• @Lizardbaby:

    Look at China in it’s Opium war days. Not a pretty site. I would not want to enable that here. BTW, the Brits had their less than great moments Eh?

    why are none of us at work right now?

    regardless, i find it hard to believe an educated populace would all of the sudden become opium addicts. such dangerous drugs should be highly taxed and regulated until people become immune to the idea of being responsible with their own bodies.


  • “why are none of us at work right now?”
    I am. Just being lazy while I wait for some figures to put in a fund request. I go on vacation next week and am short timing.

    “regardless, i find it hard to believe an educated populace would all of the sudden become opium addicts.”

    I don’t say they will. They did not then really. The byproducts of drug use bug me the most. Once addicted people will do anything to get more. That means crime. People that become addicts loose mental capacity, so even if cured they become less valuable to society. Maybe even a strain on our healthcare system. Oh well. None of it is good. Not to mention drugs already affect those with the least ability to make good choices about their use. Kids. Legalizing them will just make it easier to get them in kids hands. Never in favor of something that can ruin a life as it’s just starting.


  • that’s why we don’t want a universal healthcare system. it increases costs and rewards those who live in an unhealthy manner.

    Alcohol is part of our society. when the illegalized it, we still had alcoholics. thus it is legal again and we are used to the problems it puts forward.

    Making drugs legal without doubt would lead to an explosion of drug use, because it is not socially accepted yet. However, once it is, I guarentee you the drug addicts would probably be the alcoholics/smoking peopulation of today. I do not find it coincidental that people with chemical vices are all generally smoker alcoholics.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    that’s why we don’t want a universal healthcare system. it increases costs and rewards those who live in an unhealthy manner.

    if the first part is true, then how come the US pays a higher percentage of its GDP (14%) without universal healthcare than Canada (8%)?
    Also i do not believe that the second part of your statement is true. For example our life expectancy is longer than yours.
    People will live in an unhealthy matter regardless of the nature of the healthcare available. No one says “i will risk lung cancer because i can get the system to pay for it”. At least none of the people i’ve seen and diagnosed with lung cancer.

    Making drugs legal without doubt would lead to an explosion of drug use, because it is not socially accepted yet. However, once it is, I guarentee you the drug addicts would probably be the alcoholics/smoking peopulation of today. I do not find it coincidental that people with chemical vices are all generally smoker alcoholics.

    what drugs?
    and in my society, smoking has become socially very unacceptible. Its popularity has not been this low in many decades.
    Also marijuana is not nearly as addictive as heroin, caffeine, and nicotine is.


  • you obviously did not get the second point, so i cannot respond to it. i said that if drugs are legal, that does nbot determine whether or not they become a societal plauge.

    if the first part is true, then how come the US pays a higher percentage of its GDP (14%) without universal healthcare than Canada (8%)?

    Canada simply does not have the specialists America has and the costs of seeing these people drives up costs all together. I highly doubt the universal healthcare in canada would have diagnosed my wheat allergy…i had to on my own accord send info to a texan lab. this lab would be out of business if there was universal healthcare unless it existed outside of it. if that is true, why have universal healthcare at all if it cannot cover all our health ailments?

    Also i do not believe that the second part of your statement is true. For example our life expectancy is longer than yours.

    Canada is colder and it is documented colder areas have greater life expectency. you also lack a relatively unhealthy immigrant population comparable to America’s. Furthermore, Americans crash their cars and shoot each other at higher rates, lowering the life expectancy.

    People will live in an unhealthy matter regardless of the nature of the healthcare available. No one says “i will risk lung cancer because i can get the system to pay for it”. At least none of the people i’ve seen and diagnosed with lung cancer.

    granted, but i don’t want to pay for it.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    you obviously did not get the second point, so i cannot respond to it. i said that if drugs are legal, that does nbot determine whether or not they become a societal plauge.

    fair enough.
    i was curious as to which “drugs” you were referring to. I’m not being silly either - i assumed you were not referring to prescription meds, caffeine, nicotine or alcohol, but what of non-prescription narcotics vs. marijuana vs. amphetamines vs. barbiturates etc.?
    Also it is not coincidental that those with chemical dependences also are smoker/alcoholics - many of these also have psychiatric illnesses.

    if the first part is true, then how come the US pays a higher percentage of its GDP (14%) without universal healthcare than Canada (8%)?

    Canada simply does not have the specialists America has and the costs of seeing these people drives up costs all together. I highly doubt the universal healthcare in canada would have diagnosed my wheat allergy…i had to on my own accord send info to a texan lab. this lab would be out of business if there was universal healthcare unless it existed outside of it. if that is true, why have universal healthcare at all if it cannot cover all our health ailments?

    actually we do have the speciallists that America has. We have an excellent medical education system that is second to no other country.
    And i am quite certain that it would take very little to diagnose a wheat allergy. Whether it is a celiac disorder or an IgE response to wheat, these are things that could readily be determined by a Canadian trained allergist at nearly any lab in the city. We also have the most advanced level 4 virus lab in the world in my home city. Granted some metabolic tests require a Toronto lab to help diagnose, however the paediatric metabolic speciallists are quite equipped to deal with these.
    No, what you pay for are HMOs which have to pay for advertising, additional layers of management, profit holders/dividend receivers, and astronomical litigation protection fees for doctors and hospitals, not to mention much higher prices for pharmaceuticals.

    Also i do not believe that the second part of your statement is true. For example our life expectancy is longer than yours.

    Canada is colder and it is documented colder areas have greater life expectency. you also lack a relatively unhealthy immigrant population comparable to America’s. Furthermore, Americans crash their cars and shoot each other at higher rates, lowering the life expectancy.

    what does a cold country have to do with a higher life expectancy? There is no correllate between living in a cold country and health. Just because northern European countries also have universal healthcare and have higher life expectancy rates does not have much to do with cold weather.
    As for our “relatively unhealthy immigrant population” - this is an ignorant statement. Our aboriginal population is quite unhealthy with a massive amount of diabetes, HIV, CVD, etc. Also Canada has a very high proportion of immigrants - possibly as high or higher than that of the US.

    People will live in an unhealthy matter regardless of the nature of the healthcare available. No one says “i will risk lung cancer because i can get the system to pay for it”. At least none of the people i’ve seen and diagnosed with lung cancer.

    granted, but i don’t want to pay for it.

    but you may have to. Not for anything that you have done, but simply because of bad luck. The thing is, as long as you have an insurance policy, you ARE paying for it, and you are paying more than in a country with universal healthcare.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    CC:

    Yes, it was the OBGYN that gave me the shot and sliced and diced. Maybe that’s not standard proceedure though?

    And, don’t they have some extensive waiting lists for cosemetic and life-saving surgeries in Canada? At least that’s what the press is always saying down here in the States. They (the press) claims that many Canadians flock over the boarder for surgery because it’s faster (more expensive) then it is in Canada.


  • @Jennifer:

    CC:

    Yes, it was the OBGYN that gave me the shot and sliced and diced. Maybe that’s not standard proceedure though?

    it can be. Usually an anaesthetist gives an analgesic by epidural, however an obgyn may also administer iv meds.
    i just had never heard of narcotics preventing episiotomy tears.

    And, don’t they have some extensive waiting lists for cosemetic and life-saving surgeries in Canada? At least that’s what the press is always saying down here in the States. They (the press) claims that many Canadians flock over the boarder for surgery because it’s faster (more expensive) then it is in Canada.

    there are long wait lists for certain orthopaedic and other surgeries in Canada. Cosmetic surgeries are paid outside of the public system as they are “cosmetic” and i have not heard of waiting lists for them.
    As for “life-saving” surgeries - our system is based on the idea of “triage”. People who “need” the operation sooner based on their disease and health will get the operation sooner. People who otherwise have to wait but can afford the operation earlier will go to the states for it.


  • If cigarettes are legal, I don’t see a problem with pot being legal.


  • actually we do have the speciallists that America has. We have an excellent medical education system that is second to no other country.

    the truth is that I would be bounced from orthopedist to orthopedist in canada and none would have sent me to an allergist. This is a fact. my wheat problem took its face in nerve damage, especially in my right elbow and now knee. both would have been considered orthpedic problems.

    So I would have to go through years of orthopedists and still have none send me to an allergist. furthermore, being that I am young and not showing the wheat allergy in an outward fashion, a stool test would be the only working version, not the tests with pricking, blood, and what not. The limited labs that do this particular testing are in America.

    you further bring up that there are long waiting lists. You get what you pay for.

    No, what you pay for are HMOs which have to pay for advertising, additional layers of management, profit holders/dividend receivers, and astronomical litigation protection fees for doctors and hospitals, not to mention much higher prices for pharmaceuticals.

    granted, government regulations are an impediment to good healthcare and they exist in america. that is a problem. ideally, government would not mess with healthcare at all.

    I do find it silly that you mention your cheaper prices on drugs because you have price ceilings. Those drugs are made in america and sold to canada cheaper than they sell it to americans. IF America would adopt price ceilings (and not allow the monopolization of drug developments like America) American drug companies would simply stop producing the drugs they usually would and advance would stop. This would lead to not only dramatic shortages in America, but then Canada would literally get a taste of its own medicine.

    Essentially, lacking better words for it, Canada is holding up American drug companies because there is no incentive NOT to make at least some profit in Canada. However, the moment they stop ripping off Americans, Canada would face collasal drug shortages.

    what does a cold country have to do with a higher life expectancy? There is no correllate between living in a cold country and health.

    You might eb right now come to think of it. In the past, warmer climates spawned diseases and plagues from insects, scewing the statistics. I’m not sure if that is relevant today.

    Just because northern European countries also have universal healthcare and have higher life expectancy rates does not have much to do with cold weather.
    As for our “relatively unhealthy immigrant population” - this is an ignorant statement. Our aboriginal population is quite unhealthy with a massive amount of diabetes, HIV, CVD, etc. Also Canada has a very high proportion of immigrants - possibly as high or higher than that of the US.

    Okay, let me clear up a few blatantly lies.

    1. America has a very unhealthy/alcoholic Native American population. it is a sad but true fact.
    2. 1% of America’s population is native American, 13% of it is black, and about 13% hispanic. All of these ethnicities on average have lower incomes than Asians and Whites. In America, 10% of its population is foreign born according to the 1990 census.

    While America had 9 million legal immigrants (it probably actually has been double), which would account for anywhere from 3 to 6 % of America’s population.
    http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/etoimm/tables/provs/immsh.cfm
    ^^^ Meanwhile in Canada, such immigrants are probably closer to 0.5% to 1.0% approximately.

    3. Canada’s population is approximately 6.3 percent non-white and asian (http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/5thedition/peopleandsociety/population/mcr4189?l=5&r=0&c=2).

    but you may have to. Not for anything that you have done, but simply because of bad luck. The thing is, as long as you have an insurance policy, you ARE paying for it, and you are paying more than in a country with universal healthcare.

    If America ridded itself of its medical regulations, the stranglehold of lawyers and insurance companies would die. Smokers pay more for their insurance anyway.


  • @Drumstix:

    If cigarettes are legal, I don’t see a problem with pot being legal.

    Good point.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Dunno if he gave me the drugs for the episiotomy, but he did do that first. Probably because he had to do it while I was sitting up?


  • ciggarrettes are only legal because you would have 50 million very pissed off and nicotine-deprived peopel on your hands if they were made illegal, and becuase too many people cant justify denying someone else the right to ruin themselves. i think cigarrettes should be illegal, so i dont think legalizing pot is a good idea based on that. plus, its not very helpful to say “since one bad thing is legal, another should be too”


  • @Jennifer:

    Dunno if he gave me the drugs for the episiotomy, but he did do that first. Probably because he had to do it while I was sitting up?

    Ok,
    chances are that an anaesthetist gave you an epidural. They give this while you are sitting up because it has a higher specific gravity than cerebrospinal fluid. It does not prevent vaginal tearing, but makes it much less painful.


  • @Janus1:

    ciggarrettes are only legal because you would have 50 million very pissed off and nicotine-deprived peopel on your hands if they were made illegal, and becuase too many people cant justify denying someone else the right to ruin themselves. i think cigarrettes should be illegal, so i dont think legalizing pot is a good idea based on that. plus, its not very helpful to say “since one bad thing is legal, another should be too”

    Well if that’s the case, Janus, don’t you think that alcohol gives the same right for people to ruin themselves as well? If so, wouldn’t it be reasonable to believe that you think alcohol should be illegal as well?
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??? :o

    :lol: :lol: :lol: Just kiddin, man.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    actually we do have the speciallists that America has. We have an excellent medical education system that is second to no other country.

    the truth is that I would be bounced from orthopedist to orthopedist in canada and none would have sent me to an allergist. This is a fact. my wheat problem took its face in nerve damage, especially in my right elbow and now knee. both would have been considered orthpedic problems.

    So I would have to go through years of orthopedists and still have none send me to an allergist. furthermore, being that I am young and not showing the wheat allergy in an outward fashion, a stool test would be the only working version, not the tests with pricking, blood, and what not. The limited labs that do this particular testing are in America.

    i’m sorry, but how do you know this? i’m not even an orthopod, so i’m not sure how you know this would go on here. I think that prior to sending you to an orthopod your family doc/EMO would want to be assured that it is an orthopaedic injury. This is something that you would more likely be seen by a rheumatologist for. These people would not bounce you around so much, as their tests would be far more likely to have them consider referring you to an allergist if the problem was not something that they would pick up themselves.

    No, what you pay for are HMOs which have to pay for advertising, additional layers of management, profit holders/dividend receivers, and astronomical litigation protection fees for doctors and hospitals, not to mention much higher prices for pharmaceuticals.

    granted, government regulations are an impediment to good healthcare and they exist in america. that is a problem. ideally, government would not mess with healthcare at all.

    I do find it silly that you mention your cheaper prices on drugs because you have price ceilings. Those drugs are made in america and sold to canada cheaper than they sell it to americans. IF America would adopt price ceilings (and not allow the monopolization of drug developments like America) American drug companies would simply stop producing the drugs they usually would and advance would stop. This would lead to not only dramatic shortages in America, but then Canada would literally get a taste of its own medicine.

    Essentially, lacking better words for it, Canada is holding up American drug companies because there is no incentive NOT to make at least some profit in Canada. However, the moment they stop ripping off Americans, Canada would face collasal drug shortages.

    oh really? Is America the only country that produces chemicals/pharmaceuticals? Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?
    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    what does a cold country have to do with a higher life expectancy? There is no correllate between living in a cold country and health.

    You might eb right now come to think of it. In the past, warmer climates spawned diseases and plagues from insects, scewing the statistics. I’m not sure if that is relevant today.

    i don’t think so. Especially if i look at places north of us. Keep in mind too that nearly 90% of the population of Canada lives within 100 km of the US border - furthermore our most populated areas are well south of much of the US. I don’t see that this would contribute that much.

    Just because northern European countries also have universal healthcare and have higher life expectancy rates does not have much to do with cold weather.
    As for our “relatively unhealthy immigrant population” - this is an ignorant statement. Our aboriginal population is quite unhealthy with a massive amount of diabetes, HIV, CVD, etc. Also Canada has a very high proportion of immigrants - possibly as high or higher than that of the US.

    Okay, let me clear up a few blatantly lies.

    1. America has a very unhealthy/alcoholic Native American population. it is a sad but true fact.
    2. 1% of America’s population is native American, 13% of it is black, and about 13% hispanic. All of these ethnicities on average have lower incomes than Asians and Whites. In America, 10% of its population is foreign born according to the 1990 census.

    While America had 9 million legal immigrants (it probably actually has been double), which would account for anywhere from 3 to 6 % of America’s population.
    http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/etoimm/tables/provs/immsh.cfm
    ^^^ Meanwhile in Canada, such immigrants are probably closer to 0.5% to 1.0% approximately.

    3. Canada’s population is approximately 6.3 percent non-white and asian (http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/5thedition/peopleandsociety/population/mcr4189?l=5&r=0&c=2).

    ahhh all the lies you’ve cleared up.

    1. yes - both countries have first nations people screwed over by British/American/Canadian gov’ts.
    2. the “stats can” table i checked suggests that the Canadian non-European/non-American immigrant population is closer to 10% of the Canadian population. You referenced a “1990’s” immigrant table. You don’t think it’s possible that we have immigrants from other decades as well? (i.e. the 80’s, the 2000’s, etc.?)
    3. our non-white and asian population is closer to 13.5% of the population (again the stats can website). This is a low estimate i think, given that nearly half of the population was not counted here as they declared themselves simply as “Canadian” thereby deflating the number of immigrants.

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    but you may have to. Not for anything that you have done, but simply because of bad luck. The thing is, as long as you have an insurance policy, you ARE paying for it, and you are paying more than in a country with universal healthcare.

    If America ridded itself of its medical regulations, the stranglehold of lawyers and insurance companies would die. Smokers pay more for their insurance anyway.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.


  • personnaly, i hate the whole lot, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes etc. but i know that the weak minded couldnt live without their addictions, the government has no business regulating how you ruin your life, so im gonna have to say yes, legalize it, just make a law against using it in public places, i dont wanna smell that when im eating breakfast.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Scientologists will tell you that it’s the case of their past lives wearing on them and their only escape is through illegal narcotics. At least, I think I have that right….I might be wrong about that, given I’m not a scientologist, but I’ve been researching them for personal knowledge. (I like to know what and who I’m talking about before I cry blasphemy and pagan. wink)


  • i’m sorry, but how do you know this? i’m not even an orthopod, so i’m not sure how you know this would go on here. I think that prior to sending you to an orthopod your family doc/EMO would want to be assured that it is an orthopaedic injury. This is something that you would more likely be seen by a rheumatologist for. These people would not bounce you around so much, as their tests would be far more likely to have them consider referring you to an allergist if the problem was not something that they would pick up themselves.

    Not one orthopedist saw any sign of allergy or “nerve damage”. Nerve tests they had administered shown no chance of nerve damage. The only man who admitted something was up that they could not even figure out was a physical therapist. Guessing I had a wheat allergy was a shot in the dark and luckily america has the proper labs to figure out my condition. if I had to get a lower grade blood testing showing in nothing, i would probably be in decades of pain. I resorted to giving my money to a lab and they found the problem. Such labs do no exist in Canada.

    oh really? Is America the only country that produces chemicals/pharmaceuticals?

    Certainly not only, but most.

    Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?

    That’s not true. America buys from American manufacturers as well (such as Chiron, which is American owned but made in great britain. Aventis, the only other flu vaccination company, is FRENCH, not canadian. Aventis has a factory in pennsylvania.

    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    Wait, you blame America for ripping you off, but fail to explain how. Here’s the truth. the majority of drugs and manufacturers are american. I explained how with price ceilings in america, we are all screwed. They make, develop, and sell the most drugs. That’s the truth.

    [quote[i don’t think so. Especially if i look at places north of us. Keep in mind too that nearly 90% of the population of Canada lives within 100 km of the US border - furthermore our most populated areas are well south of much of the US. I don’t see that this would contribute that much. [/quote]
    your populated areas a well NORTH of the US.

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    Wait, you insult me instead of admitting I proved you wrong, because canada does not have a greater minority or immigrant population. Then every time I bring up the very definition of “ad hominem” you guys seems to fall back in your “slumber” and stop replying.

    From dictionary.com: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.

    You just made fun of my personal use of ad hominem (“personal consideration”) rather than the logic or reason in my argument (all of those statistics). So you just performed the very thing I supposedly accuse people of “too much.” Because of this, I consider myself right and you wrong, because you fail to prove otherwise.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.

    all government controls on medicine.


  • @HortenFlyingWing:

    Not one orthopedist saw any sign of allergy or “nerve damage”. Nerve tests they had administered shown no chance of nerve damage. The only man who admitted something was up that they could not even figure out was a physical therapist. Guessing I had a wheat allergy was a shot in the dark and luckily america has the proper labs to figure out my condition. if I had to get a lower grade blood testing showing in nothing, i would probably be in decades of pain. I resorted to giving my money to a lab and they found the problem. Such labs do no exist in Canada.

    i’m sorry - how do you know that we do not have these laboratories?
    Also it seems increasingly to me that you should not have seen an orthopod at all.

    Why then, is the US purchasing the flu shot from Canadian manufacturers?

    That’s not true. America buys from American manufacturers as well (such as Chiron, which is American owned but made in great britain. Aventis, the only other flu vaccination company, is FRENCH, not canadian. Aventis has a factory in pennsylvania.

    it is true. i have the newspaper article in my recycling bin, and i referenced it in another thread. I think we supplied around 1.2 million doses of flu vaccine or so from a Canadian factory. You are wrong.

    As for us “ripping off Americans” - i’m not sure how that is happening any more than Americans are ripping off Canadians. Keep in mind too that the largest pharma companies in the world are European and they fuel most of the innovative research in the world. Also there are many pharma companies that produce medications in Canada. (Keep in mind that i worked in the pharma industry for a few years - i know the inside of it quite well).

    Wait, you blame America for ripping you off, but fail to explain how. Here’s the truth. the majority of drugs and manufacturers are american. I explained how with price ceilings in america, we are all screwed. They make, develop, and sell the most drugs. That’s the truth.

    it was a general statement refering to your treatment of us with regards to softwood lumber, steal tarifs, beef, etc.
    And the majority of manufacturers are European.
    and i thought that you did not have price ceillings in America (we do have them in Canada)

    all the lies i keep telling. And all so blatent.
    ad hominem ad hominem. Hey everyone - there has to be a ad hominem in here SOMEWHERE by the HFW definition of “someone said something that makes me unhappy therefore its an ad hominem”.

    Wait, you insult me instead of admitting I proved you wrong, because canada does not have a greater minority or immigrant population. Then every time I bring up the very definition of “ad hominem” you guys seems to fall back in your “slumber” and stop replying.[/quote[
    why did you just ignore my stats refuting yours? You didn’t prove me wrong, you just ignored the work i did disproving you.

    From dictionary.com: Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.

    You just made fun of my personal use of ad hominem (“personal consideration”) rather than the logic or reason in my argument (all of those statistics). So you just performed the very thing I supposedly accuse people of “too much.” Because of this, I consider myself right and you wrong, because you fail to prove otherwise.

    “You are an idiot” - insult.
    “You are wrong because you are an idiot” - ad hominem.
    “You are an idiot because you are wrong” - possibly inappropriate observation.
    The thing is, you confuse “insult” with “ad hominem” and observations.

    curious as to what you are referring to in terms of medical regulations. this term can refer to many things.

    all government controls on medicine.

    the problem is that there are so many industry controls on medicine.
    The main reason i do not wish to work in the US is because i do not wish to be subjected to the BS that HMO’s impose on their physicians.

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