Would it be crazy to wait until turn 2 to take France with Germany?


  • I work nights and while thinking about a faster way to engage Russia, it occurred to me that I might safely delay taking France until turn 2.

    The reason to wait, is that the 5 armor and 4 mechanized units I usually put into France could head to Russia (9 fast moving units) instead, I could send some or all of the infantry and artillery I usually send towards Russia to France. In addition, I could use my air force round 1 against the UK fleet and Round 2 against France…I was thinking about building a minor complex in Romania turn 1 and 3 Mech. in Germany(then 6 Mech a turn afterwards from the two minor factories), with 2 infantry in W. Germany for turn 2 attack.

    Turn 1 Most of my aircraft could land in N. Italy to defend the Italians there from a French attack, South German infantry could also go into N. Italy, with German infantry and artillery meeting Belgium units in W. Germany. I would not take any French Territories as I would still want to capture 17 IPCs round 2 (20 if they take Belgium).

    I expect France would build 5 units, move 3 others into France and UK might land 3 fighters and a Tactical in there too, for a total of 24 units Round 2. If German infantry and artillery head towards Russia, the other territories could mass 15 infantry(2 produced), 3 artillery and your air force for a total of 26 units. 36 units if you add the 6 infantry and 4 artillery from Germany.

    I could then attack Eastern Poland round 1 with 7 infantry 4 Mechanized and 5 armor (16 pieces). Or 5 Infantry if I wanted to leave infantry in Poland and Romania. Would Russia be able to counter attack? I’m guessing not.

    Basically by waiting I spend 6 IPCs to take France turn 2, but gain 9 units closer or inside Russia. I will lose 4 IPCs from the France territory and 3 Italian IPCs from S. France, and probably lose more units this way. However if UK does land air units there, they would be destroyed. (If they don’t, the battle will be less costly) I expect 8 additional French units to add 3 hits a turn for maybe 2 combat rounds or more, say 6-9 more units lost. However, all French Territories would be empty.

    I would appreciate any first impressions to this idea. (Edit: worse case scenario: France could actually build its air craft carrier! Oh the humiliation)


  • If France were left alone, I would have it build 3 subs. Don’t send British planes there to be killed. My French ftr will also escape to the UK


  • Avoid Normandy if needed, but not Paris.  Do not want to give the French any options


  • I would for sure build an AA gun as France.


  • Since the reason for the G2 attack on France, is a G1 attack on the Soviet Union … what do you hope to gain from that fast push east?

    • A strong attack on Eastern Poland with no risk of counter attack doesn’t really get you anywhere. You’re not in a position to attack an important territory and the enemy still has plenty of time to organize a good defence.

    • The Soviet Union now receives 2 free infantry each turn, possibly a 5 IPC national objective and can go liberate neutral Persia for 2 extra free infantry and 2 IPC each turn. Economically it will gain more from a G1 attack then you will.

    • You still have only one strong army moving into the Soviet Union. Alone it can do nothing and will soon be defeated … where are the follow-up forces? The Red Army will grow by roughly 30 IPC each turn … probably more than Germany can afford to spend on the east that early in the game.

    Without a good reason to start the offensive in G1, you’re better of waiting a few turns.

    8-)


  • @Latro:

    • You still have only one strong army moving into the Soviet Union. Alone it can do nothing and will soon be defeated … where are the follow-up forces?

    8-)

    The 6 Mechanized a turn is the follow up forces, the reason for turn 1 attack is I believe its a race to get 8 cities before the U.S. can liberate one. 1 German sub in sz125 keeps Russia at 28 or less (if you are inside them) a turn, that equals 8 slow moving units or 7 fast moving pieces to your 6. The difference will be in the surviving German air force.

    I thought about 2 subs for France…They can go to Norway and remove 3 IPCs or head to the Mediterranean and remove 4 IPCs from Italy. That could be dealt with or ignored based on the game at hand.

    1 French fighter could prove to be a problem if moved to Africa or Syria. Again, I don’t think that will break you. But I would have to reflect on that further.

    If France builds and AA, but has no air units in it, then 17 units will remain vs 18 or 28 units if the Germans don’t send in an air force. Odds are building an AA would kill 1 air unit if you did send it in. Thats at the cost of 2 Infantry firing twice or also 1 hit. Hmmm.

    The UK land forces could take Belgium for an NO (8 IPC) swing, but I’m not sure if 8 IPCs towards a fleet or land foces would break you either. Would have to test this a few times.

    Delaying until round 2 is not without its sacrifices, but my main question is would that speed up the fall of Russia by at least 1 turn or more? I guess I’m wondering if that would give the axis a chance to win or make it harder.

    Thank you for the feedback, its helping me think of the pro’s and con’s of this idea.


  • … an additional and easy to overlook con:

    Not attacking France at all leaves the Allies with a naval base in Southern France. Now the small remains of the Italian fleet can not get out of range of the Allied naval units and will probably be destroyed as well during the second round … leaving Italy without any navy at all.

    8-)


  • Ignore france and it can lump up north italy


  • Why mech from Germany and Romania? Wouldn’t you want to be able to build Infantry closer to Russia, and then tanks/mech from West Germany?

    Or are you replacing infantry buys with mech buys?


  • @Dawsonstorm:

    Why mech from Germany and Romania? Wouldn’t you want to be able to build Infantry closer to Russia, and then tanks/mech from West Germany?

    Or are you replacing infantry buys with mech buys?

    I am thinking I would be replacing Infantry with Mech for the speed, Idea is to see how much faster Russia could fall, if at all. The ability to redirect your stack of units faster than Russia could help unless they also built mech instead of infantry. It seems attacking round 1 gives Russia 2 free units sooner, but I prefer that idea over letting Russia have 2-3 extra productions to prepare for a Round 4 declaration of war. Not sure if this Lightning war would give you the 3 victory cities in Russia any earlier than than normal. A good goal for the capture of Russia would be turn 6 or 7. The U.S.'s first light wave would be turn 5, by turn 7 they could hit your coastline with 13-14 transports. Each round after that could see 5 more transports a turn (9 land units) building up on Gibraltar. The turn you capture city number 8, they would have to strike Rome or Egypt to keep the game going. I favor a quick strike because I think longer term games would favor an allied win.

    In regards to the French fleet attacking Italy, Italy goes first and when faced with the UK1 Attack, I generally use the Cruiser and DD against the French units if available, however I usually lose the transport anyway, if you choose to defend instead, its a fair fight. I would be forced to pair this strategy with the Egypt capture on Turn 2 or 3 using German air(depending on whats in France and if UK built a factory) to clear strategy I posted on the Italy broken global forum.

    The drawbacks listed in this topic are building up. The question remains: would they be worth it? Does anyone see this as capturing Russia any sooner than a normal, less risky approach? I think we can all agree taking France turn one is otherwise preferred.


  • @oztea:

    Ignore france and it can lump up north italy

    You may have missed my earlier statement about landing some or all of the German air units round 1 on N. Italy after fleet clearing duties, plus sending some of the Southern Germany infantry to N. Italy for the round two capture of France.

    I believe you would prefer France to attack with its units on round 1, it would make capturing on Round 2 easier in my opinion.

    I suppose you could let them take N. Italy so that Germany could capture 20 IPCs instead of 17, however I do not think you want Italy losing a fighter, armor, and the rest of their forces for 4 more German IPCs. I would still just defend it.


  • yes


  • @JamesAleman:

    In regards to the French fleet attacking Italy, Italy goes first and when faced with the UK1 Attack, I generally use the Cruiser and DD against the French units if available, however I usually lose the transport anyway, if you choose to defend instead, its a fair fight. I would be forced to pair this strategy with the Egypt capture on Turn 2 or 3 using German air(depending on whats in France and if UK built a factory) to clear strategy I posted on the Italy broken global forum.

    What I meant was:

    Turn 1

    • UK attacks main Italian fleet with fighter + tactical bomber + destroyer + cruiser. Average result would be two hits in return (fighter + destroyer down), the remaining UK units with the UK carrier and a new fighter from the UK join the French fleet.
    • Second Italian fleet can’t do anything back and moves east.
    • French fleet does nothing.

    Turn 2

    • German Luftwaffe can attack the combined UK/French fleet, but losses would be heavy … not really an option if you plan to use the Luftwaffe for capturing France anyway.
    • UK attacks second Italian fleet with remaining units from the combined fleet and a new destroyer that enters through the Suez canal from down south.
    • Italy has no fleet left.
    • If anything Italian still floats, the French fleet can have some fun to.

    This would basically stop Italy from having any influence on the game at all … which is very bad for Germany too.

    8-)


  • Maybe it is sub optimal with this strategy, but Italy can secure Egypt turn 2 without a navy. It requires the German’s to lose 3-4 air units, but they clear Egypt and the Italians capture it.
    I would have to see what France produced and what UK did round 1.

    Your planes are staged in N. Italy, so either take Trans Jordan or Alexandria to provide a landing site.

    Without sending the carrier into the Italian Battleship fight, regardless of odds, our games have shown it to be too risky. Odds are the Italians miss once round one…I’ve yet to see that in 5 games. (The point is, a lucky roll in one round changes that outcome dramatically.)


  • Yes France has to fall turn 1 because otherwise the UK can renforce it. That means more losses turn 2. Its also one less turn Germany has to deal with the UK before America and Russia get into it.

    Its like asking “Would it be crazy to leave the UK with a fleet after turn 1?”

    Thats also yes…might as well conceede the game at that point.

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