Should U.S. troops remain in Germany??


  • Ozone27 In the Civil War the North had the support of the people of the North!! In a guerilla war between the government and the people, the Federal government would be hard press if their civilian support droped!
    The North won the war between the states because the average person in the North supported the war. Although in New york that was a differnet story. They had some large riots from what I hear.

    I think you are missing the point Ozone27 I’m not calling for people to be running around loaded up like Rambo. All I ask is that people think about their gun rights more. And what do you do If the government arrests the strike leaders?? Then what?? Strike about that?? Fine then the government arrests those people as well?? See how it goes around and round. So what do you think about Franklin’s quote I had??


  • F_alk racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble. No war I believe but sooner or later the nation, empire or what ever will collapse in on itself. Ever hear of the term A house devided can’t stand I forget the rest but you get the point. If most new births come from 3rd world what wil happen to 1st world countries?? Let them immagrate, then what if they don’t to become part of the culture there?? I’ll say it again: Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    I’m sorry about jumping down your throat like I did with the gun thing, its just that I have read quite a bit of what has happened to certain people who gave up theres.

    Your point about striking I don’t think would work in a police state. Please elborate on that point.

    I thought your point F_alk about U.S. being right wing all the way has being real funny. Ever hear of the Green Party or the Democrat Party??

    And about that us being cutthroat and backstabbing What can I say we play rough here in the states and thats the way we like it 😄


  • Well said, war__ & O__7!

    I support the right to keep and arm bears. Grr! 😉


  • @waraxis:

    F_alk racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble.

    Are you so sure about that they don’t wanto to become part of the society? Or is society the thing that hinders them in becoming a part? (That is more usual over here. In germany, the fourth generation turks don’t “want” to become part, because we didn’t accept the first, second and third generation turks as equals).
    And have a look at the “way back” immigrants: most of you still can trace where they came from, and if someone is “pure blooded” then i suppose there is a lot of pride still in those, becasue of that ancestry, keeping traditions of that ancestry alive…. is that something that you won’t allow the newcomers? How long took it for the “way back” immigrants to become “real” americans? Are the newcomers allowed the same time?

    Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    So, you would say that all the Irish celebrations should be forbidden, all the Italian celebrations as well etc.?
    They are multi-cultural!

    Your point about striking I don’t think would work in a police state. Please elborate on that point.

    That is beside the point: you said something like:
    No guns will lead to a police state, as the citizens can’t stand up against the gov’t.
    That is not true, and there is historical evidence against that.
    The GDR was a police state, and fell without violence.
    But iwas more aiming on people can prevent a state to become a police state without having weapons: If the state wants to set up a new law towards creating a police state, you can go on strike. The Kapp coup d’etat has failed because of that. etc.

    I thought your point F_alk about U.S. being right wing all the way has being real funny. Ever hear of the Green Party or the Democrat Party??

    Well, i know of the Greens, but i would not call the Democrats “left” (just as i wouldn’t call the german Social Democrat Party “left”). The Greens are by the way the party i was refering to, which is in the gov’t over here and i bet they are in some more in Europe.

    And about that us being cutthroat and backstabbing What can I say we play rough here in the states and thats the way we like it 😄

    Then, if you like it, does that mean i have to like it? It sounded like that in your previous post. It sounded like you knew what was good and right, and we didn’t.
    That is something about multi-culture that is important, not only in a single country, but more important when dealing with different countries: you have to know and accept their culture, or you will appear as an arrogant bastard to them.


  • The point of a general strike is that it is GENERAL. The whole population (or a signifigant portion of it) takes to the streets & refuses to work. Not talking about the Teamsters here, I’m talking about EVERYONE. The strike “leaders” can’t be arrested because how is the government going to identify & get near them when the streets are filled with angry uncooperative people, taking control of police stations & public broadcast systems (TV, radio stations etc.)

    F_alk is right on about the example of the GDR, and I already mentioned Yugoslavia. No doubt a few people were hurt, but that was nothing compared to the wholesale violence & destruction a civil war would have caused.

    F_alk, that is a great point about the Turks in Germany. It’s good to read from a German who obviously tries to understand Turks on their own terms from their own perspective. All too many Germans just want the Turks to leave (a lot from areas where there are few-to-no Turks!)…

    Re: gun control, as I stated before, I do think Americans have a right to keep & own firearms–but only to the point where they are actually endangering other people. You can’t hurt someone w/ mere words (not physically anyway), so freedom of speech is different. It’s not infringing on gun rights to say you should be responsible w/ it. What is so awful about limiting gun use to responsible people who are going to be safe with them? That’s most people I think–just not a few nutjobs. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think the F. Fathers meant (in spirit, if not by the letter of the poorly written Amendment) for people to be able to run around with completely unfettered use of weapons–I think they envisioned a bit more responsibility & respect for your fellow Americans.

    Ozone27


  • I was in West Germany at the time when the GDR (East Germany) fell apart. That had nothing to do with a strike. It was on its last legs anyway!!! At that time most of the German communists in the GDR were more loyal to their fellow Germans than to Marxist dogma!! Before any such strike took place, people were already leaving East Germany through Czechslovakia and I think through Hungary as well. Do you think that would of happened if somebody like Stalin was in power?? Do you understand the real meaning of a police state or a Nation that is in trouble of becomming one??

    And no F_alk I have no trouble with people celebrating their race or heratiage!! Or even speaking their former language and not speaking English,but when the time comes they need to show loyalty to their current nation.

    True that entire Democrat party isn’t Left but at the same time you can’t say their leadership is left leaning!! About this Social Democrat Party would you please tell me some of their political ideas. I would like to know about them.

    I hope you don’t think I hate leftistism, there is merit to some of their ideas, it’s just that come vote time i like more choices than just : Kinda left party, the left party or the WAY to the left party. And before you bring up mine you are right mine is screwed up as well!!!

    Ozone27 the founding members of this country got it right the first time, and besides Ozone27,me and F_alk were debating the whole idea of gun rights I have no problem people taking a PYSCHE test before they own one. All I ask guys is for checks and balances. Thats all!!


  • Oh, there was a DEBATE going on? I’m sorry to have interrupted… 😉

    How is the fact that the people of the GDR refused to work, refused to listen to the government, and in large part decided to leave the country different from a general strike? ANY government that is in direct opposition to the will of its people is “on its last legs”. What are you talking about–that fascist countries are the only type of “police states”? Are you saying the GDR was NOT a police state? I don’t understand what you are saying here at all…

    The fact that you don’t even know who the SPD are casts doubt–in MY mind at least–that you know the least bit about European politics, or really anything you have been talking about at all. Just my opinion as of right now… 😉

    Ozone27


  • @Ozone27:

    F_alk, that is a great point about the Turks in Germany. It’s good to read from a German who obviously tries to understand Turks on their own terms from their own perspective. All too many Germans just want the Turks to leave (a lot from areas where there are few-to-no Turks!)…

    Too true. It seems like those Germans who don’t know any foreigners are the loudest ones when it comes to “Germany to the Germans” and “All foreigners are just here to benefit from our social system”. Often enough, those loud shouters are pretty uneducated as well (the educated “racists” have more subtle means, of course).
    Germany had a long debate wether we should accept and declare that we are an immigration country. The compromise reached was kind of a silent acceptance of this fact, but not saying it loudly, because you could lose the votes of those who don’t want anything but “tall, blond, blue-eyed” in their neighborhood.
    The mass of the people too often behaves like a herd of cattle, with about that much will and about that thinking on things and “facts” that they are fed with.


  • @waraxis:

    I was in West Germany at the time when the GDR (East Germany) fell apart. That had nothing to do with a strike.

    True, there were no strikes. Only peaceful, unarmed mass demonstrations that more or less promised civilian disobedience.

    Do you understand the real meaning of a police state or a Nation that is in trouble of becomming one??

    So, Ozone mentioned it already…. the GDR was a police state. If it wasn’t, then there were very very few ones in the history of mankind.

    but when the time comes they need to show loyalty to their current nation.

    So you surely would not support the leader of the German opposition party in the German parliament. She came over to the US, met with some senators, AFAIR C. Rice, D. Cheney and others. Honours that no other leader of the opposition from Germany has ever received. Now, the only point why she got that was that she was unloyal to her nation and gov’t. She clearly said that there were people not standing on Chancellor Schröders side…
    she is german, and illoyal… and not even a socialist or social democrat (the ones who in the history of Germany were frequently accused of being unpatriotic.)
    What to do with those? Why does your gov’t support people from freindly countries that would be spit on if they came from their own, because of not supporting the gov’t?

    About this Social Democrat Party would you please tell me some of their political ideas. I would like to know about them.

    It seems like their webpage is german only (http://www.spd.de), but they are active in the PES as well (http://www.pes.org/), so you might want to look there.

    me and F_alk were debating the whole idea of gun rights I have no problem people taking a PYSCHE test before they own one.

    That would be fine for me too. The point is that in the US everyone is free to own more or less very weapon available.

    @Ozone27:

    How is the fact that the people of the GDR refused to work, refused to listen to the government, and in large part decided to leave the country different from a general strike?

    Maybe i should have used civil disobedience instead of strike in the first place.


  • @war_:

    …racial diversity is fine, but multi-culture diversity is not!! Immigrants who came to America way back in the day came to become Americans now a days it depends on the person. When you have mass immagration of people who don’t want to become part of soceity you are asking for trouble.

    @F_k:

    Are you so sure about that they don’t want to become part of the society? Or is society the thing that hinders them in becoming a part? (That is more usual over here. In germany, the fourth generation turks don’t “want” to become part, because we didn’t accept the first, second and third generation turks as equals).
    …look at the “way back” immigrants: most of you still can trace where they came from, and if someone is “pure blooded” then i suppose there is a lot of pride still in those, becasue of that ancestry, keeping traditions of that ancestry alive… is that something that you won’t allow the newcomers? How long took it for the “way back” immigrants to become “real” americans?.. newcomers allowed the same time?

    @war_:

    Racial diversity Yes Multi-culture No

    @F_k:

    So, you would forbid Irish celebrations, all the Italian celebrations as well etc.? They are multi-cultural!

    Wanted to keep all the above arguments together.
    F_alk, I think you are putting words in war_'s mouth. Why don’t you define your definitions of ‘multicultural?’ I do not like the ‘M’ word!
    These festivals are not multicultural. they introduce one culture to another. In my hometown we have a Greek festival(Panegyri), a German festival(Oktoberfest, the largest one outside of Germany), and a St Patrick’s Day parade(I’ve been told it’s large for the size of our city.) No other big ones. These are all conducted mainly in English for communication and economic reasons(more people=more $.) These festivals use a few words/foods/activities of another culture to bring people together for fun.
    I believe war_ wants these folks to bring their differences. However, he wishes for them to learn our ways (to improve their situation[why they came])and teach us their ways so that we may learn, too. If they blend, rather than trying to create Little Uganda(make believe) or Little Havana(a real example), we as a nation become stronger.

    Or maybe he didn’t mean that.


  • @waraxis:

    As for the British Yanny Its not just their parties you have to admire but the people! Every British person I have met is very smart and well spoken even If I don’t always agree with them. Not only that most of the of the old british empire is like that: Canada, India, Australia, Hong Kong, and others. Everybody I have meet in person from these countries is very well educated. Even if they havn’t gone to a major college.

    ahhhh . . . have you been to these places? I fear that you have only met those with the means to visit, which is determined by higher income (and improved education).
    And thank you.


  • @BigBlocky:

    Waraxis…. Until recently Canada had just 3 major federal parties. Progresive Conservative (Republican), Liberal (Democrat) and the New Democratic Party (ummmmm, a cross between communists and environmentalist and wishful thinkers…). For the most part each of the 10 provinces has the same 3 parties. Recently however we have the Bloc Quebecouis, who in the US would be taken out and shot as traitors and perhaps given a trial afterwards. However the federal governnment supports them in their right to try and take Quebec out of Canada. Luckily, most of those who want to seperate are old blood French who don’t make alot of babies. The immigrants seem to think staying in Canada is better for them then letting some kinda scary seperatists run their affairs. Then there is the western based Reform party that just changed it’s name to the Canadian Alliance. They are a bit more right then the Conservative party, kinda like super republicans. But having 2 parties on the right means the vote gets split and the left vote goes to the liberals. We are doomed to be ruled by this party until the 2 parties on the right unite.

    BB

    well said.
    love the NDP line . . . tooo true.


  • @Xi:

    Well said, war__ & O__7!

    I support the right to keep and arm bears. Grr! 😉

    ahhh yes
    bibles and arms.


  • Sorry about that Ozone27 I wasn’t saying that you stay out of it or your opinon wouldn’t be respected I was just stating the nature of the debate. Anybody is welcomed to get in. I’m sorry for saying it like that.

    Ozone27 GDR was a police state in the ealier part of their short life, but at the end when people were leaving and going on telivision and talking bad about the government, and the GDR not doing a thing about it, that is a poor version of a police state. That was a clear sign that the GDR police state was going to collapse in on itself which it did. I saw all of this while living in West Germany. I was not saying it wasn’t a police state at the start but over the years starting in the ealry 80s GDR was slowly losing its status as a police state. When they stop trying to stop people from leaving and letting people speak out in the GDR you know the police state is in trouble. I’ll never forget my history teacher Donavyn (sorry I know I missed spelled it for sure) when we were watching a tv and a East German was being critical of their government, he looked at the class and said thats the end of East Germany.

    For immigrants I have no problem of them bring their culture to my nation and allow the 2 to become one, America is made up of many cultures my only problem is they comming here and wanting to stay to themselves. Americans need to become one no matter where they are from. American culture has plenty of room for other cultures to be absored into it.

    Ever hear of the phrase: United We Stand, Divided We Fall!!!

    Xi you right on the money there. All I ask is for immiagrants to blend in.
    As best they can.

    F_alk I’ll try that other website as my German is almost gone.


  • @cystic:

    bibles and arms.

    Bibles! We don’t need no stinking Bibles!

    Scuse me! I gotta say my prayers
    before I’m struck dead. 😮


  • @Xi:

    F_alk, I think you are putting words in war_'s mouth. Why don’t you define your definitions of ‘multicultural?’ I do not like the ‘M’ word!

    Sure, my definition of multicultural is about the following:

    I believe war_ wants these folks to bring their differences. However, he wishes for them to learn our ways (to improve their situation[why they came])and teach us their ways so that we may learn, too. If they blend, rather than trying to create Little Uganda(make believe) or Little Havana(a real example), we as a nation become stronger.

    That’s what i understand of it. Festivals of other cultures can (but need not) be a part of “their ways”. Of course, if you immigrate somewhere, and you want to become a citizen there, you have to accept the predominant culture, and “learn” it/ integrate yourself. The problem that often appears is that the hosts don’t want to integrate the newcomers as they think “the boat is already crowded”. Even more often, the host people show very little interest in learning about the newcomers cultures (“they must be inferior, why else would the people come here”).
    Very dangerous thoughts, especially if you are thinking that unconciously!

    a German festival(Oktoberfest, the largest one outside of Germany),

    Tehehehe…. that’s what you hear of more or less every major Oktoberfest (which is Bavarian, not necessarily German 😉 ). I think in Melbourne and Tokyo they claim the same.

    @waraxis:

    Ozone27 GDR was a police state in the ealier part of their short life, but at the end when people were leaving and going on telivision and talking bad about the government, and the GDR not doing a thing about it, that is a poor version of a police state.

    Which TV did tehy use? Western stations or eastern stations? I can’t remember having seen “critical” voices on the east german TV.
    The mass leaving was a phenomenon of only a few months before the breakdown, a year maximum. And the people did have to use other, more liberal eastern block countries to flee, like hungaria, where they stormed the west-german embassy and asked for exile. But, how could you explain that people are not allowed to go into friendly, socialist brother-countries anymore?

    but over the years starting in the ealry 80s GDR was slowly losing its status as a police state. When they stop trying to stop people from leaving and letting people speak out in the GDR you know the police state is in trouble.

    The mass demonstrations where the first sign of “speaking out”, more or less encouraged by M. Gorbachev.
    I think the early 80s is too early for that claim of losing “police state” status. Even the day before the wall came down the central comittee of the SED had plans of how to use the army against its own people. The MfS (“Stasi”) still was in full action until the day of Honecker resigning.
    The whole thing was a very fast development, and IMO the SED leaders underestimated the power of the people (hey, they were unarmed, how could they harm the party in all its power?) and the effect of the exodus on daily life.
    For the TV shows, and east germans speaking up there, i repeat my question: was it broadcasted by a western station or an eastern station?

    From all european eastern block countries, IMO the GDR and Romania kept being police states longer than the others (say Poland, Hungaria, CSSR etc).


  • F_alk I saw the footage on AFN news (Armed Forces News) I think thats it, sorry but I’ts been awhile since I have been to Germany, I lived in that area from 86-91. As a military brat, I’m sure you know what that is.
    Where we lived it was big news about the GDR falling apart any Former East German we found got treated like royalty!! I remeber the cook outs, the parties, and the gatherings. We would listen to everyword they would say. And it was always the same, the last few years of the GDR was way different than the start of it. A couple of them stated that even the police knew they were leaving and asked to come along. The story we got was that the GDR police state was losing its police status!!

    The last few years GDR was falling apart!!

    I Didn’t mean that the ealry 80s everything happened F_alk, what I meant was that the first cracks were showing. You think a police state just falls overnight?? The system was showing its age in the ealry 80s.
    I think the mass exdous started to happen in the late 80s.

    What Gorbachev did was make what was already happening go faster.

    I don’t think there is a disagreement about GDR police status I think our only diference on the subject is it’s last few years.

    By the way I lived in Mannhiem, in the base area there. From 1986-1991.
    My step-dad was a tanker. First he had a M-60A3 then his unit was upgraded to M1s


  • @waraxis:

    F_alk I saw the footage on AFN news (Armed Forces News) …
    Where we lived it was big news about the GDR falling apart any Former East German we found got treated like royalty!!.. A couple of them stated that even the police knew they were leaving and asked to come along. …
    The last few years GDR was falling apart!!

    Ok, the AFN surely can only the give thepicture given by Easter Germans who already fled. For the second: Think about it, why were they treated like royality? … How many have crossed the German-German Border from the east in the time since the wall came up? Not many. Therefore, anyone from the east was a big event, even when their numbers inflated in the last months.
    That is for the last sentence: The last year of it’s existence, the GDR was a democratic state, with it’s first free elections (the wall came down 9th Nov 89, reunification was 3rd Oct 90). The exodus to the west started after the 2nd Mai 89, when hungary started to remove its border constructions.
    On the 31th Aug 89 the Hungarian government stated, that any GDR citizens in Hungary were free to leave to the west. The July of that year is usually taken as the start of the exodus. The Leipzig Monday demonstrations (which started in July/ August) found itself fighting with police and other troops of the regime on 2th Oct 89, with many people arrested and injured, the last fugee shot at the Berlin Wall was in Feb that year, the last dead (crashed with his seflmade hot-air-ballon) was in March.

    The first time the regime offered talks and a dialogue was the 9th Oct 89

    I would not call that “years” of not being a police state.

    I Didn’t mean that the ealry 80s everything happened F_alk, what I meant was that the first cracks were showing. You think a police state just falls overnight?? The system was showing its age in the ealry 80s.
    I think the mass exdous started to happen in the late 80s.

    What Gorbachev did was make what was already happening go faster.

    Without Gorbachev, noone of the satellite states could have found its own way or freedom. The CSSR and Hungary tried and failed utterly before. What do you consider the first cracks btw? People getting shot at the wall? People being forced to spy on their friends and families? Tell me what you mean by first cracks, i don’t think that they are “cracks” to a police state. Something like the Tien Anmen massacre in China could have happened anytime during the first “uprisings” before Octobre 89.

    By the way I lived in Mannhiem, in the base area there. From 1986-1991.

    And still you know that the GDR lost its police state character starting in the early 80s, but you don’t know what one of the two largest parties in Germany stands for politically. To be honest, the second reduces the probability of the first dramatically.


  • F_alk I wasn’t saying that GDR in the last few years was a paradise. But you can’t say that the last few years the cracks in the society were starting to show.

    When Gorbachev support all what was happening at this time is was because he knew the writing was on the wall.

    F_alk when Czechslovika and Hungry tried to get away from the U.S.S.R. It was a different time peroid. Back then the Soviet Government had no problem handling those uprisings with force.

    What I mean by cracks is that some former East Germans talked about not showing up for work and not getting in trouble all the time. Some even claimed there were starting to hear more government officials talk bad about U.S.S.R. or GDR in priviate. Also some said that they wouldn’t always get in trouble for speaking out, although they said that it would depend on who was hearing it. All my information is second hand, but I have no reason to believe they were lying.

    One thing is clear to me after hearing all their stories it is certain to me that the GDR of 89 was not the GDR of 69!!


  • @waraxis:

    F_alk I wasn’t saying that GDR in the last few years was a paradise. But you can’t say that the last few years the cracks in the society were starting to show.

    all i oppose is the little word “few” and the plural in “years”.

    When Gorbachev support all what was happening at this time is was because he knew the writing was on the wall.

    F_alk when Czechslovika and Hungry tried to get away from the U.S.S.R. It was a different time peroid. Back then the Soviet Government had no problem handling those uprisings with force.

    Gorbachev was not the one who supported something existing, but he was the start of all of it. He is the main reason for the time period back then being different.

    One thing is clear to me after hearing all their stories it is certain to me that the GDR of 89 was not the GDR of 69!!

    That’s something we agree on.


  • Well then we will have to disagree about the last few years of the GDR.
    Gorbachev had some backing otherwise he would have been afraid to speak out. I don’t know who but I bet even some of the top brass of the Soviet military wanted change. I wish on that part there was more info.


  • I think most of the backing came due to two facts:
    (1) the USSR needed reforms, that was obvious.
    Still, they probably wanted a long term leader that could be influenced => a younger one, after the two short reigns of Andropov and what-was-his-name… Probably, the influentials wanted some change, but surely not that much that it would threaten their power-base, one of the reasons for the coup that failed due to Jelzins help for Gorbachev.
    (2) The general secretary and all the other positions he fills made him the most powerful man in the USSR. Probably, whoever put Gorbachev into place, underestimated him. Pretty much the same underestimation that Hitler faced when he was appointed Chancellor, but luckily Gorbachev used that to reform positively, and i consider the new freedom of information, the right to ask wether the party is right and that the crucial reform.

    So, I don’t think that there was “real” backing, i believe Gorbachev was kind of a compromise candidate, kind of a makeshift. Of course, once he was into power, you ccouldn’t remove instantly, that would have meant that the party made a mistake (which was not “allowed” before Gorbachev). And he was clever enough to stay into power, and use his popularity at the beginning (which soon, after the economy started to collapse openly, was reduced to more or less nothing) to enforece the reforms.

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