• @Janus1:

    ciggarrettes are only legal because you would have 50 million very pissed off and nicotine-deprived peopel on your hands if they were made illegal, and becuase too many people cant justify denying someone else the right to ruin themselves. i think cigarrettes should be illegal, so i dont think legalizing pot is a good idea based on that. plus, its not very helpful to say “since one bad thing is legal, another should be too”

    Well if that’s the case, Janus, don’t you think that alcohol gives the same right for people to ruin themselves as well? If so, wouldn’t it be reasonable to believe that you think alcohol should be illegal as well?
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??? 😮

    :lol: :lol: :lol: Just kiddin, man.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    actually we do have the speciallists that America has. We have an excellent medical education system that is second to no other country.

    the truth is that I would be bounced from orthopedist to orthopedist in canada and none would have sent me to an allergist. This is a fact. my wheat problem took its face in nerve damage, especially in my right elbow and now knee. both would have been considered orthpedic problems.

    So I would have to go through years of orthopedists and still have none send me to an allergist. furthermore, being that I am young and not showing the wheat allergy in an outward fashion, a stool test would be the only working version, not the tests with pricking, blood, and what not. The limited labs that do this particular testing are in America.

    i’m sorry, but how do you know this? i’m not even an orthopod, so i’m not sure how you know this would go on here. I think that prior to sending you to an orthopod your family doc/EMO would want to be assured that it is an orthopaedic injury. This is something that you would more likely be seen by a rheumatologist for. These people would not bounce you around so much, as their tests would be far more likely to have them consider referring you to an allergist if the problem was not something that they would pick up themselves.

    No, what you pay for are HMOs which have to pay for advertising, additional layers of management, profit holders/dividend receivers, and astronomical litigation protection fees for doctors and hospitals, not to mention much higher prices for pharmaceuticals.

    granted, government regulations are an impediment to good healthcare and they exist in america. that is a problem. ideally, government would not mess with healthcare at all.

    I do find it silly that you mention your cheaper prices on drugs because you have price ceilings. Those drugs are made in america and sold to canada cheaper than they sell it to americans. IF America would adopt price ceilings (and not allow the monopolization of drug developments like America) American drug companies would simply stop producing the drugs they usually would and advance would stop. This would lead to not only dramatic shortages in America, but then Canada would literally get a taste of its own medicine.

    Essentially, lacking better words for it, Canada is holding up American drug companies because there is no incentive NOT to make at least some profit in Canada. However, the moment they stop ripping off Americans, Canada would face collasal drug shortages.

    oh really? Is America the only country that produces chemicals/pharmaceuticals? Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?
    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    what does a cold country have to do with a higher life expectancy? There is no correllate between living in a cold country and health.

    You might eb right now come to think of it. In the past, warmer climates spawned diseases and plagues from insects, scewing the statistics. I’m not sure if that is relevant today.

    i don’t think so. Especially if i look at places north of us. Keep in mind too that nearly 90% of the population of Canada lives within 100 km of the US border - furthermore our most populated areas are well south of much of the US. I don’t see that this would contribute that much.

    Just because northern European countries also have universal healthcare and have higher life expectancy rates does not have much to do with cold weather.
    As for our “relatively unhealthy immigrant population” - this is an ignorant statement. Our aboriginal population is quite unhealthy with a massive amount of diabetes, HIV, CVD, etc. Also Canada has a very high proportion of immigrants - possibly as high or higher than that of the US.

    Okay, let me clear up a few blatantly lies.

    1. America has a very unhealthy/alcoholic Native American population. it is a sad but true fact.
    2. 1% of America’s population is native American, 13% of it is black, and about 13% hispanic. All of these ethnicities on average have lower incomes than Asians and Whites. In America, 10% of its population is foreign born according to the 1990 census.

    While America had 9 million legal immigrants (it probably actually has been double), which would account for anywhere from 3 to 6 % of America’s population.
    http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/etoimm/tables/provs/immsh.cfm
    ^^^ Meanwhile in Canada, such immigrants are probably closer to 0.5% to 1.0% approximately.

    3. Canada’s population is approximately 6.3 percent non-white and asian (http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/5thedition/peopleandsociety/population/mcr4189?l=5&r=0&c=2).

    ahhh all the lies you’ve cleared up.

    1. yes - both countries have first nations people screwed over by British/American/Canadian gov’ts.
    2. the “stats can” table i checked suggests that the Canadian non-European/non-American immigrant population is closer to 10% of the Canadian population. You referenced a “1990’s” immigrant table. You don’t think it’s possible that we have immigrants from other decades as well? (i.e. the 80’s, the 2000’s, etc.?)
    3. our non-white and asian population is closer to 13.5% of the population (again the stats can website). This is a low estimate i think, given that nearly half of the population was not counted here as they declared themselves simply as “Canadian” thereby deflating the number of immigrants.

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    but you may have to. Not for anything that you have done, but simply because of bad luck. The thing is, as long as you have an insurance policy, you ARE paying for it, and you are paying more than in a country with universal healthcare.

    If America ridded itself of its medical regulations, the stranglehold of lawyers and insurance companies would die. Smokers pay more for their insurance anyway.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.


  • personnaly, i hate the whole lot, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes etc. but i know that the weak minded couldnt live without their addictions, the government has no business regulating how you ruin your life, so im gonna have to say yes, legalize it, just make a law against using it in public places, i dont wanna smell that when im eating breakfast.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Scientologists will tell you that it’s the case of their past lives wearing on them and their only escape is through illegal narcotics. At least, I think I have that right….I might be wrong about that, given I’m not a scientologist, but I’ve been researching them for personal knowledge. (I like to know what and who I’m talking about before I cry blasphemy and pagan. wink)


  • i’m sorry, but how do you know this? i’m not even an orthopod, so i’m not sure how you know this would go on here. I think that prior to sending you to an orthopod your family doc/EMO would want to be assured that it is an orthopaedic injury. This is something that you would more likely be seen by a rheumatologist for. These people would not bounce you around so much, as their tests would be far more likely to have them consider referring you to an allergist if the problem was not something that they would pick up themselves.

    Not one orthopedist saw any sign of allergy or “nerve damage”. Nerve tests they had administered shown no chance of nerve damage. The only man who admitted something was up that they could not even figure out was a physical therapist. Guessing I had a wheat allergy was a shot in the dark and luckily america has the proper labs to figure out my condition. if I had to get a lower grade blood testing showing in nothing, i would probably be in decades of pain. I resorted to giving my money to a lab and they found the problem. Such labs do no exist in Canada.

    oh really? Is America the only country that produces chemicals/pharmaceuticals?

    Certainly not only, but most.

    Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?

    That’s not true. America buys from American manufacturers as well (such as Chiron, which is American owned but made in great britain. Aventis, the only other flu vaccination company, is FRENCH, not canadian. Aventis has a factory in pennsylvania.

    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    Wait, you blame America for ripping you off, but fail to explain how. Here’s the truth. the majority of drugs and manufacturers are american. I explained how with price ceilings in america, we are all screwed. They make, develop, and sell the most drugs. That’s the truth.

    [quote[i don’t think so. Especially if i look at places north of us. Keep in mind too that nearly 90% of the population of Canada lives within 100 km of the US border - furthermore our most populated areas are well south of much of the US. I don’t see that this would contribute that much. [/quote]
    your populated areas a well NORTH of the US.

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    Wait, you insult me instead of admitting I proved you wrong, because canada does not have a greater minority or immigrant population. Then every time I bring up the very definition of “ad hominem” you guys seems to fall back in your “slumber” and stop replying.

    From dictionary.com: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.

    You just made fun of my personal use of ad hominem (“personal consideration”) rather than the logic or reason in my argument (all of those statistics). So you just performed the very thing I supposedly accuse people of “too much.” Because of this, I consider myself right and you wrong, because you fail to prove otherwise.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.

    all government controls on medicine.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    Not one orthopedist saw any sign of allergy or “nerve damage”. Nerve tests they had administered shown no chance of nerve damage. The only man who admitted something was up that they could not even figure out was a physical therapist. Guessing I had a wheat allergy was a shot in the dark and luckily america has the proper labs to figure out my condition. if I had to get a lower grade blood testing showing in nothing, i would probably be in decades of pain. I resorted to giving my money to a lab and they found the problem. Such labs do no exist in Canada.

    i’m sorry - how do you know that we do not have these laboratories?
    Also it seems increasingly to me that you should not have seen an orthopod at all.

    Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?

    That’s not true. America buys from American manufacturers as well (such as Chiron, which is American owned but made in great britain. Aventis, the only other flu vaccination company, is FRENCH, not canadian. Aventis has a factory in pennsylvania.

    it is true. i have the newspaper article in my recycling bin, and i referenced it in another thread. I think we supplied around 1.2 million doses of flu vaccine or so from a Canadian factory. You are wrong.

    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    Wait, you blame America for ripping you off, but fail to explain how. Here’s the truth. the majority of drugs and manufacturers are american. I explained how with price ceilings in america, we are all screwed. They make, develop, and sell the most drugs. That’s the truth.

    it was a general statement refering to your treatment of us with regards to softwood lumber, steal tarifs, beef, etc.
    And the majority of manufacturers are European.
    and i thought that you did not have price ceillings in America (we do have them in Canada)

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    Wait, you insult me instead of admitting I proved you wrong, because canada does not have a greater minority or immigrant population. Then every time I bring up the very definition of “ad hominem” you guys seems to fall back in your “slumber” and stop replying.[/quote[
    why did you just ignore my stats refuting yours? You didn’t prove me wrong, you just ignored the work i did disproving you.

    From dictionary.com: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.

    You just made fun of my personal use of ad hominem (“personal consideration”) rather than the logic or reason in my argument (all of those statistics). So you just performed the very thing I supposedly accuse people of “too much.” Because of this, I consider myself right and you wrong, because you fail to prove otherwise.

    “You are an idiot” - insult.
    “You are wrong because you are an idiot” - ad hominem.
    “You are an idiot because you are wrong” - possibly inappropriate observation.
    The thing is, you confuse “insult” with “ad hominem” and observations.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.

    all government controls on medicine.

    the problem is that there are so many industry controls on medicine.
    The main reason i do not wish to work in the US is because i do not wish to be subjected to the BS that HMO’s impose on their physicians.


  • i’m sorry - how do you know that we do not have these laboratories?
    Also it seems increasingly to me that you should not have seen an orthopod at all.

    The method was recently invented in the year 2000 and enterolab, based in texas, are the only guys that do it as far as I know…on earth.

    Furthermore, every single doctor reffered me to physical therapy and orthopedists. Most people don’t show gluten sensativity like I did/do. Therefore, I would have never recieved the help I needed.

    it is true. i have the newspaper article in my recycling bin, and i referenced it in another thread. I think we supplied around 1.2 million doses of flu vaccine or so from a Canadian factory. You are wrong.

    "The national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is working with Aventis Pasteur, the sole remaining manufacturer of flu vaccine for the United States, to ship Aventis’ remaining stocks to high-risk areas such as veterans’ hospitals, nursing homes, state health agencies and children’s vaccine programs.

    Dr. Julie Gerberding, CDC director, said on ABC’s “Good Morning America” that 20 million doses will soon be available for seniors.

    The shortage became apparent Oct. 5 with news that Chiron Corp.'s British vaccine plant had been shut down by health authorities. British health officials suspended the manufacturer’s license because of contamination.

    Because Chiron is one of only two flu vaccine makers to produce the drug for the United States, consumers were left with only half of the expected 100 million doses for this season. "
    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/1098187018136340.xml

    So much flu vaccinations come from these companies where I already listed where there manufacturing comes from, I do not see how canada plays a role. Furthermore, if canada did truly send 1.2 million doses (about 1% of the vaccinations), it is a rare occurence in one year during a massive shortage. don’t delude yourself.

    it was a general statement refering to your treatment of us with regards to softwood lumber, steal tarifs, beef, etc.

    We are talking medicine.

    And the majority of manufacturers are European.
    and i thought that you did not have price ceillings in America (we do have them in Canada)

    I don’t think so, I’m 99% confident we do not. Majority is a strong word. Several drug manufacturers are in america, the second largest on earth being pfizer. America, being one country, produces the most drugs for one country. however, for the most in a continent, i do not have the numbers.

    “You are an idiot” - insult.
    “You are wrong because you are an idiot” - ad hominem.
    “You are an idiot because you are wrong” - possibly inappropriate observation.
    The thing is, you confuse “insult” with “ad hominem” and observations.

    What you do not seem to get is that ad hominem is not a simple “you are stupid” argument. Implying anything personal about the writer and not the premises of his argument is an ad hominem. Furthermore, “disproving” someone’s premise with vague references to my character or how I must be inherently wrong without reason are ad hominems.

    Here is a philosophy link, don’t take my word for it: http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/adhominems.html

    Ad hominem means “attacking the person”. Here is a simple definition of this fallacy : “[t]he person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself” (Stephen’s Guide to Logical Fallacies).

    An ad hominem can attack evidence from the two sides of reality, which are :

    (1) interior (consciousness-driven)
    (2) exterior (outside of consciousness) - anything that is related to the person that has nothing to do with the argument

    The difference here is critical : (2) can be conclusively disproven, but (1) cannot, by itself, be disproven. This is because the interior side of reality cannot be perceived by anyone else then the person whose interior is in question. Basically, the only evidence possible is the person’s word. This usually makes (1) usually open to disbelief by other people, because we usually want to impose the same standards of justification on interior evidence that we use on exterior evidence. But that is virtually impossible, that is, not with our current technology.

    As explained on “argument from personal experience”, “[p]ersonal experience cannot be accepted as evidence of exterior entities, only interior ones”. But here the distinction is that someone attacking another about an interior fact does not try to provide evidence for exterior entities but rather tries to make an argument to attack the person’s intent or thought. Such an attack is impossible to support rationally since there is no way to disprove interior evidence in that respect.

    the problem is that there are so many industry controls on medicine.
    The main reason i do not wish to work in the US is because i do not wish to be subjected to the BS that HMO’s impose on their physicians.

    That is true. They are extremely regulated and so you have two inefficient bureaucracies (one corporate and one government) over one large government bureaucracy (as in canada). Ideally, you cut out all the middle men.


  • according to Bush- we are buying our flu vaccines from a canadian supplier as a backup for england


  • further to the original post, i think that Canada is going in the right direction . . .

    http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/11/01/marijuana_bill041101.html


  • Is it really the govs job to dictate how someone ruins their life?
    I dont like the stuff, but im leaning towards legalizing drugs.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I don’t think it is the responsibility of the US Gov to dictate the legality of substances. However, it might be the responsibility of the US State Governments.

  • '19 Moderator

    I agree, definately a States rights issue.


  • i disagree. if you make it legal in say, New York, than new jersey people will cross the border, load up on drugs, and either A)do them there, than return (bad) or B)bring them back into NJ (also bad)

    i think you need a uniform policy, one way or the other


  • @Janus1:

    i disagree. if you make it legal in say, New York, than new jersey people will cross the border, load up on drugs, and either A)do them there, than return (bad) or B)bring them back into NJ (also bad)

    i think you need a uniform policy, one way or the other

    Yes, that would be a potential problem. I will admit this would have to be a national decision.

  • '19 Moderator

    Well pot is close to being legalized in alaska right now so I guess Canada better watch out. 😮


  • :lol: :lol:

    I doubt it. They already have the best ganja in B.C. 😄


  • @dezrtfish:

    Well pot is close to being legalized in alaska right now so I guess Canada better watch out. 😮

    This is SOOOO low down on our list of concerns.
    Although it just might create some competition for local growers . . . that might hurt. We’ll have to build some tariffs into the system on Marijuana.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I forget which state, but one of the states last night had a marijuana legalization bill on their ballot and it passed. Though, it had to be perscribed by a practicing physician much like codiene and other “possibly” addictive substances.

    Thought it was relevant.


  • @Jennifer:

    I forget which state, but one of the states last night had a marijuana legalization bill on their ballot and it passed. Though, it had to be perscribed by a practicing physician much like codiene and other “possibly” addictive substances.

    Thought it was relevant.

    very relevant. AND controversial.
    Although i think that the state should not overly limit my prescribing rights (aside from “triplicate” forms, College-enforced guidelines), there is no evidence that marijuana works better or even as well as a couple of extra-strength tylenol for pain (there is evidence to the contrary, however).

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    No, but I’m sure you can agree that the same requirements for writing a perscription for penecillin or codiene should be applied to a perscription for medical marijuana.


  • @Jennifer:

    No, but I’m sure you can agree that the same requirements for writing a perscription for penecillin or codiene should be applied to a perscription for medical marijuana.

    actually, there are different prescribing guidelines i must follow depending on the drug.
    penicillin and codeine require a regular prescription. Narcotics (and its likely marijuana will also) require a triplicate prescription in order to ensure that double-doctoring is kept to a minimum etc.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Ah, did not know. Live and learn, eh? Okay, well the basic thought was that as long as the person’s under the care of a lisenced physician then I don’t see the harm in legallizing the substance. After all, we’ve discovered that some poisons, used properly, can actually heal. (Botox for instance or chemo.)

    What is curious to me is: who was the first moron to say “Yup, doc, go ahead and inject that poison into my face!”


  • @Jennifer:

    Okay, well the basic thought was that as long as the person’s under the care of a lisenced physician then I don’t see the harm in legallizing the substance. After all, we’ve discovered that some poisons, used properly, can actually heal. (Botox for instance or chemo.)

    Yes, actually they are researching the use of botox for women with breast cancer. I forget what is the actual benefit. Perhaps someone can fill me in.


  • @stuka:

    @Jennifer:

    Okay, well the basic thought was that as long as the person’s under the care of a lisenced physician then I don’t see the harm in legallizing the substance. After all, we’ve discovered that some poisons, used properly, can actually heal. (Botox for instance or chemo.)

    Yes, actually they are researching the use of botox for women with breast cancer. I forget what is the actual benefit. Perhaps someone can fill me in.

    FYI - botox costs $500 for one treatment here.

    i wonder if the benefit here is for cosmetic reasons as well (post-mastectomy).
    otherwise i do not know.

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