Calvin found a loophole in Sealion that invalidates the UK naval block!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    It has come to my attention that Germany might get away with a 1 DD and 3 AP build and bring everything to SZ 112. Then on G1 ( regardless of what UK does) it can swing FROM THE OTHER SIDE and invade UK from her west coast ( SZ 109) using her port movement bonus. Germany needs to do two things to make this possible:

    Bring 4 tanks and 4 infantry from east front to west Germany, also UK needs to lose in a battle of 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD against 3 fighters. This is quite even. If it wins the German player loses her planes, but if they fail, UK will fall no matter what as Germany has now 4 tanks and 4 infantry landing ( before it was 6 units). Note that UK will lose planes in this fight too.

    IN a battle of 1 BB CA DD  ( 4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3) Germany should have the edge if the BB is undamaged.

    The UK cant prevent sealion with a naval block at all in SZ 110.

    They must instead abandon the attack against Italy and Bring the third plane ( tactical bomber) to UK giving them just 3 more.

    Good thinking Cal!

    Im thinking of a new plan now. With 30 IPC Germany might go with 3 transport build and a DD, forcing UK to attack 1 BB, 1 CA, and 1 DD with 3 fighters.

    4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3 and the BB gets two hits…

    But if the UK fails Germany now has 1 more tank and 1 infantry as soakers and UK lost a fighter or two.

    But think about it. It Gets worse!!!

    even if the German fleet is sunk, the transports can still land unopposed, because UK didn’t block! Of course they lost the BB and CA SB, but gained another 3 and 1 for soakers every round.

    The new line up is: 1 bomber, 4 fighters, 3 tactical, 4 tanks, 4 infantry= 16 units, vs. 12 UK infantry and perhaps 1 fighter for 13 units.

    Germany will take UK this way even better. Calvin good job.

    I now know for certain that Italy needs to be neutral till her own turn, or UK falls.



  • Then the only way is to attack the DD, CC and BB with 3 ftrs, 1 tac or 3 ftrs, 1 DD, or using both the DD and tac. However, if the tac is not used, it’s about 50-50, while if it is used, the carrier will be exposed


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Well yes the real battle is 3 fighters against BB, CA, DD on UK’s turn.

    Thats only if UK wins the battle and destroys the German transports. If they don’t they fail.

    who wins this wins UK or keeps UK from falling.

    The entire game is reduced to 2 turns of scripted moves and buys and getting average results, but hoping for better than average



  • @Imperious:

    Well yes the real battle is 3 fighters against BB, CA, DD on UK’s turn.

    Thats only if UK wins the battle and destroys the German transports. If they don’t they fail.

    who wins this wins UK or keeps UK from falling.

    The entire game is reduced to 2 turns of scripted moves and buys and getting average results, but hoping for better than average

    Why not add the tac and DD and even the CV? That makes it over 90% to kill the transports and the fleet



  • Are we so sure?
    Isnt the UK battle 3 Fighers and a Tactical Bomber? Agaisnt the German BB, CA, DD?

    IL wait, think about what you are saying……

    In SZ 112 UK can also throw a DD and its AC at your transport fleet to soak hits

    Sealion can not be done without a German Carrier…it just cant

    The battle UK 1 in SZ 112 is enourmously in UKs favor. AC(2 hits)/DD/3 FGT/1 TAC vs BB/CA/DD/4 TRN

    Good luck bro…


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Well the latest intelligence report arrived:

    Prerequisite: German build of 1 DD and 3 AP

    UK can just bring the infantry from Canada. with 2 in UK and 9 built we have 12 infantry and 3 fighters

    If we allocate the tactical bombers not at 4 but at 3 its an even battle

    http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html?&rules=3&aaGuns=true&battleType=1&attInfantry=4&attTank=4&attFighter=6&attBomber=1&attCruiser=1&attBattleship=1&defInfantry=12&defFighter=3

    86% win if UK attacks the Italian fleet.
    http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html?&rules=3&aaGuns=true&battleType=1&attInfantry=4&attTank=4&attFighter=4&attBomber=4&attCruiser=1&attBattleship=1&defInfantry=12&defFighter=2

    If Germans build 1 CV and 2 AP the battle is 67% win, if UK still attacks Italy fleet.

    If UK brings the tactical fighter to defend UK and attacks the German fleet with 3 fighters and CV and DD and kills one German plane, and saves its three fighters, then the German attack is defeated. But the British lose the last 3 ships they got.

    This is what is going on.

    http://www.dskelly.com/misc/aa/aasim.html?&rules=3&aaGuns=true&battleType=1&attInfantry=3&attTank=3&attFighter=4&attBomber=4&attCruiser=1&attBattleship=1&defInfantry=12&defFighter=2



  • @oztea:

    Are we so sure?
    Isnt the UK battle 3 Fighers and a Tactical Bomber? Agaisnt the German BB, CA, DD?

    IL wait, think about what you are saying……

    In SZ 112 UK can also throw a DD and its AC at your transport fleet to soak hits

    Sealion can not be done without a German Carrier…it just cant

    The battle UK 1 in SZ 112 is enourmously in UKs favor. AC(2 hits)/DD/3 FGT/1 TAC vs BB/CA/DD/4 TRN

    Good luck bro…

    I agree. Can someone please address this?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Isnt the UK battle 3 Fighers and a Tactical Bomber? Agaisnt the German BB, CA, DD?

    IL wait, think about what you are saying……

    In SZ 112 UK can also throw a DD and its AC at your transport fleet to soak hits

    Sealion can not be done without a German Carrier…it just cant

    The battle UK 1 in SZ 112 is enormously in UKs favor. AC(2 hits)/DD/3 FGT/1 TAC vs BB/CA/DD/4 TRN

    Of course that works! When did i say i did not? But the point is Italy keeps her navy and UK loses 2 more ships and a plane, while Germans loses 3 ships ( but still has AP and some subs)

    I didn’t say it didn’t work. I said UK must attack that fleet and this stops the attack against the Italian fleet.

    Thats my solution. UK can save but it cant also attack the Italian fleet with the CV, CA, DD and 2 planes

    if it does then it falls.

    Germany can save the Italian fleet with either buy ( DD and 3 AP or CV and 2 AP)



  • That makes sense.

    I’d lean towards a carrier and keep on building the trannies and tanks and men for 1) England; 2) Novogorod; or 3) Archangel. All three are possibilities and are major startegic objectives. Subs in 112 can hit anything that goes to gibralter.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yea i am  working on how to best use this build for Germany.

    larry says i have no idea that my build is wasted due to the nature of the upcoming attack against Russia.

    I want to shuck 6-8 infantry to Finland and also build a major factory in Romania to build more.

    Germany can get to 50 IPC without too much trouble ( with NO’s)

    18 Infantry is 36 IPC potentially. The Soviets cant stop that alone. They must forfeit the NO for “no allied troops in Russia”



  • IL likes to get excited and forgets basic parts of the game…  😉  Just Playin’ IL!



  • Isn’t there a scramble rule - putting some ftrs in West-Ger can save the fleet in SZ 112. The fighters can still attack UK because they are in an airbase. The West-German airbase rules!

    Ow, and putting a dd in SZ 119 with UK does block acces to SZ 109 via SZ 119 right?



  • Building a destroyer and 3 transports in z112 is the most suicidal move i have heard yet. It may well save the italian navy, but thats only by giving the UK a much better target.



  • @Imperious:

    It has come to my attention that Germany might get away with a 1 DD and 3 AP build and bring everything to SZ 112. Then on G1 ( regardless of what UK does) it can swing FROM THE OTHER SIDE and invade UK from her west coast ( SZ 109) using her port movement bonus. Germany needs to do two things to make this possible:

    Bring 4 tanks and 4 infantry from east front to west Germany, also UK needs to lose in a battle of 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD against 3 fighters. This is quite even. If it wins the German player loses her planes, but if they fail, UK will fall no matter what as Germany has now 4 tanks and 4 infantry landing ( before it was 6 units). Note that UK will lose planes in this fight too.

    IN a battle of 1 BB CA DD  ( 4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3) Germany should have the edge if the BB is undamaged.

    The UK cant prevent sealion with a naval block at all in SZ 110.

    They must instead abandon the attack against Italy and Bring the third plane ( tactical bomber) to UK giving them just 3 more.

    Good thinking Cal!

    Im thinking of a new plan now. With 30 IPC Germany might go with 3 transport build and a DD, forcing UK to attack 1 BB, 1 CA, and 1 DD with 3 fighters.

    4/3/2 vs. 3/3/3 and the BB gets two hits…

    But if the UK fails Germany now has 1 more tank and 1 infantry as soakers and UK lost a fighter or two.

    But think about it. It Gets worse!!!

    even if the German fleet is sunk, the transports can still land unopposed, because UK didn’t block! Of course they lost the BB and CA SB, but gained another 3 and 1 for soakers every round.

    The new line up is: 1 bomber, 4 fighters, 3 tactical, 4 tanks, 4 infantry= 16 units, vs. 12 UK infantry and perhaps 1 fighter for 13 units.

    Germany will take UK this way even better. Calvin good job.

    I now know for certain that Italy needs to be neutral till her own turn, or UK falls.

    How do you hit the RN? I assume you kill everything around England. In these attacks you are likely to loose two planes. That means that you dont have 8 planes for the invation, 6 is more likely. Do you also kill the fleet outside Canada? This is reay streaching the Luftwaffe and Krigsmarine but if you dont you will have a extra tank and inf in england by G2. Then the lineup is 12 inf, 3 fig, 1 tank and 1 aa against 4 inf, 4 tanks, 3 figs and 3 bmbs. Even with shorebombard this is not a good fight.

    Unless you are lucky with your dice this move does not force the UK to skip the raid on the Italian fleet.



  • I am confused. I thought IL was basing his strategy while missing the fact that the Gibraltar CV and CL can attack sz112.

    And Holkann: fighters can only scramble from airbases on island (territory with one seazone all around it).



  • @Tavenier:

    And Holkann: fighters can only scramble from airbases on island (territory with one seazone all around it).

    tnx  🙂



  • IL, in your battle simulator, you forgot to put in the tank from Canada and the 3rd ftr.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    All that was invalidated. I found the solution and posted it in “Italy is broken” thread.

    I made a coin flip that UK will lose those 2 ships and blocked the UK fleet attack against SZ 112



  • why is everyone so obsessed with saving the Italian boats.  Oh noes, Italy looses a BB, Cru, and Transport (39 IPCs worth of stuff) at the cost of UK loosing a loaded carrier (36 ish IPCs worth of stuff).  I’m just not getting it.

    Adding to that, it means the UK cannot get another boat safely into the med again until turn 3, more likely turn 4, or any navy near Europe for that matter.

    The italian player can always buy a DD turn 1 (8) take south france + greece and purchase a carrier turn 2.



  • Why doesn’t the UK just send its CV from 91 to SZ 119 to block the eastward invasion route, and send its DD from 91 to help in the 3 fig attack against the DD/BB/CA in SZ 112?



  • K, how about this?  Let’s call it the Double Block plus Italy Save Manuever.  I would only recommend this if you’re feeling lucky.

    Germany builds 1 DD and 3 TRNS.  The German fleet is kept in SZ 113 during G1 combat, which just uses subs and planes to kill everything reachable with more air casaulties acceptable.

    NCM:  1 CA moves to SZ 104 to block the DD and CV.  The BB stays in SZ 113 along with the TRN (trn moves 2 inf to Norway.)  The DD is placed in SZ 112, and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.  Land Material is moved to W. Germany to prep for a 4 TRN G2 Sealion.

    Britain can attack the SZ 104 CA with one DD and one tac, attack the SZ 112 DD with one fighter, and HAS to attack SZ 113 with two fighters.  They HAVE to make this specific attack in order to hit the transports in SZ 113 for the CV to be in range for the fighters to land.  Actually, the SZ 112 DD place is more about preventing a UK naval block with its CV in SZ 112 than for the 2 fighters to land.

    If the SZ 113 battle goes right (2 FIG vs. 1 BB, 52% chance of the UK winning using TripleA calc, with a 17% chance of a draw and the transports surviving), the 4 transports should be able to still land on the UK IF SZ 112 is clear.  The chances of the UK winning the SZ 104 battle is 86%, with a 7% chance for a draw, and the chance of the UK winning the SZ 112 battle is 50%, with a 25% chance for a draw.  That’s two 50% chances there, plus you have a good chance of shooting down quite a bit of the UK’s airforce.

    Even if the SZ 104 attack kills your CA, and the SZ 112 attack kills your DD, so the UK moves its CV into SZ 112, even if it only has one plane on it you may still have a chance.  Both Italian fighters can reach SZ 112 on I1 and you can have a last ditch attack to try to clear the way for a Sealion G2 (another 50% chance of winning there with one plane).

    Pretty risky, but it does leave the german airforce mostly intact for Sealion G2 and doesn’t require a G1 UK air raid.



  • @oztea:

    Are we so sure?
    Isnt the UK battle 3 Fighers and a Tactical Bomber? Agaisnt the German BB, CA, DD?

    IL wait, think about what you are saying……

    In SZ 112 UK can also throw a DD and its AC at your transport fleet to soak hits

    Sealion can not be done without a German Carrier…it just cant

    The battle UK 1 in SZ 112 is enourmously in UKs favor. AC(2 hits)/DD/3 FGT/1 TAC vs BB/CA/DD/4 TRN

    Good luck bro…

    Even two DD -assuming the one off the British West-Coast at set-up didn’t get destroyed (which usually isn’t attacked in our games, because it would be spreading the German forces too thin; on second thoughts you could use two subs for it instead of sending those to the Canadian seaboard to attack the DD and TRA there. The benefit of the latter is that you would cause 3 IPCs of convoy hunting damage there).- which would make the odds even better!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.

    UK’s fighters can kill that. UK has an AB



  • @Imperious:

    and the 3 other TRNS go into SZ 113.

    UK’s fighters can kill that. UK has an AB

    The UK isn’t an island (funnily enough), so fighter units can’t scramble (I think you’re referring to that??)



  • @HolKann:

    Isn’t there a scramble rule - putting some ftrs in West-Ger can save the fleet in SZ 112. The fighters can still attack UK because they are in an airbase. The West-German airbase rules!

    Ow, and putting a dd in SZ 119 with UK does block acces to SZ 109 via SZ 119 right?

    Aircraft (not bombers) can only scramble from ISLANDS with an airbase. West-Germany may have an airbase, but it’s NOT an ISLAND (Niether is the UK, by the letter of the rules, for that matter!)


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