Japan-Soviet Non-Aggression-Pact



  • either a special -NO

    or the much simpler rule that all NO income is halfed (or maybe even 100% forefit) while you are breaking the pact.

    So to monetarily sanction breaking the pact we have 3 options here:
    1. A special -5/10 NO for each power if they attack the other unprovoked (I prefer 5 over 10)
    2. If you attack the other power unprovoked, all other NOs you have generate only half (rounded down)
    3. If you attack the other power unprovoked, all other NOs you have are forefit to the bank.

    In all of these cases, your economic situation returns to normal once you are no longer violating the pact.


  • 2019 2018

    @Imperious:

    USSR may not initiate a war with Japan if it is already at war with Germany or Italy

    USSR may not initiate a war with Germany or Italy if it is already at war with Japan

    Japan may not initiate a war with USSR if it is already at war with UK/FRANCE/USA

    Japan may not initiate a war with UK/FRANCE/USA if it is already at war with USSR

    This could work.

    I think it needs to be rephrased:

    USSR can’t attack Japan until Germany is defeated
    Japan can’t attack USSR unless one major power ( not ANZAC or China) Have their capital occupied by Germany or Italy.

    If you put all these restrictions on USSR and Japan, then you have Pac 40 all over again, where Japan doesn’t have to protect it’s northern boarder and is free send all troops for the J3 India crush.



  • @Flashman:

    Just to clarify my suggestion:

    USSR may not initiate a war with Japan if it is already at war with Germany or Italy

    USSR may not initiate a war with Germany or Italy if it is already at war with Japan

    Japan may not initiate a war with USSR if it is already at war with UK/FRANCE/USA

    Japan may not initiate a war with UK/FRANCE/USA if it is already at war with USSR

    The Japan/China situation does not effect these.

    In all cases the bind ends when a capital (or both capitals) of the enemy you are already at war with fall(s).

    It will be seen from this that if the game follows the historical pattern, then USSR & Japan will be trapped in a double-bind preventing them from becoming at war with each other until either the Euro Axis or the Western Allies are defeated.

    I’m thinking about similar restrictions on other powers, for example should UK or France be allowed to declare war on Japan while any of London/Paris/Rome/Berlin is Axis controlled?

    Should Germany and Italy be automatically drawn into war with the USA if Japan attacks it?

    Would Italy declare war on ANY other power unless Germany had already done so?

    I like these!



  • @cond1024:

    @Imperious:

    USSR may not initiate a war with Japan if it is already at war with Germany or Italy

    USSR may not initiate a war with Germany or Italy if it is already at war with Japan

    Japan may not initiate a war with USSR if it is already at war with UK/FRANCE/USA

    Japan may not initiate a war with UK/FRANCE/USA if it is already at war with USSR

    This could work.

    I think it needs to be rephrased:

    USSR can’t attack Japan until Germany is defeated
    Japan can’t attack USSR unless one major power ( not ANZAC or China) Have their capital occupied by Germany or Italy.

    If you put all these restrictions on USSR and Japan, then you have Pac 40 all over again, where Japan doesn’t have to protect it’s northern boarder and is free send all troops for the J3 India crush.

    That’s indeed the other side of the coin…


  • Customizer

    @cond1024:

    @Imperious:

    USSR may not initiate a war with Japan if it is already at war with Germany or Italy

    USSR may not initiate a war with Germany or Italy if it is already at war with Japan

    Japan may not initiate a war with USSR if it is already at war with UK/FRANCE/USA

    Japan may not initiate a war with UK/FRANCE/USA if it is already at war with USSR

    This could work.

    I think it needs to be rephrased:

    USSR can’t attack Japan until Germany is defeated
    Japan can’t attack USSR unless one major power ( not ANZAC or China) Have their capital occupied by Germany or Italy.

    If you put all these restrictions on USSR and Japan, then you have Pac 40 all over again, where Japan doesn’t have to protect it’s northern boarder and is free send all troops for the J3 India crush.

    Only if there is an exact historical play-out, with Germany invading Russia and Japan attacking the Western Allies before  R & J get to grips.
    And of course if the double-bind occurs then USSR is free to send all Siberian units to the European front, so the pact should always balance out.

    If Japan decided to join in an invasion of Russia before starting a Pacific war then the western Allies  would be free to send all units to the European front AND pick their moment to kick-off versus Japan.

    The thought is that both these powers were acting essentially alone, were somewhat paranoid, did not trust their allies, and would never have embarked on a war with both main opponents at the same time.

    Hitler of course had no such qualms having massively under estimated his enemies, and quite happily attacked whenever he saw a chance.



  • but doesnt this whole scenerio build……acme walls?

    and would it not be simpler and more realistic to just impose monitary penalties?
    not only because these actions went against BOTH powers real life_national objectives_, but both actions were deemed cost ineffective by both powers. Either by the Soviets having to fuel such a far away war, or the Japansese having to commit to a war in such hostile (especialy to them) terrain.



  • but in the actual rules they can fight, correct? or are there rules against this.



  • in the standard game there is no restriction on japan fighting the USSR

    in real life there would have been no phisical barrier to it either, breaking a treaty during war time carries no penalty, you arent going to get sanctioned by the UN or anything….because you probably already are.

    in simulations however, account should be taken of the fact that

    1. Neither power wanted to fight eachother becuase they just did in the 1930’s and it was a bloodbath
    2. Conflict in that area is expensive because of distance and climate, and there is little reward in minerals or oil (that is, little that is easy to extract)
    3. And both powers had larger concerns in other areas.

    I am disapointed the game does not have a pact rule, i hope 18 infantry and vast distance can simulate it enough



  • I love how half of the posts here revolve around some “new” house rule.  95% of the people out there don’t even have the game yet, but everyone is already trying to “fix” it……get back to me with all your ideas in say, 10-15 games.

    Staying on topic here…I would stack and stay one back from border…holds some of the Japanese back from China/India and can be used as a bomber base (lots of US planes buzzing around the board in my opinion - fastest way for US to get 82 IPC’s into the fight)



  • @Plasticdeathbydice:

    I love how half of the posts here revolve around some “new” house rule.  95% of the people out there don’t even have the game yet, but everyone is already trying to “fix” it……get back to me with all your ideas in say, 10-15 games.

    Staying on topic here…I would stack and stay one back from border…holds some of the Japanese back from China/India and can be used as a bomber base (lots of US planes buzzing around the board in my opinion - fastest way for US to get 82 IPC’s into the fight)

    The new rules are for PACIFIC40, not Europe…



  • @Koningstiger:

    The new rules are for PACIFIC40, not Europe…

    This is in the Global forum, which is neither Pacific or Europe…


  • Customizer

    I’m surprised nobody spotted the obvious flaw in my suggestion:

    The Allies can block a Japanese attack on the Western Allies by sending a single Soviet infantryman over the Manchurian border to start a war before Germany attacks.

    It needs to be that Russia or Japan cannot initiate wars against both enemies.  But would that work?



  • I’m not sweating it until I get the game in my hands and can see the angles in person. The first game that I play will be straight up and then we can see how well the game was playtested. From sources that were at GenCon they said it was a blast and the game played very well.



  • Flashman, you cant henpen them in to not being allowed to attack unless conditions are met

    Make the action itself undisireable


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Allies can block a Japanese attack on the Western Allies by sending a single Soviet infantryman over the Manchurian border to start a war before Germany attacks.

    And thats why you go with my suggestion and don’t get into this issue.

    USSR can’t attack Japan until Germany is defeated
    Japan can’t attack USSR unless one major power ( not ANZAC or China) Have their capital occupied by Germany or Italy.



  • @Imperious:

    The Allies can block a Japanese attack on the Western Allies by sending a single Soviet infantryman over the Manchurian border to start a war before Germany attacks.

    And thats why you go with my suggestion and don’t get into this issue.

    USSR can’t attack Japan until Germany is defeated
    Japan can’t attack USSR unless one major power ( not ANZAC or China) Have their capital occupied by Germany or Italy.

    Also exclude France.



  • Japan SHOULD be able to go to war against the Soviet Union. That’s the nature of the game. It was also a serious option Japan considered for quite some time. Indeed, in the end they decided to go for the Southern option. It’s difficult to simulate both things in a game of the nature of A&A. One we want mutual attacks to be possible, Two neither of the two countries in question was eager to fight the other while already at war with Germany/Italy or the US/UK/France respectively…

    Perhaps a negative NO would work or an IPC penalty (in the rulebook it’s explained that NOs represent a boost in morale and vigour (I suppose both in the military and as far as civilians/factory workers etc. are concerned). Hearing that your country is being attacked from both sides would probably have the opposite effect of an NO, so a negative one might work: -6 IPC if Japan is at war with the Western Allies and the USSR simultaneously and -6 if the USSR is at war with both Japan and Germany/ Italy. These negative SA’s only apply when you initiated the conflict with the Soviet Union or japan respectively. ( I agree the wording needs to be worked on, but I’m sure you get the idea). I’m certainly not for completely disallowing the possibility!


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