• FDR staged Pearl harbor.

    A secret force was created to attack PH. Records were changed to cover the American carrier force that left Pearl shortly before the attack. Remember that the carrier was there?
    How convenient that the Japanese did not hit the fuel reserves or oil refineries.
    My dad was one of the Japanese Americans recruited for the mission.

    America followed FDR like lemmings to water.

    I like to see evidence of this… :-?


  • @Maruikazi:

    FDR staged Pearl harbor.

    A secret force was created to attack PH. Records were changed to cover the American carrier force that left Pearl shortly before the attack. Remember that the carrier was there?
    How convenient that the Japanese did not hit the fuel reserves or oil refineries.
    My dad was one of the Japanese Americans recruited for the mission.

    America followed FDR like lemmings to water.

    How about the Japanese Japanese that took part and planned the attack.

    Oh, I get it, its the FBI or CIA lying to us again.

    History is one big coverup.

    Its America’s fault……what else is new
    They sercetly planned all of WW2…Hitler was an American.
    Ri-dic-ulous.


  • @alamein:

    i was wondering- since none of us were around then. how we would have felt in the summer of 41. europe was engulfed in a war against a nazi juggernaut. and many people felt that it was none of our business. SERIOUSLY consider my obsurdity (we need a darn spell checker). we all have the same feelings then as we do now. does it make sense for us to tell our navy to shoot german ships on sight? does it make sense to protect british shipping clear up to Iceland? can’t that be considered war? why should our boys die for them? hitler’s not so bad, all he’s doing is making up for france and britian’s unjust treaty? this is all political, the presidents just trying to find any excuse to go to war.

    play along- I’m not making a point here, just an observation. remember we were neutral (officially) and many people felt that roosevelt was pushing us into war with germany (hitler’s crimes were not yet known, and the nazi’s were mowing thru russia). we of course have the benefit of hindsight now, but pretend the outcome was still uncertain. put your arguments to task here.
    I naturally would say war. but that’s with the benefit of all the info. pre 45- who knows? what would you say?

    Yanny - Editted Topic to better reflect the thread.

    Actually, some historians believe that Roosevelt and Churchill knew about Hitlers’ war crimes in 1941, but did nothing about them. At that point in the war there was not much tye could do. Others believed they knew in 1943 and that despite some suggestions to Roosevelt to attack the Nazi death camps, the Allies decided not to divert planes from dropping napalms on German cities and to bombing the railroads to Auschwitz and Dachau.

    Almost all the European peoples were cruel to the Jews, with the exception of the Danes and the Bulgarians notably. There were other righteous gnetiles, but for every country that had a large amount of righteous gentiles, there was usually an even larger number of people who would rat out on the Jews living in those areas. I have never read anything about Lithuania and Latvia being worse than the Nazis.

    The US would have entered the war without Pearl Harbor, though it probably would have taken a little more time.


  • TINKER/ F_alk-
    ok technically I guess you could say hitler didn’t invade he liberated- I’ll grant that.
    to the EMU GOd- ok let’s not trap me into another technicallity- many of the inhabbitants of the baltic states did embrace the german’s as liberators and like the nazis were quick to blame their problems on the jews. they not only turned them over to the nazis- they out rightly murdered them. and one of the more dedicated ss units was the ss frei willengen, which I can’t remember but may have even held out til near the end of the war and had to be totally annihalated. also I know at least two of these divisions were exclusively latvian. - I have some ss books I can look up specifics if you want, also see war of the century- they actually had several estonian volunteers on it who bragged about killing jews and children. one of them said he was always trying to be merciful by aiming right for the childrens heart so they wouldn’t suffer-
    YEAH I’m barbaric.


  • ps I wrote crustic earlier today , that was a goof. I meant crystic but have cold hands. I really would like some source articles for these things-
    no offense intended


  • Didn’t some Latvians make up the foreign Waffen SS?


  • @F_alk:

    @StrongBad1988:

    germany only declared war on us AFTER pearl harbor, and this was only b/c they knew we would declare war on them soon enough.

    On of the reasons why Hitler declared war on the US was to show that he still held the initiative in the war, after the winter showed that the USSR would not collapse but had its first successes.

    actully Falk he declared war ont he good oll USA cus Japan told Hitler that if he declared war on AMerica they would invade Siberia. but the Japanese did not hold on there part of the agreement just so they would not take the brunt of the American Assualt alone.


  • alamein, I went back to your original post and i’m wondering if you got the type of answers you were looking for or expected? or did the thread wander?


  • Both sides weren’t thinking too straight.


  • Tg actually I did site that at least two of these ss divisions were exclusively latvian- but to answer your question - I did not specify the waffen ss - which is what they were.
    Tinker - well I did get a lot of what I wanted. I was slightly dissapointed by some of the responses. and yes it did wander a bit. the reason I originally started it was to see if we could set aside the outcome- place ourselves in the seriousness of the moment- and still formulate the same opinions we currently have over IraQ.
    Not to trap anybody- but just to see how deep of a resentment we each carry towards current affiars.
    what I mean is -many of us think this war is being carried out poorly. some still side with the president and feel national security is at stake, while others counter various ways, and accuse others of reciting propaganda.
    However I think that most of us, with one noteable exception regarded ww2 as a good war. for whatever reason we went to war - the end result was good for everyone- except F_alk who hates me. tyranny was ended and ultimately freedom and liberty have been restored to europe.
    so I expected to hear people flip flop on some issues- especially the propaganda- but they didn’t. they stuck with their biased views and condemned or applauded the war, or fronted conspiracy theories- just as they have been doing on Iraq.
    conclusion- ??? either it was not a good enough test, or like I have been saying- your reality (truth vs lies) is what you perceive it to be- and cannot be affected easily by facts. Ie unless saddam delivers a nuke to NY, yanni probably won’t budge an inch. :)


  • @alamein:

    ps I wrote crustic earlier today , that was a goof. I meant crystic but have cold hands. I really would like some source articles for these things-
    no offense intended

    no problem
    It was a long time ago that i read about this. One source that i do recall is “a man called Intrepid”. Can’t remember the others offhand (i remember that one 'cuz Intrepid was a Winnipegger).
    Oh,
    and nice to see you again Mr. Ghoul. Afraid i might not get another game in with you before i take of too Portugal and Ottawa for 7 weeks, but it’s nice to see you online regardless . . . .


  • Tg actually I did site that at least two of these ss divisions were exclusively latvian- but to answer your question - I did not specify the waffen ss - which is what they were.

    Well I sure that there were some Latvian Waffen SS. They could be like the Wallonien, Waffen SS units composed of Belgian Walloon volunteers who had joined to help the Third Reich fight the Soviet Union.

    for whatever reason we went to war - the end result was good for everyone- except F_alk who hates me. tyranny was ended and ultimately freedom and liberty have been restored to europe.

    Well think of it this way: Was the lucky rabbit foot so lucky for the rabbit from which it was taken from? We see was as good from our perspective. But this is topic on different perspectives, so I am sure other people will have different thoughts. As for F_alk, I bet he doesn’t hate you. Anybody who lives near black and white cows could never hate someone. :)

    Ie unless saddam delivers a nuke to NY, yanni probably won’t budge an inch.

    My greatest, fear is that if Saddam gives the means (NBC or whatever) to terrorist, which in turn use it against us. In many cases the materials is untraceable. Saddam is someone with an axe to grind, and rather than risk his own regime to carry it out, he will resort to more secretive means.


  • @alamein:

    Tinker- you bring up a very interesting point.

    f_alk. we were discussing the summer of 41
    …and soon there after AG north did invade the baltic states (latvia estonia and lithuania… and I don’t think we’re any more prone to violence or war than anyone else. why in germany they say “auslander Raus” like we say “hello”.

    i really have to grin at this posting, alamein.

    To correct some points:
    I answered to Tinker, but i am happy to take the blame for shifting the period of time we are discussing……
    about the baltics, Tinker has got it right there…

    And in germany we say “Ausländer raus” as you go into Highschools and start massacres, just to keep sticking to prejudices… just as each and every muslim wants to kill all americans personally.


  • @Tinker:

    Also when were the medal of honors given out? I believe they were around 36’-38’??. This fits in with Hitler trying to sooth over American industry leaders, whom were enjoying the money and thier empolyees enjoyed feeding their children. Thomas Watson was a attractive traget because he was the president of the International Chamber of Commerce in 37’ which Hitler was using to his advantage. But industry could see (or so I hope) that times were changing very quickly.

    True, the medals were given at that time. I know that IBM did trade with Germany until very short before the declaration of war though….
    And hopefully industries sees tiems changing, but from what the Iraqs report says, they don’t, neither german, nor US companies… profit is what counts…


  • @alamein:

    However I think that most of us, with one noteable exception regarded ww2 as a good war. for whatever reason we went to war - the end result was good for everyone- except F_alk who hates me.

    i do assume that i am the one exception, right? What makes you think of that?
    And i do not hate you… i think you are another good example of “why does the rest of the world think of the americans the way they do”… it’s not hate, but i wouldn’t be too happy if i saw you in a position of power.
    If you had more Colin Powells in these positions, it would look differently… just look up what he said concerning the US-german relations at the time. And then compare that to the words of your minister of defence… you will probably think the latter is right, but that would just strengthen my beliefs of you.


  • @TG:

    Anybody who lives near black and white cows could never hate someone. :)

    As said before, there are excemptions from the stereotypically-perceived american… but then, he is californian :)…

    TG, in case you are surfing… why don’t you paint your board in these colours ;)


  • @alamein:

    tyranny was ended and ultimately freedom and liberty have been restored to europe.

    Unfortunately we moved right into the Cold War after WWII and that was also fought in Europe, but mostly in Germany. And a different type of tyranny appeared. But this should be on a different post, sorry to change directions.
    We’ll return now to our regularly scheduled program


  • Sounds like the US has been doing business pretty much the same throughout our history as a country. The locations and politics change, but the scenario is similar. Look back through time. The US military is often engaged without a war declaration. Recent events or WWII is nothing off par…


  • TG, in case you are surfing… why don’t you paint your board in these colours

    Haha, that would sure ward off the sharks. :wink:


  • @cystic:

    @alamein:

    ps I wrote crustic earlier today , that was a goof. I meant crystic but have cold hands. I really would like some source articles for these things-
    no offense intended

    no problem
    It was a long time ago that i read about this. One source that i do recall is “a man called Intrepid”. Can’t remember the others offhand (i remember that one 'cuz Intrepid was a Winnipegger).
    Oh,
    and nice to see you again Mr. Ghoul. Afraid i might not get another game in with you before i take of too Portugal and Ottawa for 7 weeks, but it’s nice to see you online regardless . . . .

    Work has been crap since the layoffs……brutal.
    I haven’t had the chance to post much.
    I’m actually working at work…thats dumb.
    Its been hella stupid here…at work that is… :oops:

    We’ll have to get a game on soon, although I’m questioning my ability…I played a friend who only played A&AE once before. He was Germany and he kicked my ass…dumb…

    If I don’t here from you, have a good trip.

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