Italy a bad design

@calvinhobbesliker:

@cond1024:

Unless I am counting something wrong the axis can win without taking any allied capital.  14 VC win with the following
1. Berlin 2. Rome 3. Paris 4. Warsaw 5. Cairo 6. Leningrad 7. Stalingrad 8. Calcutta 9. Hong Kong 10. Shanghai 11. Tokyo
12. Manila 13. Sydney 14. Honululu

Paris is an allied capital :-D
However, this may be just as hard or harder: Hawaii and Sydney won’t fall easily if US doesn’t ignore Pacific(coughKGF/IJ)

And so is Sydney.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@cond1024:

Unless I am counting something wrong the axis can win without taking any allied capital.  14 VC win with the following
1. Berlin 2. Rome 3. Paris 4. Warsaw 5. Cairo 6. Leningrad 7. Stalingrad 8. Calcutta 9. Hong Kong 10. Shanghai 11. Tokyo
12. Manila 13. Sydney 14. Honululu

Paris is an allied capital :-D
However, this may be just as hard or harder: Hawaii and Sydney won’t fall easily if US doesn’t ignore Pacific(coughKGF/IJ)

And so is Sydney.

Yes you are correct, but I was referring to a major allied capital (Moscow, London, Washington, or SF) and yes I know SF is not a capital in Global.

Thanks for the correction 8-)

I really dont see the problem everyone is complaining about.
If the germans take out the french med fleet on G1, it really shouldnt be a problem to follow up on the next turn and take out the brittish carriergroup.(if it moves in to attack the italians) Yes its going to cost the germans a couple of planes and propably let other parts of the royal navy survive, but on the other hand they get to kill the entire allied med fleet witch is just as good.
This only makes the game fun in my opinion, the germans really have to chose what to kill on G1, since they cannot hit everything.

for me, the game isnt broken anywhere. i dig it.

Not sure Germany should lose so much air taking out a french DD, french CA, UK CV, UK Ftr, UK tac in the med…  probably lose 3-4 german air

The Germans certainly can destroy the french south fleet(edit for clarity, on G1) using their air force thanks to the airbase.  This would make the british Taranto Raid suicidal as the Italians would be able to mop up survivors afterward.  Assuming average dice rolls the british will lose their destroyer+cruiser, and the Italians would be able to counter attack the carrier and 2 planes with their 2 fighters +destroyer+cruiser, then have a clear Mediterranean afterward.  Depending what Germany does, it may be more worth it for the UK to combine their southern fleet in SZ 92 and force a naval stalemate.  The remaining german air would have a hard time taking on a loaded carrier with 2 escorts(near mutual annihilation likely) and the Italians would not be able to deal with it either immediately, since their fighters wouldn’t have range turn 1. Either way the fleet either takes much of the German airforce out with it or becomes a pain that hampers Italy’s invasion of Africa.

The carrier and 2 planes will be combined with the French DD and CC

I was talking about a G1 attack on the south france fleet.  They wouldn’t be combined yet.

@Striker:

I was talking about a G1 attack on the south france fleet.  They wouldn’t be combined yet.

How many planes do you use to do this? If you take out that fleet, some of the British navy in the North Sea will survive.

As the Germans I would prefer to take care of the UK fleet in the north on G1…rebase all possible air to W. Germany.

I think if Germany ignores Normandy the first turn, they can take Paris comfortably if they use ALL available ground forces on it.  This frees up the airforce to dedicate itself to fleet killing.  4 fighters, 3 tacticals and a bomber can take care of the southern french fleet and the battleship fleets with the help of the subs. It’s how I’ll try things when i get a chance to play Germany at least.

I think if Germany ignores Normandy the first turn, they can take Paris comfortably if they use ALL available ground forces on it.  This frees up the airforce to dedicate itself to fleet killing.  4 fighters, 3 tacticals and a bomber can take care of the southern french fleet and the battleship fleets with the help of the subs. It’s how I’ll try things when i get a chance to play Germany at least.

Agreed. This is how we did it too. Normandy is no threat, so there is no need to take it on G1 IMO. Better to use the German air to kill the scattered Brit fleet than send them in for overkill in Paris. You’ll never get a better chance to kill those ships otherwise.

Doing this really makes the Brits think twice about sending the last little bit of their navy into the Med to harass the Italians. Sure, you can kill their whole fleet, but the price you pay is that Germany has NOTHING to worry about for the first few turns. And if you lose the CV to a counter-attack, you’re pretty screwed in terms of building back up.

I dont see the UK attack on the IT navy as being a no-brainer or ‘broken’ at all. It represents a commitment to the Med that will cost the Brits in the Atlantic. It might be worth it, it might not be worth it. But it is certainly not some every game decision yet IMO.

Played Italy yesterday: UK went for Germany instead, leaving Regio Marina intact. Like a chump, I split my fleet to kill the UK and French fleets on I1… but the French had very good luck and sank my cruisers, with one of their own still floating. Nevertheless, I bounced back from that and ruled the Med… until US 5. :wink:

It’s a very fun power to play. At the end of I4, Italy held the Ukraine, a UK-built factory in Cairo, Iraq–and all the free infantry that brings–control of the straits of Gilbraltar, and the Suez, a good deal of French turf and all the UK territories north of South Africa–their tanks threating the minor IC there–and pulling down 40 IPCs!

And all of this was accomplished with comedy-bad rolling, e.g. one French inf on Syria mowing down two invading Italian inf with Battleship support and surviving to tell the tale!! Same inf took out another infantry on another amphibious assault on the same territory on the following turn. So it cost 9 IPCs of units, and more than that in opportunity costs, just to take out a crappy 1 IPC territory owned by a defunct power. This isn’t even mentioning the massacre of 5 Italian units for 1 UK casualty in Egypt, the first time I tried to take the place… And I still loved playing it!

Rejoice, would-be Italy players, rejoice. Even though you represent the only ‘reactive’ Axis power, there is still a great game here for you. Tons of choices, none of them easy, and limited resources with which to achieve your objectives… but incredibly fun!

Good to hear. :) I too played Italy in our Global game and I had fun with them. The Brits did not kill my fleet due to the Germans breathing down their neck in the Atlantic and I quickly dominated Africa, the Mid-East and was pressing into Russia just a bit when the Allies surrendered.

I enjoyed playing Italy in AA50 and I think they are considerably more interesting now. :)

@Uncle_Joe:

Good to hear. :) I too played Italy in our Global game and I had fun with them. The Brits did not kill my fleet due to the Germans breathing down their neck in the Atlantic and I quickly dominated Africa, the Mid-East and was pressing into Russia just a bit when the Allies surrendered.

I enjoyed playing Italy in AA50 and I think they are considerably more interesting now. :)

Considerably.  I really enjoyed my I1 last night.
Oh, and by the way?

I was on the other end of calvinhobbes attack.  He attacked with DD, CA, FTR, Tac and lost all but the fighter, only dinging my battleship.  I counterattacked with everything, sinking his French DD and CA, UK CV and FTR, losing a DD and FTR (he hit 3 out of 4).

So it doesn’t always even work to attack the Italians pre-emptively.  The beatdown Germany puts on the UK on G1 is more significant than any of this Med nonsense.  I guess people just aren’t used to the Axis being subject to a big fleet pre-emptive strike on the first turn that they stand to lose.

Get over it.  It’s an awesome game, and it will take many plays before anyone can really say anything’s broken.  So stop trying to sound so smart by announcing the game is messed up in the first week that it’s out - it’s annoying.  :-)

At 16 pages in a couple of days can anymore be said on this? Another guy posted a fix that just makes it so Italy has to declare war on I1 thus UK doesnt attack them. So if you think currntly it is broken play it that way.

Another guy posted a fix that just makes it so Italy has to declare war on I1 thus UK doesnt attack them.

Thats me and yes thats what the game should have.

This means that Germany does not have to do a “fake sea lion” just to get the British to back off and block in SZ 110. When the game forces one player to buy something in order for another player to stop doing a certain play that wipes out a third player, the games design is faulty. Italy cannot last with most of its fleet sunk before it can even play the game.

I dont see the UK attack on the IT navy as being a no-brainer or ‘broken’ at all. It represents a commitment to the Med that will cost the Brits in the Atlantic.

Then play a scenario of a CV and 2 AP build for Germany and UK just buys infantry and DOES NOT BLOCK. Germany invades without opposition and takes UK. If you feel thats a fair trade of some Italian ships for England, then play that.

UK can still commit to the Mediterranean and trade off London. Go look at the odds of an unopposed invasion.

It is a forces move if Germany makes that build. Its the only thing that saves UK

Well I still feel that you have to play out an entire game to see whether or not that breaks the gameplay, if it does not then why worry about it?

You don’t need to do that. G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces. If UK wants to trade some Italian ships for losing London, then thats fine.

Of course Germany will lose some planes, but UK wont get back UK either, Italy can land a fighter in London from North Italy.

G1 just build cv and 2 AP, and UK wastes the Italian fleet, then Germany wastes UK. Game over.

Should be like 10 minutes. Don’t even set up the other pieces

this isnt true. sea lion wont work. its a flawed plan that should never even be used