Revised Global 1940: New Setup


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    This thread is the new home for the revised setup study and construction of a historical based setup for Global 1940.

    First job is to determine the proper ratios and force pools for a June 1940 setup.

    Step two is to determine where these units are located in June 1940

    Step Three is to address the qualitative factors that need to compensate the totals. This can be done by a number of ways:

    Examples:

    1. If Japan has too few planes you can address the quality of their better trained pilots, by for example making US fighters attack at 2 for the first 1-3 rounds they are at war. This might represent the skilled pilots. Or conversely i can make tokens for the starting Japanese tactical bombers/fighters and they get some special ability as long as they are not destroyed.

    2. Another example is to give Japan a first turn special attack as in AAP , where allied ships defend at 1 on the first turn they are attacked

    3. Another example is Japanese transports and or naval may get a double movement on the first turn they attack USA, So they can get a jump on all these little islands and model the lightening war of her first 6 months.

    4. Another example is a Russian winter rule, Bringing back oil centers, and other ideas.

    Step Four is to balance the final setup and provide as many different variations as possible so that the setup is not scripted and can have many options for players. Nothing worse than getting a game where you got the drop on that perfect move…. and the game is not replayed because new strategies are not possible.

    Step Five is to rigorously play-test this and provide feedback.

    Step six is to then make a 1941 ( DEC) setup for a shorter game. The research on this is very good for both theaters of war.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    So using your data IL, with a ratio of:

    Fighter: 1:150
    Tac (best I can tell): 1:150
    Bomber: 1:600

    Germany: 7 Fighter, 4 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Japan: 9 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber
    UK: 5 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber
    Italy: 4 Fighter, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber

    Russia/US have huge air forces, hard to tell how many units they should have based on quality/experience, but my guess is:
    US: 8 Fighter, 3 Tac, 2 Bomber
    Russia: 4 Fighter, 2 Tac, 1 Bomber

    OK then here are some figures:

    Quote
    Ship Type  BB  CV  CA  DD  SS  AP  Fighter  T Bomber
    Germany    1      -    1    2    2    1   
    Italy          2      -    2    3    3    1   
    Japan        3      2    3    5    2    4   
    UK            4      2    4    8    2    6   
    USSR        1            1    1    1   
    France      2            2    3    3    1   
    Anzac                            1   
    USA        3      2    3      8    4    6   
    Spain                            1      1   
    Argentina                        1         
    Brazil                              1   
    Turkey                     
    Dutch                            1

    BB  3
    CV  4
    CA 10
    DD 20
    SS  30

    what this chart means is take units by type and divide by 3,4,10,20, or 30



  • sounds interesting but what does AP stand for???


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Transport. “Personnel Troop Transports”

    here are some others:

    AE Ammunition Explosive Ship
    AF Provision Ship
    AH Hospital Ship AK Cargo Ship
    AO Oil Tankers



  • thank you.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    hey il, you have made some mistakes with your historical repersentation of navies. actual fleet strength around May-June 1940 is below

    BB  CV  CA  DD  SS 
    10  8  38  108    68    Japan
    15  7  37  118  112    USA
    16  6  70  214    78    Commonwealth
    8    0  18    70    25    France
    3    0    6    68    218  USSR
    4    0  13    26    240  Germany
    0    0    5    12      0    Netherlands
    6    0  22    59    146  Italy
    1    0    4    13    11    Turkey
    2    0    7      1    14    Spain
    2    0    2      7      0  Brazil
    2    0    4    30      0  Argentina

    now you can do any ratios you like to get to a board game amount. but you have errors in your real life fleets, one example that jumps out at me is your germany having 1 game CV (4 real life CV) when germany never had the single graf zepplin operational.

    i will use a chart that shows ratios of  BB 5/1,    CV 8/3,    CA 19/1,    DD 27/1,  SS 34/1
    these ratios are what larry used to convert japans real 1940 navy to pac40. i then spread it across the other powers.

    BB    CV    CA    DD    SS 
    2.00  3.00  2.00  4.00  2.00  Japan
    3.00  2.63  1.95  4.37  3.29  USA
    3.20  2.25  3.68  7.93  2.29  Commonwealth
    1.60  0.00  0.95  2.59  0.74  France
    0.60  0.00  0.32  2.52  6.41  USSR
    0.80  0.00  0.68  0.96  7.06  Germany
    0.00  0.00  0.26  0.44  0.00  Netherlands
    1.20  0.00  1.16  2.19  4.29  Italy
    0.20  0.00  0.21  0.48  0.32  Turkey
    0.40  0.00  0.37  0.78  0.41  Spain
    0.40  0.00  0.11  0.26  0.00  Brazil
    0.40  0.00  0.21  1.11  0.00  Argentina

    if i was to make a more historical accurate game setup i would round the navies to the following.

    BB  CV  CA  DD  SS 
    2    3    2    4    2  Japan
    3    3    2    4    3  USA
    3    2    4    8    2  Commonwealth
    2    0    1    2    1  France
    1    0    0    3    6  USSR
    1    0    0    1    7  Germany
    0    0    0    1    0  Netherlands
    1    0    1    3    4  Italy
    0    0    1    0    0  Turkey
    0    0    1    1    0  Spain
    0    0    0    1    0  Brazil
    0    0    0    1    0  Argentina


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Ok i revised the totals to reflect a few items. Some of them were rated ( rounded up or down) depending on quality. German pocket BB’s were placed as cruisers, old German WW1 BB’s were discounted.

    Quote
    Ship Type  BB  CV  CA  DD  SS  AP  Fighter  T Bomber
    Germany          1      -    2    2    8    1   
    Italy              2      -    2    3    5    1   
    Japan            3      3    4    5    2    4   
    UK                4      1    4    10    2    6   
    USSR            1      -    1    3    7    1
    France          2      -    2    3    3      1   
    Anzac                            1   
    USA              4      2      4      5    4    6   
    Spain                            1                  1   
    Argentina                              1         
    Brazil                                                1   
    Turkey                     
    Dutch                                        1

    BB  3
    CV  4
    CA 10
    DD 20
    SS  30

    The land rations are going to be this:

    Infantry (divisions divided by 5)
    Artillery ( subjective)
    Tanks ( Divisions divided by 2)
    Mechanized ( Motorized, Grenadiers, Mechanized divisions divided by 3)

    Two Brigades = 1 division and “light divisions” go as 50% rate

    Fortress divisions ( subjective and heavily discounted)

    As it is now France should have a total of 16 Infantry pieces, 6 Mech and 3 Tanks. Note: alot of this will be placed in colonial territories ( figure about 6 INF and 1-2 mech)

    I place 3-4 artillery in french control ( leaning at 3)


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Germany:
    18 Infantry, 5 tanks, 3 mechanized, 3 artillery

    UK:
    6 Infantry, 2 tanks, 3 mechanized, 2 Artillery

    BEF:
    1 Mechanized, 1 Inf, 1 Artillery

    Commonwealth:

    India:
    1 tank
    2 Infantry

    Australia:
    1 tank,1 Infantry

    Canada:
    1 Infantry

    African:
    1 Inf

    South Africa:
    1 Inf

    Italy:
    15 Infantry
    1 Tank
    2 Mechanized
    2 Artillery

    1 Inf in Ethiopia ( colonial)

    Romania:
    4 Infantry, 1 Mechanized, 1 Artillery

    Finland:
    3 Infantry

    USA:
    4 Inf, 1 Tank, 1 Artillery

    USSR:
    25 Infantry, 4 tanks, 4 Mechanized, 5 Artillery

    Japan:
    10 Infantry, 1 Mechanized, 2 Artillery

    ( Infantry placement: 6 in China, 2 In Manchuria, 1 in Japan)

    Bulgaria:
    3 Infantry, 1 Artillery

    Hungary:
    3 Infantry, 1 Artillery

    China:
    11 Infantry, 1 Artillery



  • hey IL
    Since you started this tread and began it taking about planes, i have a complete set of revised rules for aircraft. If you and others are interesred in looking at them let me know if i should post them in this thread or not. i have playtested these new rules and they are good. i think they would work well with the starting setup ratios you are talking about.



  • _Transport. “Personnel Troop Transports”

    here are some others:

    AE Ammunition Explosive Ship
    AF Provision Ship
    AH Hospital Ship AK Cargo Ship
    AO Oil Tankers_

    I like that…
    You can add liner ships.
    What about LCV.
    I’ve already thought to add landing craft in my game but there’s already so part and piece.
    Don’t know if players would agree about a rule which would impose the use of a LCV to land on a territory?



  • landing craft are cool. i have them. table tatics makes them i believe.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Please add any rules you feel are KISS and might look like something you think a good way to model some aspect of the OOB rules in a batter way.

    Don’t post elaborate production cues or long winded ideas about some overkill ‘uber realistic’ way of doing combat.

    All we are really doing is FIX the setup that gave us a japanese ‘death star’ with more fighters and planes than all the world combined and cheesy balancing fixes ( like 18 soviet infantry sitting on the Manchurian border). The armed forces will be represented accurately and reflect their true value in some way.



  • Should i start a new thread for Revised Global 40 aircraft rules? I dont want to take away the focus of what you started here, but you got me going now. whats the right way to do it?


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @Imperious:

    All we are really doing is FIX the setup that gave us a japanese ‘death star’ with more fighters and planes than all the world combined and cheesy balancing fixes ( like 18 soviet infantry sitting on the Manchurian border).

    🙂 Well put.  Maybe all the USA needs to do is send in a lone fighter to destroy the Japs.  Use the Force, Luke.



  • @lnmajor:

    hey IL
    Since you started this tread and began it taking about planes, i have a complete set of revised rules for aircraft. If you and others are interesred in looking at them let me know if i should post them in this thread or not. i have playtested these new rules and they are good. i think they would work well with the starting setup ratios you are talking about.

    yah sure.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Should i start a new thread for Revised Global 40 aircraft rules?

    yes do that.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Extrapolation of Armed forces 6/1/40 was done based on the following ratios:

    Land:
    5 infantry divisions = 1 unit
    2 Armor Divisions = 1 unit
    3 Motorized Divisions/ Mechanized = 1 unit
    Artillery (subjective based on level of artillery in infantry and other factors)

    Sea:
    3 Battleships = 1 unit
    4 Carriers = 1 unit
    10 Cruisers = 1 unit
    20 Destroyers = 1 unit
    30 submarines = 1 unit
    2,000,000 Gross Tons of Merchant Shipping ( rounded up) = 1 Unit

    Air:
    200-250 Front line Fighters = 1 unit
    200-250 Front line Fighter- Bombers= 1 unit
    450-500 Front line Bombers= 1 unit

    Germany:
    26 infantry, 5 tanks, 3 mech, 4 artillery, 5 fighters, 2 bombers, 2 tactical bombers
    1 BB, 2 CA, 2 DD, 8 SS, 2 AP

    Italy:
    15 infantry, 1 tank, 2 mech, 2 artillery, 2 bombers, 2 fighters (1 in Italian East Africa), 1 tactical bomber.
    2 BB, 2 CA, 3 DD, 5 SS, 1 AP

    Japan:
    10 infantry, 1 mech, 2 artillery ( from this in China, 6 inf) also, 2 Manchuria, 1 Japan)
    3 BB,3 CV, 3 CA, 5 DD, 2 SS, 3 AP Land Based air: 2 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, 1 bomber. Sea Based air: 3 fighters, 3 tactical bombers

    Romania:
    5 Infantry, 1 mech, 1 artillery, 1 fighter

    Finland:
    5 infantry, 1 artillery

    Hungary:
    5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tank

    Bulgaria:
    3 infantry, 1 artillery, ( they should have 1 fighter as they had 300 fighters at end of 1940)

    Sweden:
    4 Infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter

    Greece:
    3 Infantry, 1 AP

    Argentina:
    4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 CA

    Brazil:
    4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 AP

    Iraq:
    2 Infantry

    France:
    16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber (air force was not ready and mostly destroyed by June 1940)
    2 BB, 2 CA, 3 DD, 3 SS, 1 AP
    United Kingdom: Global
    6 infantry, 3 mech, 1 tank, 2 artillery, 2 fighters, 2 bombers, 1 tactical bomber
    5 BB, 1 CV, 4 CA, 10 DD, 2 SS, 8 AP

    BEF:
    1 Infantry, 1 mech, 1 artillery

    ANZAC:
    1 infantry, 1 tank, 1 DD, 1 AP ( Australian)

    Canada:
    1 infantry, 1 DD, 1 AP

    India:
    2 infantry, 1 tank

    Africa:
    1 infantry

    South Africa:
    1 Infantry

    Soviet Union:
    25 infantry, 4 tanks, 4 mech, 5 artillery, 3 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, 1 bomber ( rated Soviets lower due to huge issues on quality and doctrine, but on paper they had the largest air force easily)
    1 BB, 3 DD, 7 SS, 2 AP  ( on the Manchurian border:6 Infantry, 2 Mech, 2 artillery 1 tanks, 1 fighter)

    United States:
    4 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery. Sea Based air: 2 fighters 1 tactical bomber Land Based air: 2 bombers, 2 fighters, 1 tactical bomber
    4 BB,2 CV, 4 CA, 5 DD, 4 SS, 4 AP

    China:
    11 infantry, 1 artillery
    **Chile:
    3 Infantry

    Spain:
    6 Infantry, 1 mech, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 DD, 1 AP

    Turkey:
    5 Infantry, 1 armor, 2 artillery, 1 DD

    Dutch:
    1 DD

    Final disposition. Now working on placement.**



  • Very nice work on this IL. Can the ratios on the aircraft be changed to put more planes on the board at start? or will that throw the balance off? Maybe every 100 fighters= 1fighter?
    is there a way to balance fighter ratios based on how many planes or squadrons an carrier can hold? with your ratio 2 planes on a WW2 carrier represent 500 planes, is that correct? and if it is, were carriers at that time able to hold that many fighters?



  • Oh i see, you have 4 carriers= i unit. makes sense. so, 1 carrier is holding 125 planes becouse 2 fighters rep. 500 and 1 carrier rep. 4. is that correct?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Can the ratios on the aircraft be changed to put more planes on the board at start? or will that throw the balance off? Maybe every 100 fighters= 1fighter?
    is there a way to balance fighter ratios based on how many planes or squadrons an carrier can hold? with your ratio 2 planes on a WW2 carrier represent 500 planes, is that correct? and if it is, were carriers at that time able to hold that many fighters?

    These are just numbers based on ratios. It does not indicate the final setup or where it will be.  Also, naval air forces may include planes that are not on carriers, but for the most part the ratios reflect an equal portion of these planes to their carrier inventory. Japan for example has just enough planes for her carriers as thats what they had.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Force pool is now complete. I checked and rechecked.

    Now working on placement for each based on 6/40 date



  • Hi

    If I would like to start the game earlier, and invade Poland. What would be right ratio/forces for Poland?
    4-5 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 1 Fighter?


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    4-5 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 1 Fighter?

    I don’t know, but this is June 1940 and some nations would have differences in the force pool. France for example would have alot more aircraft.



  • If im looking for more engauging naval activity. Can all ship #s be doubled at start of game without throwing off game balance? Would changing Naval ratios upset Land and air ratios? are they connected?



  • Looked at your starting #s again, doubling naval would be way too much. just dont like the idea of same old UK fleet dessimated G1 and the big eventual confrontation of US and Japans fleets after many turns of staring each other down. both sides usally badly mauled.


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