If the Axis won, who take Washington



  • What do you think.



  • Japan, since Germany had no significant navy


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Why isn’t Rio De Oro not a choice?



  • @Imperious:

    Why isn’t Rio De Oro not a choice?

    Then vote for other, but I really don’t think they need one  🙂



  • Washington would never had been under threat. The only possibility would have been for the axis to fund a group within the United States.



  • @ABWorsham:

    Washington would never had been under threat. The only possibility would have been for the axis to fund a group within the United States.

    Are you sure, like even if Germany didn’t attack US, I bet Japan (if they could,) most likely would, at least of what I think.



  • @Dylan:

    @ABWorsham:

    Washington would never had been under threat. The only possibility would have been for the axis to fund a group within the United States.

    Are you sure, like even if Germany didn’t attack US, I bet Japan (if they could,) most likely would, at least of what I think.

    I don’t think so.  Japan was more concerned with building a buffer around their home island.  They didn’t seem as interested in world domination like Germany.  If Japan did have grand plans of expansion I think that would have lead them deeper into Asia not North America.



  • USA would not fall even if the axis won WW2. Germany would take most of Europe, and the neutral states during the war would be puppet states after the war. How far east Germany would stretch is hard to say, but probably not further than the Ural mountains. Japan would lose anyway, unless they did not go to war against the US.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    If the axis held Europe, Africa, Middle East, and Asia for any duration of time it would only be a matter of time where the total resources and labor will out-build anything America can do.

    They would have significant assets to give us a two front war. South America would not offer much resistance.



  • In this scenario were the axis held every thing except the americas I think Japan and Germany would split america down the middle. After a joint assault.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16

    @ABWorsham:

    Washington would never had been under threat. The only possibility would have been for the axis to fund a group within the United States.

    the Nazis did infiltrate the U.S even before the war started and was not less succesful with it as well…Kuntz I think was his name and he cheered the Americans up to join the Axis…when Hitler made the call Heim ins Reich many followed!..



  • @Dylan:

    @ABWorsham:

    Washington would never had been under threat. The only possibility would have been for the axis to fund a group within the United States.

    Are you sure, like even if Germany didn’t attack US, I bet Japan (if they could,) most likely would, at least of what I think.

    Japan did not have the man power or the land mobility to capture the U.S. The best the Japanese could do would would have been to capture a port city.
    However, if the Axis could get an armed communist revoltion, or eithnic minorities to fight a war a invasion is possible.



  • @Imperious:

    If the axis held Europe, Africa, Middle East, and Asia for any duration of time it would only be a matter of time where the total resources and labor will out-build anything America can do.

    They would have significant assets to give us a two front war. South America would not offer much resistance.

    The axis powers and especially Germany would have most of Eurasia, and then would have good odds to win the cold war, but as the real cold war never escalated between Soviet and US directly b/c of nukes, I think the US would hold it’s ground, and probably South America, although Latin America would be guerrilla territory, as different fractions would be supported by the US and Germany. But even if the Sovietunion lost the cold war b/c it was dissolved, Russia is a major European big power, and Russia has not been overrun by NATO b/c Russia has nukes. Same goes for US if Germany controlled most of Eurasia, since both Germany and US would have nukes, there would be no direct confrontation. US could even occupy South America to secure the continent and themselves, during a cold war against Germany.
    In the “second book” by Hitler, (Mein Kampf is the best known), Hitler thought that if Germany won the war, there would be a huge world war between US and Germany during 1980’s.



  • I don’t think either power could have taken Washington and it seems impossible to imagine a foreign power able to occupy the United States of America against the will of its citizens. Now if they got the bomb first they might have just tried to obliterate us.



  • IF one of them managed to take Washington, it would’ve been Japan, in my opinion. Japan was lightyears ahead of Germany on navy, as the Kriegsmarine was just plain pitiful compared to whatever the US could get up. The time to construct a navy would have put Germany far behind, and the Japs would already be on the mainland for some time before Germany got close.


  • '12

    The Axis powers would NEVER cooperate with a communist anything.  Hitler HATED communists nearly as much as he hated jews.  I doubt Japan would have been down with a philosophy where everyone was equal peasant and samuri with was no room for the emperor.

    Japan might have been able to invade Washington state if about 100 things were different.  But to trek across a few 1000 miles of territory with rather well armed and hostile natives to get to DC?  Or the other choice to launch an invasion fleet and have it sail 10,000 miles (or more?) around south america to come up on the east coast or invaded panama first to gain control of the canal to shorten the invasion fleet trip?

    The allies prepared and built up for D-Day for 2 years.  They had an unsinkable aircraft carrier 25 miles from shore about the same size as Great Britain from which to launch the invasion from.  Only with sh@* luck and the incompetence of Hitler was D-day successful.

    Japan had no technology to force a US surrender and for ‘old-school’ military…by 1943 the US was producing in a month as many machine guns as Japan produced in the entire war.

    The ONLY way the US was going to lose is if Germany got nukes first and they were NOWHERE even close to deploying a nuclear bomb.
    God I hate these text boxes, why is it that when I hit the bottom of the screen the text in the box jumps up and down when I type, friggin annoying to have to use a text editor to creat the post then copy and paste it in here…ugh!



  • MrmalachiCrunch

    I think that you are taking the question out of context.  The question wasn’t who had the resources to take the US.  I think that the US mainland was out of the scope of what Japan wanted. That simply leaves Germany as the only viable option left.

    LT


  • '12

    Ah well perhaps I did.  Assuming Hitler had been smarter a few for instances.  Put Germany’s economy on a war footing in 1938 instead of 1944.  Waited a few years before starting the war, many German planners figured 1945 would be a good start date.  A fleet of bismark class ships to escort fleet carriers along with a fleet of 100s of uboats rather than the less that 100? to start the war with.  Let’s say jet power and heavy 4 engine bombers that Germany never really had.  Now let’s say they beat England, then Russia.  No way they EVER build enough of a fleet to do an invasion anywhere in Pan-America.  They would still need atomic bombs to force a defeat.

    Even with superior resourses the allies would never have beaten Germany if not for that mutual meatgrinder called the USSR who accounted for 9 out of 10 casualties.  If Germany thought they had it rough in the USSR, imagine urban warfare in a city where every american had 2 really sweet guns.

    I wish I could remember the title of the book I read as a kid, I think it was by Arthur C. Clarke, oh I will have to google this.  The premise was a story line about 100 years past the start of WW II.  America stayed neutral, europe and asia spiraled into the stoneage, communication was lost and amrican ships would not pass certain longitude lines bisecting the pacific and atlantic oceans.  All the america’s formed a commonwealth……now to google!



  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    I wish I could remember the title of the book I read as a kid, I think it was by Arthur C. Clarke, oh I will have to google this.  The premise was a story line about 100 years past the start of WW II.  America stayed neutral, europe and asia spiraled into the stoneage, communication was lost and amrican ships would not pass certain longitude lines bisecting the pacific and atlantic oceans.  All the america’s formed a commonwealth……now to google!

    When you find the name of the book, then please post it in the Science Fiction/Fantasy Book Forum thread below.  I really enjoy reading alternate history novels.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15842.75



  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    Ah well perhaps I did.   Assuming Hitler had been smarter a few for instances.  Put Germany’s economy on a war footing in 1938 instead of 1944.  Waited a few years before starting the war, many German planners figured 1945 would be a good start date.  A fleet of bismark class ships to escort fleet carriers along with a fleet of 100s of uboats rather than the less that 100? to start the war with.  Let’s say jet power and heavy 4 engine bombers that Germany never really had.  Now let’s say they beat England, then Russia.  No way they EVER build enough of a fleet to do an invasion anywhere in Pan-America.  They would still need atomic bombs to force a defeat.

    You make a good point.  The only problem I see with that is according to the treaty that Germany signed and the end of WWI they were not allowed to have a standing army over a specific number of people.  They were not allowed to have air fields or ports.  At some point they wouldn’t be able to hide a force like that.

    LT


  • '12

    Well right you are but…… the allies did nothing to stop Germany from breaking the treaty of Versailles which limited them to capital ships not to exceed 10,000 tonnes.  The pocket battleships were slightly over this but then Germany started building battlecruisers and full sized battleships like the tirpitz and bismark.

    Germany could not build U-boats but started to, they reoccupied the ruhr.  They were not supposed to have much of an airforce so Germany had the best ‘civilian’ airliners and fleet, trained their pilots in the spanish civil war.

    By the time 1938 rolled around, the French were still traumitized by WW I and anybody warning of hitler was called a warmongerer ie churchill.  Basically the allies pussied out, could have crushed hitler in 36 when he first broke the treaty and reoccuppied the ruhr.



  • Ok so the Allies still had a bad taste in their mouth from WWI and was busy being positive not wanting to rock the boat.

    That certainly would have given the Axis more time to prepare even after breaking the treaty.


  • '12

    It is truly scarely to think of what could have occurred had Hitler been a bit more long sighted and a bit less of a gambler.  Had he waited for his genocide campaign and used some PR he might have been able to knock off the allies one by one without the others declaring war.

    I think the US naval philosophy after WW I actually saw England as the #1 force the US atlantic fleet would fight and their entire doctrine of fleet buys and strategy revolved around crushing the Brit fleet….up until the late 1930s if I am not mistaken.

    Had the Germans sold their long term plan to the Japs to have them ‘play nicer’ in their brutal campaign in China the US might not have embargoed (sp?) the Japs early in 41, they might have waited a few years for Pearl Harbour or might not have needed to once the european powers finally folded and the east indies fell into Jap hands by default.

    With democracies still stung by WW I’s lost generation their might not have been enough public support to win the long war…  Yikes!



  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    The Axis powers would NEVER cooperate with a communist anything.  Hitler HATED communists nearly as much as he hated jews.  I doubt Japan would have been down with a philosophy where everyone was equal peasant and samuri with was no room for the emperor.

    Japan might have been able to invade Washington state if about 100 things were different.  But to trek across a few 1000 miles of territory with rather well armed and hostile natives to get to DC?  Or the other choice to launch an invasion fleet and have it sail 10,000 miles (or more?) around south america to come up on the east coast or invaded panama first to gain control of the canal to shorten the invasion fleet trip?

    The allies prepared and built up for D-Day for 2 years.  They had an unsinkable aircraft carrier 25 miles from shore about the same size as Great Britain from which to launch the invasion from.  Only with sh@* luck and the incompetence of Hitler was D-day successful.

    Japan had no technology to force a US surrender and for ‘old-school’ military…by 1943 the US was producing in a month as many machine guns as Japan produced in the entire war.

    The ONLY way the US was going to lose is if Germany got nukes first and they were NOWHERE even close to deploying a nuclear bomb.
    God I hate these text boxes, why is it that when I hit the bottom of the screen the text in the box jumps up and down when I type, friggin annoying to have to use a text editor to creat the post then copy and paste it in here…ugh!

    I think the real question is, if Sea lion and Barbarossa were successful and the Nazi’s defeated both Britain and the Soviet Union. In addition to the Japanese defeating the Chinese and the European powers in South East Asia.

    There would of been a reasonable chance of them turning their agression on the Americans sooner or later after they crushed the last of the guerilla resistance, this would of been especially successful if the Germans and Japanese were more friendly to the peasantry and civilians of both China, Russia and Ukraine. With the manpower on your side from both the ruins of the USSR and China you could outnumber the Americans in battle 3 to 1 at the very least.

    Add to that the power of the IJN if they hadnt gone to war with the USA and only the European powers in South East Asia it would of been a match for the US Navy especially if the Americans thought they were safe from the Eurasian war and maintained their isalationist policies. Within a decade of the defeat of the British, USSR and Chinese, the Kreigsmarine and IJN could of launched a naval and aerial assault on the United States first taking Hawaii and the strategically important Carribean Islands. Then begin the Strategic bombing of US shipyards, Industrial centres and a blockade of US ports.

    Also inspire an uprising amongst the long suffering Latin Americans who have been slaves to American interest since the end of the Spanish-American war of 1898 who would be more than willing to see there brothers in arms marching down Pennsylvania avenue. All the Axis would of had to of promised was Texas, New Mexico, Arizon and maybe a few other choice bits of real estate back to the Mexicans and they would of had allies as long as they had support from the German Armoured divisions and Luftwaffe as well as the Japanese airfoce they would of been able to overrun the border states quite quickly and the government in Washington may very well of sued for peace right then and there or fight to the bitter end.

    One of the biggest variables in all of this would of been would the Manhattan project of gone ahead without American involvement in WW2? If it hadnt and the Axis had of won I would not want to be an American facing down a Tiger Tank fresh of the boat in New Orleans with a Tommy gun and Colt .45 or worrying about a Stuka dive bombing the factory where you work. The Industrial giant that was 1940’s America could of been toppled but only with the manpower and industrial power of the Soviet Union at Axis disposal.



  • Neither Germany nor Japan had a realistic chance of invading the U.S. As has been pointed out, the D-Day invasion required almost complete local naval supremacy, a massive buildup, and a relatively narrow English Channel to cross. For either Germany or Japan to ship a large-scale invasion force across the Atlantic or the Pacific does not seem feasible to me. The best possibility that I can see along these lines would be for Japan to use an island hopping campaign to gradually capture the Aleutian islands, one by one, and so to eventually reach Alaska. But there would have been a number of inherent problems with that plan; most notably including the comparative weakness of the Japanese Army relative to the American Army, the fact that Japan’s army was tied down elsewhere (especially in China), the adverse weather conditions that the Japanese Army and Navy would encounter during the Aleutian island hopping campaign and on the Alaskan mainland, etc.

    It is also worth noting that neither Germany nor Japan had any plans to conquer the U.S. (The idea that Germany wanted world domination represented part of FDR’s pre-war and wartime propaganda effort, and bears no relation to reality.) Nazism was in large part a response to WWI and the Versailles Treaty. During WWI, Britain and France had imposed a food blockade against Germany; resulting in the starvation of about 750,000 people. After the war was over, Britain continued the food blockade into 1919 to force Germany to sign the Versailles Treaty. After that treaty was signed, a large portion of German foreign currency was used on reparations payments to Britain and France; which during hard economic times meant there was not enough foreign currency left over to buy imported food with which to feed the German people. As a result of this widespread hunger within Germany both during and after the war, Hitler wanted to conquer enough lebensraum to ensure that Germany could adequately feed its people out of its own resources.

    More generally, Hitler wanted to ensure Germany was too strong to ever again experience a Versailles Treaty. The long-range goal of Nazi foreign policy was the conquest of the Soviet Union; or at least that portion of the Soviet Union west of the Ural mountains. That conquest would secure Germany against any future Allied food blockades, would prevent it from being defeated in any European land war (as it had been in WWI), and would give it the industrial capacity and access to raw materials necessary to hold its own in an air war against Britain or any other belligerent. It would also wipe out communism, at least assuming (as Hitler evidently hoped) that the communist government of the Soviet Union collapsed after losing everything west of the Urals.


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