Isnt the game just broken if USA builds a major factory in Norway?


  • In Europe, it appears that Germany can take Moscow and 8 cities before the U.S. gets involved. Its no guarantee, but its a game.  I realize Russia gets 9 extra IPCs in Global, which is 18 extra infantry in Moscow by turn 6. But in reality its only 1 more infantry than the 2 free ones they would normally get. Germany may still seize Moscow if its only 6 extra units.

    Can the Japanese air force fly to Europe by turn 8 to sweep the sea of ships? 28 planes can hit a 10 stack in Norway and clear it in 1 combat round while only losing 3-4 planes. Eventually you will run out of air units, but how many rounds will that buy you? If the U.S. is focused on Europe, seems like you won’t need them in the Pacific.

    Just a thought.


  • @JamesAleman:

    In Europe, it appears that Germany can take Moscow and 8 cities before the U.S. gets involved. Its no guarantee, but its a game.  I realize Russia gets 9 extra IPCs in Global, which is 18 extra infantry in Moscow by turn 6. But in reality its only 1 more infantry than the 2 free ones they would normally get. Germany may still seize Moscow if its only 6 extra units.

    Can the Japanese air force fly to Europe by turn 8 to sweep the sea of ships? 28 planes can hit a 10 stack in Norway and clear it in 1 combat round while only losing 3-4 planes. Eventually you will run out of air units, but how many rounds will that buy you? If the U.S. is focused on Europe, seems like you won’t need them in the Pacific.

    Just a thought.

    1. I love how 28 planes survive until J6 and their absence in the pacific isn’t taken advantage of
    2. Larry’s latest setup changes remove 9 of those planes


  • We played a game of Global this weekend.  We made it a rule that new factories could only be built on originally controlled territories.  Captured major factories become minor.  Captured minor factories were removed.  US has enough IPC’s that it should have to transport.  Besides, Sherman Tanks rolling out of Oslo?  How realistic is that?

    Otherwise, I agree with IL.  US factory in Norway is high probability lights out.


  • @BlueIguana:

    We played a game of Global this weekend.  We made it a rule that new factories could only be built on originally controlled territories.  Captured major factories become minor.  Captured minor factories were removed.  US has enough IPC’s that it should have to transport.  Besides, Sherman Tanks rolling out of Oslo?  How realistic is that?

    Otherwise, I agree with IL.  US factory in Norway is high probability lights out.

    DId you also apply it to the Chinese territories that have Chinese roundels printed on them but start under Japanese rule?


  • Do you think that if Japan moves fast and crushes India it can beat the allies to Moscow or will they be too late?


  • @13thguardsriflediv:

    @BlueIguana:

    We played a game of Global this weekend.  We made it a rule that new factories could only be built on originally controlled territories.  Captured major factories become minor.  Captured minor factories were removed.  US has enough IPC’s that it should have to transport.  Besides, Sherman Tanks rolling out of Oslo?  How realistic is that?

    Otherwise, I agree with IL.  US factory in Norway is high probability lights out.

    DId you also apply it to the Chinese territories that have Chinese roundels printed on them but start under Japanese rule?

    13th Guard,

    Yes, those were considered original Japanese territories since they were held at the beginning of the Game.

  • Customizer

    Just to recap my own long standing house rules re factories:

    No new factories ANYWHERE.

    No use of captured factories EVER.

    The only possible exception is the Soviet factory to the south of the Urals; even this should arguably be in place in 1940 as an industrial complex, though it is generally accepted that the movement of military production facilities here from area evacuated from the Western USSR made it what we could accept as an industrial complex for A&A purposes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankograd

    I’d start with a factory in Kiev (West Ukraine) and give the (when at war with G/I) Russian player the option to dismantle it and move it to the Novosibirsk tt, which should have 2 IPCs.

    To balance this, a player can place purchased infantry in any home tt up to the value of that tt.  This allows, for example, the UK to place infantry in India (India is not industrial and should not have a factory), or Japan to raise them in Siam, a more realistic reflection of troop recruitment in non-industrialised areas.

    The removal of captured minors seems a little drastic, though I assume that, for example, the  Paris factory is never removed however many times it is captured and recaptured.


  • @JamesAleman:

    In Europe, it appears that Germany can take Moscow and 8 cities before the U.S. gets involved. Its no guarantee, but its a game.  I realize Russia gets 9 extra IPCs in Global, which is 18 extra infantry in Moscow by turn 6. But in reality its only 1 more infantry than the 2 free ones they would normally get. Germany may still seize Moscow if its only 6 extra units.

    Can the Japanese air force fly to Europe by turn 8 to sweep the sea of ships? 28 planes can hit a 10 stack in Norway and clear it in 1 combat round while only losing 3-4 planes. Eventually you will run out of air units, but how many rounds will that buy you? If the U.S. is focused on Europe, seems like you won’t need them in the Pacific.

    Just a thought.

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    1. I love how 28 planes survive until J6 and their absence in the pacific isn’t taken advantage of
    2. Larry’s latest setup changes remove 9 of those planes

    1. 28 planes is what they start with OOB and yes conservative attacks could see most of them alive, and I said “if the U.S. is focused on Europe” meaning you won’t need all of them there, obviously it might slow Japan down if moved too early, but mid game its less likely you will need them (after you have India) especially if the U.S. is spending in Europe only (an assumption). Its probably silly if you only get 15 planes there, as that will have no impact on a fleet or stack of 10 units. (sarcasm)

    2. This thread is regarding AAG40 and does not specify which set up people are using, to the best of my knowledge, Larry’s revision is still a work in progress and if that statement is correct, not official yet.  I apologize as my idea to counter a “game ending” territory capture is completely silly and has no merit if you only have 19 planes to throw at 10 units or a fleet. (sarcasm)

    I’m sorry, I won’t try to refute that the axis are completely helpless from a given strategy being employed against them. Feel free to surrender immediately if you have or are about to capture 14 victory cities but the U.S. has landed that turn in Norway.

    Maybe its silly to throw planes away, and I would agree, but if the game was “over” in your mind unless you “do” something, then it “could” buy you time. It was just a suggestion. Lack of posted suggestions would lend merit to this threads premise that the game was “broken”. Meaning your decisions in game are irrelevant to the outcome. I’ll try to make more certain statements and avoid the use of words like maybe, seems, may, can or how when posted ideas in my future posts.

    Also, in regards to a U.S. Norway, I have seen a game in which the German player chose to take Norway 3 turns after the landing by redirecting the Moscow stack. Russia is likely defensive vs a Germany kill Russia first. If Japan is successful in Asia, perhaps letting Japan take Moscow would work. Perhaps, or perhaps there is nothing the axis can do. Its up to you to decide.


  • @larrymarx:

    Has anyone considered a primarily naval Germany?

    The idea struck me when I was considering what to do once Germany takes London.

    Uhh If Germany takes London it’s also game over.  Another part of the game I don’t believe has been play tested enough with the initial setup.  It doesn’t take too much luck for Germany to take out UK since it has literally 3 turns to do so.


  • @hobo:

    @larrymarx:

    Has anyone considered a primarily naval Germany?

    The idea struck me when I was considering what to do once Germany takes London.

    Uhh If Germany takes London it’s also game over.  Another part of the game I don’t believe has been play tested enough with the initial setup.  It doesn’t take too much luck for Germany to take out UK since it has literally 3 turns to do so.

    It’s not game over. US can easily liberate London unless Germany ignores Russia


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    @hobo:

    @larrymarx:

    Has anyone considered a primarily naval Germany?

    The idea struck me when I was considering what to do once Germany takes London.

    Uhh If Germany takes London it’s also game over.  Another part of the game I don’t believe has been play tested enough with the initial setup.  It doesn’t take too much luck for Germany to take out UK since it has literally 3 turns to do so.

    It’s not game over. US can easily liberate London unless Germany ignores Russia

    Agreed.  It most definitely is NOT over.  Look at my Sealion thread in the PBF games with jim10.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    Still… I am thinking a USA IC in Norway signals the beginning of the end for Deutschland. Even if the US pays only token attention to Japan, if Germany is boxed and kept from advancing… the Axis lose.


  • If US ignores Japan then Japan should build a ton of tranports and shuck the US - not a wee raid, but a maximum build shuck. Try defending Norway AND San Francisco…


  • Lets keep some perspective here.  US can only take territory on turn 4 if the axis want it that way.  So turn 5 they build the factory, turn 6 it starts producing units.

    Sorry I’m not seeing it.  I can’t see how they can take and hold it by then against a decent german player.  And if the allies are throwing the kitchen sink in the north, then Italy gets to roam free in the middle east.  It could be a powerful strat, but I don’t see it being overpowered.  No more so than gunning for Italy hardcore.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @bugoo:

    Lets keep some perspective here.  US can only take territory on turn 4 if the axis want it that way.  So turn 5 they build the factory, turn 6 it starts producing units.

    Sorry I’m not seeing it.  I can’t see how they can take and hold it by then against a decent german player.  And if the allies are throwing the kitchen sink in the north, then Italy gets to roam free in the middle east.  It could be a powerful strat, but I don’t see it being overpowered.  No more so than gunning for Italy hardcore.

    The only person who needs to throw the sink in at Norway is the US. Britain can focus wherever she pleases or wherever is helpful. If the US doesn’t enter the war until turn 4 then that means India will like wise be a fortress and can likely send some help to the Middle East. And even if the US isn’t in the war until turn 4, they’ll be ready to go with a factory in Norway and hit the ground running. Considering that Germany will generally not attack the USSR until turn 3… welll then, there is plenty of time for a factory to be useful. Germany cannot take Moscow by turn 5. They can barely take Leningrad or Stalingrad by that time. The war should be no where near over by turn 5.


  • I saw the Norway Factory option the first time I looked at the map and read the rules.
    It is a powerfull strategy, but I agree with some of the things that are said here even though I don’t think that it’s necessarily a gamebreaker.
    It might be best to disallow the US to build a factory there.  Or at least only allow them a minor one.


  • @LHoffman:

    @bugoo:

    Lets keep some perspective here.  US can only take territory on turn 4 if the axis want it that way.  So turn 5 they build the factory, turn 6 it starts producing units.

    Sorry I’m not seeing it.  I can’t see how they can take and hold it by then against a decent german player.  And if the allies are throwing the kitchen sink in the north, then Italy gets to roam free in the middle east.  It could be a powerful strat, but I don’t see it being overpowered.  No more so than gunning for Italy hardcore.

    The only person who needs to throw the sink in at Norway is the US. Britain can focus wherever she pleases or wherever is helpful. If the US doesn’t enter the war until turn 4 then that means India will like wise be a fortress and can likely send some help to the Middle East. And even if the US isn’t in the war until turn 4, they’ll be ready to go with a factory in Norway and hit the ground running. Considering that Germany will generally not attack the USSR until turn 3… welll then, there is plenty of time for a factory to be useful. Germany cannot take Moscow by turn 5. They can barely take Leningrad or Stalingrad by that time. The war should be no where near over by turn 5.

    Actually the UK is hard pressed to keep Italy honest alone, esp in the face of a G1 carrier buy.  Italy will take egypt etc, its just a question of how long they hold it.

    As far as India being a ‘fortress’ in the case of a turn 3 war dec?  Again not really.  They are missing out on 5 IPCs turn 1, and 10 on turn 2 in the case of a J3 war dec from NOs they would get in pacific.  Yeah they’ll have a stack of Inf, big deal.  Russia will be delt with, china will nearly be dead and Russia will start having to worry about her backdoor from china or get thin against Germany, and Japan still has as many planes as the UK has infantry.  Your looking at 16 turn 1 (5 inf) 24 turn 2 (8 inf), and your turn 3 income will go back down to the low teens at the most after you buy 27 (9) inf.  Thats what, 5+8+6+9 = 28 inf, +4 from malanya if your lucky.  Big deal, Japan has 28 planes.

    And I’m saying at earliest turn 5.  I typically have a stack of germans in the north for much longer in case of that, not to mention an insane stack of planes so good luck holding it that early.  And I’m starting to see the value in a german finland factory.

    But, as Jim would say, if your up for a game send me a message and we’ll get one going  :evil:


  • the norway factory eventually finished me as the axis; now i’ve learned that holding norway (and denmark for that matter) is extremely important. next time i’ll either build my own IC there or keep transports and aircraft ready to take it back immediately!!

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @bugoo:

    But, as Jim would say, if your up for a game send me a message and we’ll get one going  :evil:

    I don’t know who Jim is… But I’d love to play a game with you. I don’t do online games though. Or at least I never have before.

    So what turn do you attack USSR with Germany? If you wait until G3, then Russia will at least be defensible, if not well positioned. By turn 3 (providing Japan war declaration) the US can have presence enough to cause Axis problems. They can strike out for Italy, Japan or Germany and make the Axis player recall some of his offense. I just don’t see how, even on turn 3, Germany cannot be everywhere. It cannot have a  (respectable) navy, an “insane” stack of planes, a dissuasive presence in Norway, a defensible position in France AND a resolved push into Russia… there is no way to handle all of these competing factors with total zeal. If you can prove me wrong then do it. I would love to see it so that I too can know how it is done. Germany is the hardest balancing act in the entire game. The Axis have a lot of clout, but after turn 4 or 5 the magic is gone and it really becomes a hard and dirty war for them, at least for Germany.

    If the US can get a factory in Norway and the other Allies are still breathing (and Japan doesn’t have all Asia and Africa)… The Axis will lose. That is my prediction.


  • Germany starts with 2 guys up there, gets 4 for activating Finland, plus can transport 2 first round.  Assuming said transport survives until turn 4 lets say, thats another 6 guys for a total of 14 troops up there when the US comes knocking.  Those guys normally do not advance in my games unless they are needed, they sit in Finland as a threat to Russia.

    A simple carrier buy lets you threaten sea lion to keep UK honest turn 1.  Then you simply move back to the baltic if you have too, possibly adding a destroyer and a smattering of subs as you go.  In the baltic your boats are pretty difficult to get too.

    You start with 8 planes, should loose 2 at most on turn 1.  You can easily purchase a plane a turn or so.  Combined with a sub or two the UK/US is forced to have a respectable fleet to do landings.

    Italy should hit 30 income around turn 2.  Thats 10 ground troops to help cover and allows you to make difficult to kill stacks.

    Germany has 3 production in france, 3 in Normady, and 10 right next door.  It is very easy to place a few troops a turn there to build up and incase of a large threat do a large drop the turn before.

    There are two main ways to threaten Russia, either with numbers or mobility and your income allows you to choose.  Mech infantry with Italian can openers are extremely deadly, there 4 IPC blitzers in that regard.  Ukraine is a great place for a large stack of 'em.  Alternately, you can send 15+ inf/art at 'em and simply out produce them.  They will start to loose money fast once war is declared between Germany, Italy, and Japan wailing on 'em.

    AA40e bugoo vs jim 01bUK.AAM


  • @keplar:

    the norway factory eventually finished me as the axis; now i’ve learned that holding norway (and denmark for that matter) is extremely important. next time i’ll either build my own IC there or keep transports and aircraft ready to take it back immediately!!

    The problem is that when being the Germans and not pursueing a Sea Lion strategy, investing in transports (and in accompanying vessels to keep them alive) is basically a waste of IPCs. Therefore I still believe the Germans are much better off building a (major) IC in Norway themselves. That way they can both be used defensively and if that’s not necessary, you can move them to the Eastern front which is only two turns away in the case of infantry and one in thecase of tanks ans mech. infantry.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Koningstiger:

    @keplar:

    the norway factory eventually finished me as the axis; now i’ve learned that holding norway (and denmark for that matter) is extremely important. next time i’ll either build my own IC there or keep transports and aircraft ready to take it back immediately!!

    The problem is that when being the Germans and not pursueing a Sea Lion strategy, investing in transports (and in accompanying vessels to keep them alive) is basically a waste of IPCs. Therefore I still believe the Germans are much better off building a (major) IC in Norway themselves. That way they can both be used defensively and if that’s not necessary, you can move them to the Eastern front which is only two turns away in the case of infantry and one in thecase of tanks ans mech. infantry.

    Building one there yourself can be helpful for sure. But it also just adds more  incentive for the Allies to take it. Besides, it will spread your production out even further. Which isn’t good of you are looking to defend the factories themselves.

    I wouldn’t be totally against the strategy though. I could see benefits in certain applications.


  • @Chompers#2:

    US spending in Pacific is a viable way to get an allied win.  The problem seems to be that spending all in the Atlantic is an even more viable way to win.

    If anything, the game is “broken” because the Allies are too strong in general, and hence can gain the upper hand from a variety of strategies and approaches.  It the power imbalance, not the specific strategy, which is (potentially) the problem.

    If Germany can’t hold USA out of Norway long enought for the Axis to counquer Middle East, India, and Africa, cripple Russia, and gain a favourable economic position, then the game may be imbalanced.  But don’t blame the the Norwegian factory - This is a symptom of a (possible) problem.

    Incidentally, If Germany buys a carrier round one it’s going to be very hard for USA to secure Norway.

  • '18 '17 '16 '15 Customizer

    @zooooma:

    Incidentally, If Germany buys a carrier round one it’s going to be very hard for USA to secure Norway.

    I would say, “If GErmany buys a carrier AND 2 transports on G1…” then it would be hard for the US to hold Norway. The carrier helps level some offensive firepower at Norway, but most of your planes can make it there anyway. Although, the carrier is particularly good protection for the transports. Locking up a “fair” German fleet in the Baltic is not a bad idea. Given enough support ships and transports, Norway is defensible. Plus you can move men to the front in Russia more quickly, or threaten Leningrad; which is what I am doing now.

    It would be terrible for Germany if the US established a major factory in Norway, because with the British and Americans reinforcing it, there is just no way to hold it. It would be difficult for Germany to mount Eastern front operations and squabble over an IC across the Baltic.


  • I played as Germany last night, Built a factory in Norway of turn one and built 3 tanks there (plus 1 AA gun) every turn.  It worked as a great defense in the north, kept my enemy down in the south near Italy, and also I had 8 tanks to send in with infantry when I attacked Russia on Turn 4.  Might not work every time, but It’s not the worst place to build your factory, especially if you don’t want your opponent building his there.  P.S. I still lost the game, but it was because of Italy, it was my first time being the Axis, and only my 4th real game.  I’ll do better next time.

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