AAE40 G2-3 Sealion Strategy!!!



  • (I started this reply under the Battle of the Atlantic thread but thought it deserved its own…  Tell me what you think.)

    Germany intelligently using its starting Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe at game start plus building a few subs a turn should result in easy dominance of the Atlantic, at least for the first three turns.  When the USA joins the fray, however, its probably going to be a losing proposition with up to 80+ IPCs being dropped on the East coast a turn.  Unless you’re able to maintain a decent sized naval stack, with both German and Italian units joining together somewhere off Gibraltar, the naval situation will probably end up being what happened historically to Germany; relegation to the Baltic and eventual annihilation.  So, if you want to do a navy, you might as well use it where it will do the most good: Operation Sealion.  You will need the collusion of the Japanese player to maintain neutrality through turn 3 to keep the US happy, and Italy will have to pound Britain as hard as it can in Africa early on to deny Britain some NOs and IPCs.

    Looking at the initial setup, it appears that a German Sealion strategy can work, but it won’t be very fun and with a smart British player you will probably just barely be achieving even odds if you want to invade England.  It IS possible though, and since Britain is the only power Germany starts the game at war with, it is your best opportunity to KO a major opponent Round 3.  Here’s the plan:

    G1:  This strategy centers around Germany’s ability to build from Western Germany into SZ 112.  Build an AC and two transports; or if you’re feeling less adventurous, build an AC and a destroyer and sub (or save the 6 IPCs).  Use the bomber, 4 fighters, and 3 tac bombers plus your starting subs in the Atlantic to clear the SZs around Britain.  Both battleships are in range from Western Germany and your own battleship and cruiser can attack the British and French cruisers in SZ 112; with leftover air it should be cake.  Use your 6 starting tanks to pound France along with as much infantry as you can spare for casualties; if you have any tac bombers leftover use them for the 4s with the tanks.  If you feel a little risky, take an inf and art from Holland into Normandy for the IC and NB.  I think you can use an infantry from Norway and Romania to liberate pro-Axis Finland and Bulgaria and get their IPCs, but I’m not entirely sure on that point.

    Hopefully, you won’t lose more than one plane from the carnage, some subs will survive in SZs that will perform convoy raids on the UK, and your main tank stack in France will be intact.  Land your fighters on the carrier to be built in SZ 112, the cruiser, battleship and transport there with the loaded carrier should prove a sufficient deterrent.  Depending on how many fighters the UK actually has on England round 1 (we still don’t know, I’m thinking 3-4 for balance purposes), whether you build the 2 transports or the destroyer/sub combo in addition to the carrier will be based on how well England can respond UK1.  At any rate, a fleet capable of supporting a Sealion will be ready to go.  Pull your tanks and infantry into Western Germany depending on how bad the losses were in France, at least enough to fill the transports you will build.  Germany should have around 60+ IPCs with the money looted from France as well.

    Additional G1 strategy:  This is a bit riskier, but it may in fact work better in bringing England to its knees.  The AB in Western Germany allows the starting fighters and tac bombers to reach England G1.  3 fighters, 2 tacs and the bomber buzzing England could conceivably KO the RAF the first round since there’s only 1 inf as a soak at game start.  This attempt would depend on how many UK fighters are present at setup (1-4?), plus you are risking a lot to AA fire.  The remaining fighter and tac could attack only one battleship, too, so the UK could counterattack your fleet building in SZ 112.  But this attack would be the equivalent of cutting the UK off at the knees, since without the 3-4 fighter 4s defending the island, any UK infantry stack will be at a severe disadvantage.  I think it might be worth a shot.

    G2:  All right, this is where you make the British player cry.  If the UK player was stupid and built all naval units, use your fleet, remaining subs, and airforce to tear it to shreds in SZ 110.  Your 1-3 transports should be able to get through the carnage and land with enough force to take the island (should only be a few inf plus the 3-4 fighters).  A few fighters and the bomber helping out the 6 land units should do the trick.

    If the UK player was smart and built 8 infantry and a tank, you are now facing around 10 inf and 1 tank in addition to the 3-4 fighters the UK starts the game with.  Fairly daunting task to chew through, but not impossible, especially with your French IPCs.  Germany should have upper 50s, if not 60+, IPCs at start of G2.  Depending on whether you have built 2 transports the first turn or the destroyer/sub combo, you still have the option of building up to 8 transports off SZ 112.  However many you decide to build, make sure you have enough armor/artillery/inf to make the crossing count.  Germany starts with plenty of both and two turns is more than enough time to pull everything together in Western Germany for the invasion.

    G3:  Right now you probably ought to be building some ground units to start defending eastern Europe from Russia on Round 4, but who cares about that!  SEALION!!!  I’m looking at a total of up to 9 transports (1 starting with 8+ built over 2 turns), with possibly 6-7 armor, up to 3 artillery, 9 infantry, plus your 4 fighters, 3 tac and 1 regular bomber ready to go G3 (possibly more than 8 transports if you built 2 extra transports G1).  The MOST the UK player can come up with is around 20 inf, 3 tanks, and 4 planes after they build UK2 (and this is if they are PERFECT, i.e. pull back everything, and go defensive everywhere else).  With AA hits, the battle should still be slightly in your favor…  But I know slightly may not be good enough for you experienced AA players.  The best part about this strategy is that there are options before you reach this juncture.

    If UK builds all land units UK1, you can chicken out G2 (Pysche!), and instead build a moderate inf/tank/air combination with the French IPCs, and either pull the fleet back into the Baltic to use against Russia G3-4, or go kamikaze with it and try to hold as much of the Atlantic as long as you can.  Using the Normandy minor IC you can even reinforce the fleet with subs or a few transports a turn to keep Britain on the defensive; but I think after UK3 taking the island just isn’t going to happen, with the US forces incoming.  The land units UK built in England the first turn should help Italy out in Africa, at the very least.  This pretty much sums up the German Sealion strategy.

    PROS:  Taking England G2-3.  Even if you barely manage to take the island (like with 1 tank), you should have enough transports and ground units to permanently hold onto it the following round.  Once the US enters the war, holding onto Britain will definitely be more dicey, but with 9 transports able to reinforce, plus the fleet being easily rebuilt/reinforced from England, the US should be having its hands full.  Japan (in Global) should be having a field day in the Pacific, if nothing else.  Italy should also be having fun in Africa.  The fleet can also be used to invade Russia at Leningrad on a whim.

    CONS:  You’re sinking two rounds of IPCs (plus France’s) into transports!!!  Very risky if Britain knows what it’s doing and builds all infantry.  The US and Russian players can make hay out of your naval gamble.  Russia will definitely get huge and dangerous once you pull everything back to Western Germany for the invasion.  Good luck trying to defend the transport stack from the US if you lose all your fighters taking Britain!

    P.S.  I’m thinking that sending most of your air units to attack the 4 British fighters at game start might be the best option in crippling the UK’s chances for defending the island.  Even if you lose half your air force killing them off (5? 4? hits) the UK will be hard pressed with just ground units defending.  Guess we’ll see when the game goes out to the public at the end of the month.



  • I replied to your post in Battle of the Atlantic.  Very good analysis SgtBlitz!  I prefer your “Additional G1 Strategy”…KO the RAF on turn 1.



  • Woot!!!  The E40 setup has been verified and Britain has only THREE fighters to defend England with Round 1.  German surprise strike on England G1 is even better odds now!!!   If you fight with the minimum number of air to get 5 hits on England (2 inf plus 3 fighters), you could conceivably have enough air remaining with the sub attacks to down both battleships in SZs 110 and 111!  You might not have to build a carrier even, and threaten England G2 with a 4 transport buy!!!  OPERATION SEALION FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I guess that means France does not have to fall on G1, but it also means France wont fall on G1. That can be good or bad.



  • And this was considered a very credible strategy in real life, the UK just had amazing fighter pilots that out-dog-fight-ed the Germans, I guess that is equivalent to the UK getting perfect rolls in this game.



  • I just battle calc’d France with everything Germany could throw in, 10 inf (6 reg plus 4 mech), 2 art, and 5 tanks vs. France’s 7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks, and 1 fig; there’s a 95% chance of success for the attacker.  The attacker (Germany) even has ~7 units remaining, so the tank stack would be intact.  Italy could even take out Southern France before France’s turn to eliminate the artillery (France’s last offensive unit) if France’s fall was really close.

    No German air in the battle for France doesn’t mean that France will survive; it does mean that Germany will probably take a lot of needless casualties accomplishing this.  Pulling all the tanks back from Romania, Slovakia, and Poland to Western Germany for Sealion will also leave the Eastern Front hopelessly weak.  But for taking out BOTH France and Britain on the first three turns it’s definitely a gamble I’d take.



  • @maverick_76:

    And this was considered a very credible strategy in real life, the UK just had amazing fighter pilots that out-dog-fight-ed the Germans, I guess that is equivalent to the UK getting perfect rolls in this game.

    Hee, imagine getting 5 sixes with your air raid, and the UK rolling 2 AA hits, 2 twos on inf hits, and 4 ones with the fighters defending…



  • Yeah that is pretty much what happened in real life.



  • your additional g1 strategy for killing raf forgot the glorious french inf at england, so there are 2 inf to saok up hits 😛



  • I dont think 1 INF is that big of a deal, but if the UK at start forces are adjusted to make a Sea Lion less likely, perhaps adding a couple-three more French INF would be the way to do it, and give the French a bit more to work with.



  • Yeah, I bet that the Allies are going to need a bid specifically because of this weak spot the UK has at the beginning.  2 inf (1 brit, 1 french) aren’t enough to protect the RAF.



  • After studying the map and the initial setup, I think that although a G1 air raid on UK will be feasible, it will not be compatible with a G2 Sea Lion (and possibly a G3 Sea Lion as well, though that is harder to plot out).

    Germany has 6 fighters/TACs and a bomber that can reach UK, and one fighter that can’t (Norway).  If you attack with 5 Fighters/TACs and a bomber, you expect 1 AA hit, and the battle will then be two threes and three fours against two twos and three fours.  Basically even, and expecting a mutual annihilation.  (Also, two of the attacking fours get degrated to threes when their matching fighter gets destroyed, so effectively they’re fours that have to get hit first), so that battle really is almost dead even.  Therefore, you’ll want to attack with all seven aircraft that can attack, getting reduced to 6 and winning while losing about 2/3s of your air force.  That leaves 5 subs, one fighter, and the Baltic Fleet to destroy as many UK ships as possible.  The Baltic fleet can destroy the Cruisers in SZ112, but may lose a cruiser to do so (~50%).  Two subs can destroy the destroyer and transport.  Three subs and a plane can destroy one battleship+escort, but the other Battleship and escort will survive.  They plus the carrier, TAC, and destroyer in Gibraltar can attack SZ112, which means that you can’t just load it up with transports, and if you build enough to defend that SZ (An aircraft carrier, landing two of your surviving planes is your best bet, which would let you buy two more transports), you probably don’t have enough transports to take UK on G2 if they build all infantry.

    G3 might be doable, but the permutations get out of control.

    I think, if you’re going to do Sea Lion, you’ll need to focus your air force on destroying UK’s navy, rather than strafing their air force.

    I feel a little bit better now.



  • G3 UK Crush + J3 India Crush!


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I just battle calc’d France with everything Germany could throw in, 10 inf (6 reg plus 4 mech), 2 art, and 5 tanks vs. France’s 7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks, and 1 fig; there’s a 95% chance of success for the attacker.  The attacker (Germany) even has ~7 units remaining, so the tank stack would be intact.  Italy could even take out Southern France before France’s turn to eliminate the artillery (France’s last offensive unit) if France’s fall was really close.

    Ok lets say Germany attacks UK on G1 with everything they got. What do they have left to fight France with if they try both?

    Sealion seems best attempted on G1, because you don’t know what UK will do if they are given another turn to survive. They may might buy all infantry to block.

    Can you run the numbers of doing both and having Italy do its part as well?



  • @Imperious:

    Sealion seems best attempted on G1, because you don’t know what UK will do if they are given another turn to survive. They may might buy all infantry to block.

    I’m pretty sure G1 Sea Lion is impossible because there are naval units in SZs 110, 111, and 112, so there’s no way for the German transport to break through.



  • Again I’m sure this was play-tested for and if Sealion is a possible move it will most likely severely cripple the Germans from taking France or building a offense to attack Russia.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '15 Customizer

    @maverick_76:

    Again I’m sure this was play-tested for and if Sealion is a possible move it will most likely severely cripple the Germans from taking France or building a offense to attack Russia.

    I was just gonna say that if Germany tries this and fails… they are basically screwed for the game. Russia will be massive, the US will be moving out… It isn’t pretty. It is a massive gamble, but hey, some people are into that… that’s fine. If I was Britain I would certainly build all Infantry and the tank. Building ships would be dumb.

    What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?



  • @LHoffman:

    What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?

    Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '15 Customizer

    @purplebaron:

    @LHoffman:

    What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?

    Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.

    Man! This is crap!



  • @LHoffman:

    @purplebaron:

    @LHoffman:

    What does the US start with in Eastern US? If they have planes, they could fly them to Britain to reinforce it as well as they can… plus it would force Germany into attacking US units and thus bringing them into the war earlier… right?

    Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.

    Man! This is crap!

    I can imagine you saying

    "Ah Snap!  :x "
    😄


  • 2018 2017 '16 '15 Customizer

    @Dylan:

    @LHoffman:

    @purplebaron:

    Until the US is at war, it can’t move its units into even friendly territories, so US can’t help out.

    Man! This is crap!

    I can imagine you saying

    "Ah Snap!  :x "
    😄

    Nan, “Snap” isn’t so much in my typical list of expressions. I am more the: “Awww MAN! Dang it!  :x” type.



  • Certainly the idea of pulling off Sea Lion has a sort of romantic flair.  However, it is also something that bothers me from a realism and balance perspective.

    In terms of realism, my understanding is that in 1940 British home fleet (not to mention the entire navy) assets were at something like a 10 to 1 advantage over the entire Germany surface fleet.  As for U-Boats, while they were a crucial economic weapon, they were of limited value against large surface formations.  The whole idea that Germany can sink most of the  British navy round 1 seems rather absurd.  Then there is the RAF.  German planners felt that Sea Lion had no chance unless air superiority could be achieved over the channel.  That was not something they had, nor were they ever able to achieve it despite some effort.  It would have required sustained effort to have had even a chance.  Definitely not round 1 and done.  Finally, they did not have the means to transport and keep in supply the number of troops and equipment necessary for an amphibious invasion.  They had no landing craft, for example, and would need to rely on river barges.

    For all of these reasons, and others, Sea Lion was shelved to the relief of the generals, who thought they could easily lose badly.

    As to balance, only time and a number of games will tell.  However, it seems Britain already has its hands full in the Pacific and Africa in this game.  A credible (or should I say INcredible) threat of successful German invasion that forces them into an all infantry to London build seems an unreasonable hindrance to the Allied effort.  I can see making the British fleet under-represented to keep them off Germany for a while as a game mechanic.  However, 1 British and 1 French infantry in UK does not seem at all realistic or balanced.  I agree with the suggestion that adding a few (either nation) would probably be a good solution.



  • What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports?  :?



  • @Shakespeare:

    What about German paratroops eliminating the need for transports?   :?

    Excellent point.   Just need to be within 3 spaces of an airbase, correct?



  • I agree with BlueIguana on most of what he wrote.

    Even the surface combat fleet was an economic raiding tool, rather than any assistance for Sea Lion.

    Back in the 70’s the British war college or something like that wargamed it out.  In the wargame, the Germans were able to make the landings, but the Royal Navy was able to eventually cut off the landings, which isolated the Germans, game over.  I dont think you can say the attempt and landings were impossible.

    Here are some if’s for a possible Sea Lion:  If the Germans had captured the 340,000 Allied troops at Dunkirk, and the Luftwaffe had concentrated their air power only over the Channel and a little past the British beaches, knock out the radar antenna’s daily instead of going far interior, make the landings in July, there might have been a chance.  My biggest problem at this point is supply…would the royal navy have broken into a heavily mined English Channel, and how long would that have taken?  Would the Luftwaffe done a number on the Royal Navy?..their showing at Dunkirk was disapointing from that view and question.  The lack of landing craft and the lack of appropriate kinds of aircraft(longer range FTR’s, and a very large number of Condor’s) make Sea Lion even ify’er.

    From a AA standpoint I think a Sea Lion should be a possibility since you should not be saddled with the poor planning of Hitler, and then there is the ‘fun factor’ for the game itself.


Log in to reply
 

Suggested Topics

  • 3
  • 5
  • 39
  • 11
  • 1
  • 1
  • 12
  • 2
I Will Never Grow Up Games
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures
Dean's Army Guys

69
Online

14.5k
Users

35.1k
Topics

1.4m
Posts