Barring favorable rolls how can the axis win?

  • I play RR and one hit BB, and the general first turn russia move is a karelia stack, and I have crunched the numbers and a first round attack there is basically suicide, so I wait and build alot of inf., but as this front escalates Russia seems to always have the advantage. I understand that Africa can provide the much needed income, but in my games the US and Uk ertake that pretty quick. I understand that this game is slanted to the allies, but to my limited experience (30 games or so) if an both sides are stragtegically the same level then the allies will previal unless the dice kill the allies. So my question is two parts, 1 is how can Germany rally enough recourses to gain the advantage in the Eastern front, and second would be if you are playing an good allies player how do you hold africa? my navy gets killed pretty quick…… i have more general strategy questions but those two are bigggies for success for the axis.

    thnx alot

  • In my limited experience, Germany and Japan must be really aggressive. Germany must take as much of Africa as it can (and hold it vs. operation Torch) while keeping it’s front lines intact/trading them with the Russians. Meanwhile the Japanese typically must apply a lot of pressure on to the mainland very quickly - liquidating Britain and the US holdings in S.E. asia, and putting increasing pressure on Russia. It’s unfair, but i’ve seen Japan sack a hapless Russia a few times (more than Germany). Also if the pair are aggressive enough, the IPC victory comes quickly and Russia becomes impotent fairly early. You are right tho’. A good Ally will kill S.Eur transports pretty quickly - this puts a little pressure on the caucuses bridge to Africa. Also, I’ve never seen the UK retake Africa, although the U.S. can be a B***H in this regard. The key tho’, is keep the pressure on Russia constantly on all sides. kind of general info, and pretty elementary, but i hope it helps . . . .

  • Moderator

    Here is one option:

    Take out ALL allied ships on G1 and buy a second transport. This allows you to get 4 inf into Africa on G2 plus 2 inf from G1 before the allies can even land in Africa on UK2 or US2. You don’t need to hold all of Africa but you should be able to hold 6-8 IPC of it, making up for the loss of Fin and Ukr. Plus you might be able to pick off Syria and Persia and get a transport to the Red Sea before the allies can sink them both. In this case you probably need to fall back to EE and just hold there until Japan can approach Moscow to relieve pressure on Ger.
    Also don’t buy tanks-stick to men and an occasional ftr. Also if you were successful in taking out all allied ships on G1 you might be able to do it again on G2 (bomber from WE to US to take out US transports)-this will cost you all of your ftrs probably, but you will keep the US and UK out of Russia and Africa for another rd, then you only need to match Russia’s Inf on the Eastern front to keep the stalemate.
    No matter what Ger does you need Japan to put pressure on Russia and cause the Russians to divert troops. Japan is the key, more often then not they will be the ones who take Moscow not Germany.

  • I usually take out the fleets T1, but in doing so i tend to start losing my airforce, which i am sad to say is very constly to rebuild for germany, while i have no problem amassing large airforces with other countries, germany spends alot on guys. i suppose with a bid africa would be easier to take and hold, but the 2nd transport sounds like a solid idea, in that case do you hold the german battleship and original trans in original location? i usually take out the brit sub (or try to). I feel if I do this then im leaving the luftwaffa even more exposed …

  • If Rus stack Karelia and Germany don’t want to roll the dice sac-cing Kar, then best bet is EV. Which equate to quickly capture Africa and Asia, then, strategically (eg use the rule loophole where EV is calculated at the end of US turn), Ger try to capture the Eur-Asia to get the extra 6-9 IPC needed for EV.

    I’m still trying to crunch the number for this.

    Ukr & Fin are gone for Ger. Cau is out of reach. E Eur is an arm race between Rus & Ger. Basically, Ger need to build more Inf than Rus so E Eur can be held.

    So Ger is left ignoring Rus T1 and concentrating on UK.
    The 2 options are

    1. play it safe and build up in Africa (eg buy tran, non-combat 2 Inf, don’t attack Egypt), strafe all Brit navy.
    2. play it risky and invade both Iraq & Egypt–to capture the suez canal and swing the tran to the Red Sea.

    Been crunching the number for option 2 (in fact, posted a topic for that strat). Still don’t know the prob of Axis winning–I think it was down to the 20% or less number.

  • Moderator

    The second transport is definitely risky and there have been games where I’ve lost it before I get to use it so be warned
    But I try to take out the sub with a plane, but if you miss it can retreat and you’re in trouble but I’ll usually take that chance.
    If you do buy the transport the most important thing is to take out the allied Med fleet so I’ll send the sub and BB to take out the UK BB off Gib and sometimes (depends on how I feel) 2ftrs to take out the sub. Then the bomber to UK trans off Canada, and sub, trans, 3 ftrs to UK sea zone (reinforced by Russian ships) leaving the US trans.
    Assuming all goes well in the Med, you can do one of two things and it is really a judgement call: (If the sub survived your screwed)

    1. move your original trans off the coast of Gib with your BB and place the new one in SE, that guarentees you’ll have at least one for rd 2 and you’ll take some UK planes with you via your BB protection if they go after that one with their bomber.
      2)leave the trans and place the new one in SE sea zone. Now the only thing that can get to them is the UK bomber (this leaves the BB safe) and if they do go for it their bomber will be a sitting duck (or you might shoot it down) on rd 2 in either Afr or on Gib, plus your BB should still be alive and can be used for a possibel Rd 2 attack on UK with remaining ftrs.

    You could also leave the BB, trans where they are and use plane and sub for Gib and planes for sub leaving some allied ships in the Atlantic. But the extra income from Afr should pay for the extra men needed to to defend WE at least in the short term till Japan can get going.

  • The more I play, the more I see the Axis game is geared toward a mid-term victory, not short-term. The basis is that is Germany or Japan land grabs to much, there overextend their supply lines, making themselves particularly vulnerable to counterattack. This is no less apparent with Germany going full force in Eastern Europe only to neglect to fortify WE, and having it taken T4 or less.

    Now with that said, lets take a look at a 2 transport fleet. Now I agree fortifying Africa is a must, but 2 trns sounds risky. Here’s why:

    1. I spend 8 IPCs on the trn itself, that’s almost 3 inf not going to the EE or WE stack
    2. I must take other precautions as well. If I purchase a trns, I have to protect it with the rest of the fleet. This leads to a major loss of ATB as I could be attacking that pesky UK sub with my BB (leaving my ftr free to attack UK’s Navy) and landing troops into Egypt or Syria
    3. Let’s say I want to save ATB by instead attacking Gibraltar. Good side – those UK ftrs have nowhere left to land, making it impossible to attack that trns. Bad side – UK’s bomber can still hit my trn and land on Russian soil. That’s a 78% chance that the bomber will hit. Worst, that’s one less turn of inf going to Africa!
    4. Initial VATB. This means that since my original trn can’t land in Egypt, I risk not attacking Egypt T1. Let’s say I hit with the 1 inf, 1 ARM in Egypt vs the 1 inf, 1 ARM. That’s only a 55% chance of victory. Are you willing to make that risk? Are you willing loss 2 IPC from a G1 capture of Egypt or the evacuation of their army?
    5. Start up. With 2 trns, I better hope to use them to their fullest! That means another 6 IPCs a turn to fortify Africa until I know it’s safe (around G3) for sure. Only problem? Those 6 IPCs are urgently needed Europe, especially in the beginning of the game where Germany’s defensive capabilities is weakest (lost of ARM, not enough inf). Overall, that’s 12 IPCs going to protect Africa per turn. It’s actually costing me more to defend Africa than I get from it! You do keep UK down, however, UK is only a secondary threat. The main focus is Russian w/ USA pounding on your EE door.
  • Moderator

    Yes, you do have to worry about spending too much to hold Africa but a second transport allows Ger so many options that sometimes its worth the chance. I usually vary my German strategies too, so this isn’t something I do every game. Also I like to play Germany with no RR and one hit BB, so I’m a glutton for punishment. It is hard to win but I do love the challenge.
    My problem with taking Egypt on G1 is I’ve missed with my BB before and the UK sub sank both my ships+the Inf they were carrying, and many times I’ve lost my BB. I have a hard time trading BB for sub.

    So now I’m working on taking Egypt on G1 by bring a ftr down.

    I’m also working on an all out Russia strat where Germany leaves WE open on Rd1, and infact leave the allied atlantic fleet almost completely in tact. It looks suicidal but it might work. (I play all 5 countries on the CD-extremely helpful in finding new strats) The theory-UK and US can’t pass up a free six IPC so they put 4 inf there but since Ger bought 10 Inf those four are sitting ducks with minimal Ger loss and Germany continues to trade WE keeping the battles as small as possible and US, UK inf out of Kar. The key would be Ger take Kar on rd 1 at all costs and takes cauc on rd 2 or 3 while trading WE, not letting allied troops build up in Russia. The benefit is Ger has to place newly purchased units in the motherland anyway so it costs you nothing to place units there but you just can’t let the allies hold WE, and early in the game they shouldn’t be able to. Once you hold Kar and Cauc, you then concentrate on WE.
    This probably should’ve been a seperate topic-oh well.

  • I like to play as Japan and in my limited experience (a few games vs the computer), the best thing to do is to take India on turn one, espeically if the UK is stupid enough to put a complex on it. The US cant respond to that without opening its own territories to Japanese invasion. To invade India. useall the Indo-China infantry and planes along with the bomber from Japan. When the combat ends and india is secured, simply move all the forces from Kwangtung to Indo-China and from Manchruia to Kwangtung. Then bring in two infantry from Japan to Manchuria. Its important to buy 2 transports on the first turn in my opinion and it is important to knock out the American fleet at Peral Harbor. On turn 2, Japan uses the 2 new transports to invade Midway and Hawaii. Then Japan needs to place fighters on those island in order to knock out any ship that the USA tries to build on the Pacific. With that done, Japan simply has to build up a few subs for defence, just in case the USA decides to bring in invasion forces from the east. But Japan also needs to ferry troops over to Asia in order to secure the continet. I find that the biggest problem with Japan is the interior of Asia. Once Japanese forces thrust into the interior, it’s harder to get the necessary troops over to the front, which means Japan needs to spend more IPCs on complexes in order to properly defend against the enemy.

  • another problem with attacking egypt T1 is that if you miss the sub and it withdraws, it then has the rang to go and block the india sea zone and therefore almost guaranteeing UK to hold India T1 which guarantees if a complex is there it can begin pumping out troops. You should kill the sub, but if you don’t kill the sub it can lead to alot of problems in asia. esp since the sub cant reach if it is not given the extra withdraw move.

  • Normally I won’t go for India since there are so many better, and less heavily defended targets than India. However, if it has an IC, then it is imperative to capture it ASAP.

  • TG Moses VI - I agree with your previous post. If the Axis can weaken the UK enough in turns 1 to 4, the UK’s effectiveness is greatly reduced. NP can be down to nearly half (losing it’s African and Asian territories). After that, the Axis can can co-ordinate a mutual attack on Russia. The US needs to be kept at bay, which can be difficult but not impossible. If the Axis can disrupt the Allied effort in Europe long enough, Russia can fall…

  • An aggressive Japan and a defensive, but aggresive, Germany is the key. Germany must force Russia to build Infantry, not tanks. Japan must keep that number of Infantry low. Germany has to hold out long enough for Japan to take Russia.

  • Like the Marshal says, the other Allies are a threat too. A lot of time, the German will do everything it takes to try and capture Karelia and knock Russia out of the war as soon as possible. Now this can be done - the German factors that his superior economy will prevail against the weaker Russian economy feeling the heat from Japan. The only problem is that you forget to factor in UK and USA that can be major threats in T2, especially if their Navy isn’t completely wiped out on the first turn.

  • Good point TG, the #1 objective of both Germany and Japan should be to sink every ship possible. This will leave Russia isolated for a few turns, a critical few turns. This is the time for Germany to expand. Japan then cleans up any threats in mainland Asia, like an Indian factory, and procedes to pressure Russia.

  • Yeah, just don’t get Cocky! 😎

    Even with the Navy destroyed, the Allies can rebuild it with relative ease, by the end of T2 they should be up past full strength (the miracles of a good economy). Don’t do anything unreliable like trying to take Karelia or attacking every possible territory on J1 (believe me, I’ve seen this happen before) it’ll lead to your downfall and further prove the Axis advantage is in the mid-game. But Africa and East Russia is a sure must, even with one transport the Germans can have up to 8 inf, 1 ARM, and whatever Luftwaffe you chose at the end of G2 (looks like I really didn’t need that 2nd transport after all!), making it more than a match for any US Operation Torch (“combined” UK invasion is pointless).

  • Moderator

    Here is the key to Axis victory South Park style:

    Phase 1: Set up board
    Phase 2: ???
    Phase 3: Axis Win!!!

  • Just think of a bunch of ways to counter allied strategies. So whenever they make a move, you try to counter it.

  • The problem is that the strategies of the Axis revolve on a action-based game, not reactive. You can reactive play with Germany (ie countering the Russian stack, defending WE), but with Japan it’s a deathtrap.

  • if im playing japan, i often force the americans to come play with me. i take any non-essential forces (usually have some troops and transports to play with by j5 or 6) and go play in alaska or hawaii. ive even gone over and taken brazil (that was a wierd game, had a jap IC in brazil). your goal is not to actually keep anything, just threaten america. anything america sends at japan is stuff not being sent at the germans. and like mentioned earlier, have the J help G in africa. G takes something, J reinforces it.
    alot of folks dont have the axis powers helping eachother out much, each keeping to its own areas, but i think thats kinda weak. when playing the axis by myself, or with a certain good friend of mine, we usually wind up both powers in africa, and both in asia. this allows having reactive forces available, especially when it comes to pounding the poor brits.

  • Yeah, I would suggest taking Hawaii, Alaska, and maybe even WUSA (i’ve seen this happen). Disruption tactics are a must when dealing with USA in order to help in a Germans. What you want to do is frighten the USA in at least keeping a garrison in their home country. This gives Germans more time to prepare for a possible WE invasion. If USA doesn’t fall for the bait, then congrats, you now have a steady source of income. 🙂

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