edit: USA needs that big income 😉



  • Some US and Japanese players can virtually ignore the other for several turns.

    if i am America and am heck bent on retaking england it really does not concern me if Japan takes hawaii. I will just build enough land units in the western US.

    As Japan I play this suck America close game if the do build in the Pacific.  The Carolines make it a little more difficult to ignore America in Global.



  • IF UK/ANZAC attack US round 3 then Japan should not attack US and force the US to declare war during it’s collect income phase. A UK/ANZAC attack on Japan at any time is not the best move IMO as a smart Japan will use it to keep the US out of the war until US round 4. A US that buys subs and ground units instead of carriers is also not the smartest move IMO as the US should build either 2 carriers Pacific round 1 or 1 carrier Pacific and one Atlantic IMO. The US has enough ground forces to begin with, you should make sure you have transports for all of your starting ground units before you buy more IMO. If you spend your money on subs, destroyers, and ground forces instead of carriers, destroyers, cruisers, battleships, air units, and transports, a smart Japan will be able to pull off a pearl harbor style attack and sink a US fleet that comes anywhere near Hawaii, Midway, or Wake. Remember Japan’s strength in the Pacific is it has a navy large enough to soak up hits for it’s air force, and subs can’t take those hits from the air. Result, you lose your surface fleet and your air force as the US and keep your subs. Your point of keeping US ground forces in Central America however, is a good one and one I will definitely do next time I play as US to keep the axis guessing.



  • @MarkVIIIMarc:

    Some US and Japanese players can virtually ignore the other for several turns.

    if i am America and am heck bent on retaking england it really does not concern me if Japan takes hawaii. I will just build enough land units in the western US.

    As Japan I play this suck America close game if the do build in the Pacific.  The Carolines make it a little more difficult to ignore America in Global.

    If the US lets Japan take Hawaii odds are it will knock ANZAC out of the game before the US arrives to help it, and dominate the Pacific in such a way that US will never be able to rebuild a fleet in sz 10. Big mistake. Let Germany build one or two rounds in UK. In my games the US always takes UK back after Sea Lion (it’s only a matter of one or two turns with all the money US will have by then), and it usually causes Germany to spend too much holding UK so after you take it Western Europe is empty and the Soviets are rolling through East Europe. Sorry about IMO Calvin, I will stop using it if it annoys you.



  • I agree the USA has to much IPC power for a competitive game.  It seems that if all players are equally skilled in their gameplay that the Allies will always win.  I would be interested if anyone has tried a game with no IPC bonus for the US.  This may allow for a balanced competitive game.



  • @Geoscal:

    I agree the USA has to much IPC power for a competitive game.  It seems that if all players are equally skilled in their gameplay that the Allies will always win.  I would be interested if anyone has tried a game with no IPC bonus for the US.  This may allow for a balanced competitive game.

    52 ipcs? Allies will always lose. Japan will make 60 ipcs, Germany 60, Italy 20. In a Sealion Game, US makes 52, Russia 40(being very generous), and ANZAC 15. 140 to 107. Even with 82, it’as a tough match



  • Has anyone calculated the TUV of the starting units? Because from what I’ve seen the Axis start out with so many more units that if the US made only 52 IPC the Allies would never catch up to the Axis in terms of IPC and units.



  • @dadler12:

    Has anyone calculated the TUV of the starting units? Because from what I’ve seen the Axis start out with so many more units that if the US made only 52 IPC the Allies would never catch up to the Axis in terms of IPC and units.

    Actually, I counted it a month ago and remember that the allies start with a slight advantage, but G1 kills 2 allied BB’s, 3 CC’s, and numerous infantry and a ftr for a few subs and inf. Addditionally, Germany gets 9 more inf by activating neutrals



  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    @dadler12:

    Has anyone calculated the TUV of the starting units? Because from what I’ve seen the Axis start out with so many more units that if the US made only 52 IPC the Allies would never catch up to the Axis in terms of IPC and units.

    Actually, I counted it a month ago and remember that the allies start with a slight advantage, but G1 kills 2 allied BB’s, 3 CC’s, and numerous infantry and a ftr for a few subs and inf. Addditionally, Germany gets 9 more inf by activating neutrals

    Really? Are you talking about OOB setup or Alpha? With either, after round 1 the Axis (unless being played by goons) have more units no?



  • @dadler12:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    @dadler12:

    Has anyone calculated the TUV of the starting units? Because from what I’ve seen the Axis start out with so many more units that if the US made only 52 IPC the Allies would never catch up to the Axis in terms of IPC and units.

    Actually, I counted it a month ago and remember that the allies start with a slight advantage, but G1 kills 2 allied BB’s, 3 CC’s, and numerous infantry and a ftr for a few subs and inf. Addditionally, Germany gets 9 more inf by activating neutrals

    Really? Are you talking about OOB setup or Alpha? With either, after round 1 the Axis (unless being played by goons) have more units no?

    My calculations are for OOB, but Alpha should be similar since both sides lose the same number of planes.

    Yes, after Round 1 the axis have a greater TUV



  • @dadler12:

    IF UK/ANZAC attack US round 3 then Japan should not attack US and force the US to declare war during it’s collect income phase. A UK/ANZAC attack on Japan at any time is not the best move IMO as a smart Japan will use it to keep the US out of the war until US round 4.

    it doesn’t matter anymore in turn 3, UK/ANZAC play after Japan and USA will have it’s extra money at the end of its turn anyway.

    @dadler12:

    A US that buys subs and ground units instead of carriers is also not the smartest move IMO as the US should build either 2 carriers Pacific round 1 or 1 carrier Pacific and one Atlantic IMO. The US has enough ground forces to begin with, you should make sure you have transports for all of your starting ground units before you buy more IMO. If you spend your money on subs, destroyers, and ground forces instead of carriers, destroyers, cruisers, battleships, air units, and transports, a smart Japan will be able to pull off a pearl harbor style attack and sink a US fleet that comes anywhere near Hawaii, Midway, or Wake. Remember Japan’s strength in the Pacific is it has a navy large enough to soak up hits for it’s air force, and subs can’t take those hits from the air. Result, you lose your surface fleet and your air force as the US and keep your subs. Your point of keeping US ground forces in Central America however, is a good one and one I will definitely do next time I play as US to keep the axis guessing.

    When buying subs (and destroyers) there is usually not much money left to buy ground troops, i admit. DOn’t get me wrong i didn’t mean to imply to buy 20 inf 😉
    But i also mentioned to build up your fleet. just: warships first (some airforce, BB, AC etc), transports when it is getting time to get into action.

    The point of the subs is to send them ahead (but not to their death), while the more vulnerable surface fleet will follow later.
    As for surface fleet, i was kinda talking about an Atlantic fleet.

    If the Japanese fleet is getting too close, that is indeed another story and at that place subs are useless, i agree.
    But of course, USA should watch it’s fleet abit. Although provoking a Pearl Harbour could be interesting early in the game
    (to get USA into war)



  • I am not sure if I have just stumbled upon excellent axis strategy but the allies are finding it hard pressed to win in our last few games. We had a massive winning streak for the allies but now they cannot seem to counter to axis strategies that are being put out.

    One thing I can say with absolute conviction is that the USA does not make to much. They are well balanced, and while things could be changed to allow for variances in play style they should have a lower income.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

  • 9
  • 9
  • 10
  • 17
  • 5
  • 13
  • 23
  • 18
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

64
Online

14.4k
Users

34.9k
Topics

1.4m
Posts