• It’s possible make a kamikaze attack in China’s turn? The rules say the attack must be done at start of any allied combat phase

    Let’s say:

    • USA takes Philippines, say it has 2 dd, 1 bb at that sz
    • Japan makes kamikaze attacks on China’s turn (or UK’s turn for that matter)
    • Japan finishes USA’s fleet in Japan’s turn

    It’s possible that combo?


  • I’m pretty sure you’d make the attack on America’s turn. China has no naval units, so can’t trigger ability.


  • @bennyboyg:

    I’m pretty sure you’d make the attack on America’s turn. China has no naval units, so can’t trigger ability.

    That’s irrelevant, it’s Japan who makes the attack (not China or the allies), and they make the attack at start of combat phase of any allied power. USA’s boats could be at range of kamis in China’s turn (or ANZAC or UK … or soviet or France if this rule passes to global game)

    Unless this rule needs a correction of course


  • The guru (Krieghund) should enlighten us but here’s my take on this question (regarding kamikaze attacks on China’s move).

    The manual states that kamikazes are involve defending air units reacting to enemy movements, before any combat occurs. Thus, for kamikazes to take place it is necessary for an enemy ship to move into one of the 6 kamikaze SZs. If a country hasn’t moved any ships to the 6 kamikaze SZs during its combat move then no kamikazes can occur during that turn, even if there are already ships from other allied countries there.

    This reasoning makes me wonder about another question: what ships can be targetted during kamikaze attacks? Just the ones of the country who has moved or any hostile ship in one of those SZs?

    Since the combat move is done by the attacker it wouldn’t make sense for the defender (kamikaze) to target other ships than those of the attacking player (otherwise you’d be involving multinational units on an attack, something that is forbidden according to the rules). This is the same logic as friendly destroyers from other nations can’t cancel the abilities of enemy defending subs.

    Makes sense?


  • From my understanding the Kamikaze takes place on your opponents combat move which means if you want to hit US fleet then it has to be done on the US turn and you can only attack their fleet because it is their combat move and not UK or ANZAC.  I understand both of your speculations on this rule but I believe this is the right answer because it frankly makes the most sense without having to remember another little side note.


  • The common sense and what is written in the rules can be different, and there are many examples of this, not only in A&A, but in most of the late times games, board, PC or cards. A sad fact

    Now, the rules simply say “at beginning of an allied power combat moves phase”. No mention on wich power or if the defender and who’s turn is must be the same. It says nothing, so Japan has full freedom. They could send even one kami at USA’s turn, another at China’s turn, and the same for UK and ANZAC turns, all in the same round

    It’s not a teorical question, I have a mixed fleet in phi sz in a game and I want to know what to do. The important stuff is not China itself (Japan could kamikaze in UK’s turn that in fact is reduced in my game to Canada and nothing more, in fact is poorer than China)

    It’s pretty possible we get a clarification anyway, because this seems another example of poorly tested rules

  • Official Q&A

    @Hobbes:

    The guru (Krieghund) should enlighten us but here’s my take on this question (regarding kamikaze attacks on China’s move).

    The manual states that kamikazes are involve defending air units reacting to enemy movements, before any combat occurs. Thus, for kamikazes to take place it is necessary for an enemy ship to move into one of the 6 kamikaze SZs. If a country hasn’t moved any ships to the 6 kamikaze SZs during its combat move then no kamikazes can occur during that turn, even if there are already ships from other allied countries there.

    This reasoning makes me wonder about another question: what ships can be targetted during kamikaze attacks? Just the ones of the country who has moved or any hostile ship in one of those SZs?

    Since the combat move is done by the attacker it wouldn’t make sense for the defender (kamikaze) to target other ships than those of the attacking player (otherwise you’d be involving multinational units on an attack, something that is forbidden according to the rules). This is the same logic as friendly destroyers from other nations can’t cancel the abilities of enemy defending subs.

    Makes sense?

    Perfect sense.  Thanks, Hobbes.

    The rules clearly state in the paragraph above the kamikaze symbol that kamikaze attacks (and scrambling) are a defensive reaction.  As such, they may only be made against an attacking Allied power, which can only be the power that is currently taking its turn.


  • So just to clarify, say the U.K and the U.S. both already have ships in a kamikaze sz, and on the U.S’s turn they move more ships into that zone. Can Japan only target the ships that moved into that zone, or can they target any american ship in that zone, or can they target any ship in that zone (including the U.K.'s)?


  • @The:

    So just to clarify, say the U.K and the U.S. both already have ships in a kamikaze sz, and on the U.S’s turn they move more ships into that zone. Can Japan only target the ships that moved into that zone, or can they target any american ship in that zone, or can they target any ship in that zone (including the U.K.'s)?

    If the US ships on the SZ are participating in any kind of combat (amphibious assault and/or naval combat) then Japan can attack them with kamikazes at the beginning of the combat phase. Japan can’t attack the UK ships.


  • @Hobbes:

    If the US ships on the SZ are participating in any kind of combat (amphibious assault and/or naval combat) then Japan can attack them with kamikazes at the beginning of the combat phase. Japan can’t attack the UK ships.

    The way I see it, once the Japanese player decides to use a Kamikaze (which is considered to be a defending unit, see paragraph just before the Kamikaze Rule), this effectively results in a sea battle, even if the kamikaze were the only Japanese unit participating. All the US ships would participate in a sea battle, so all the US surface warships would be eligible targets.


  • @Krieghund:

    As such, they may only be made against an attacking Allied power, which can only be the power that is currently taking its turn.

    The italics are all we needed, now is clear. And has sense. Thanks, Krieg  🙂


  • quote author=moompix link=topic=17046.msg572108#msg572108 date=1266587822]
    @Hobbes:

    If the US ships on the SZ are participating in any kind of combat (amphibious assault and/or naval combat) then Japan can attack them with kamikazes at the beginning of the combat phase. Japan can’t attack the UK ships.

    The way I see it, once the Japanese player decides to use a Kamikaze (which is considered to be a defending unit, see paragraph just before the Kamikaze Rule), this effectively results in a sea battle, even if the kamikaze were the only Japanese unit participating. All the US ships would participate in a sea battle, so all the US surface warships would be eligible targets.

    To me the keywords on the paragraph you mentioned are: both actions [kamikaze and scramble] involve defending air units reacting to enemy movements. Ships that are already stationed on the kamikaze SZs from previous turns can’t be targeted unless there is any sort of combat movement made on that SZ.
    Same logic applies to scrambling: you can only scramble defending aircraft when there was a combat movement made by the attacker on the SZ of the island containing the airbase. If there are ships that begin the round on the SZ and there are no combat moves made in that SZ, then the planes can’t scramble.


  • Scrambling is a reaction to attacks which occur in the sea zone, including amphibious assaults, not combat movement into the sea zone.

    If you were to non-combat move a fleet with loaded transports into a sea zone containing an island, then wait until your next turn to launch the amphibious assault, the defender would still be able to scramble. This is still a reaction to movement because amphibious assaults are a combat move, but not a reaction to a combat move into the sea zone. My understanding is kamikazes would not be able to attack, if you made these same movements, unless the movement into the sea zone that makes kamikaze attacks possible does not have to be made in the same turn.


  • @moompix:

    Scrambling is a reaction to attacks which occur in the sea zone, including amphibious assaults, not combat movement into the sea zone.

    To me (and I suppose also to the rulebook) combat moves are attacks, or to be more precise attacks consist of both the combat move and the resolution of combat. The word ‘attack’ seems very imprecise in the rulebook since it is used in a variety of situations so it might be better to be careful on its use and meaning.

    If you were to non-combat move a fleet with loaded transports into a sea zone containing an island, then wait until your next turn to launch the amphibious assault, the defender would still be able to scramble. My understanding is kamikazes would not be able to attack, if you made these same movements, unless the movement into the sea zone that makes kamikaze attacks possible does not have to be made on the same turn.

    If the player makes any sort of combat move (including amphibious assaults) on that SZ then kamikazes should also be able to attack, just like scrambling is possible. The wording in both sections is different - on the kamikaze it says: “If an Allied player has moved ships into one of the SZs”, on scrambling it says: “can be scrambled to defend against attacks in the SZs”.
    An amphibious assault is a combat move made by ships (along with ground units and planes), whether it moved 1-3 spaces to land the troops or if it stayed on the same place and offloaded the troops. This because a combat move is defined as any movement that results in combat (with 1 exception: when sea units are running away from hostile SZs where they started the round to prevent combat).

    I have a question for Krieghund: if a warship is retreating from a hostile SZ to avoid combat and moves to a friendly SZ it is possible to launch kamikazes or scramble planes if the SZ is a kamikaze area or an island with an enemy airbase? I think yes, but I’d like to have confirmation.


  • @Hobbes:

    I have a question for Krieghund: if a warship is retreating from a hostile SZ to avoid combat and moves to a friendly SZ it is possible to launch kamikazes or scramble planes if the SZ is a kamikaze area or an island with an enemy airbase? I think yes, but I’d like to have confirmation.

    Your wording is a little confusing as “retreat” (to me) is a resolution after combat occurs.  You mean the initial combat move to get out of a hostile seazone (just placed units, etc), right?  And in that case, it’s a combat move, and if you moved to a seazone with an enemy island airbase or kamikaze symbol then yes, absolutely, there’s no reason the enemy couldn’t send their planes or activate kamis, just like any other combat move.

    However, if you actually RETREATED after a round of combat, then no, as it’s no longer a combat move, as combat is over and resolved, so the time for scrambling and kamis has passed.


  • @Hobbes:

    I have a question for Krieghund: if a warship is retreating from a hostile SZ to avoid combat and moves to a friendly SZ it is possible to launch kamikazes or scramble planes if the SZ is a kamikaze area or an island with an enemy airbase? I think yes, but I’d like to have confirmation.

    No, if your talking about the retreating that occurs in step 6 of the General Combat Sequence.

    Scrambling and Kamikaze attacks occur at the beginning of the conduct combat phase, retreating doesn’t result in combat being conducted in the newly entered sea zone.


  • Shouldn’t have used the word ‘retreat’ - I was refering to combat moves made from a hostile sea zone to escape from combat.


  • @Hobbes:

    Shouldn’t have used the word ‘retreat’ - I was refering to combat moves made from a hostile sea zone to escape from combat.

    In that case, it’s a combat move, so at the end of the combat move phase those planes and kaze’s can definately come out to play at the defenders discretion.

  • Official Q&A

    Again, both kamikaze attacks and scrambling are defensive reactions.  If there’s no attack, there’s no defense.  Combat moves done only to avoid combat do not trigger kamikaze attacks or scrambling.

    A good definition of “attack” would be “combat movement into a hostile space or declaration of intent for combat in any space”.


  • @Krieghund:

    Again, both kamikaze attacks and scrambling are defensive reactions.  If there’s no attack, there’s no defense.  Combat moves done only to avoid combat do not trigger kamikaze attacks or scrambling.

    A good definition of “attack” would be “combat movement into a hostile space or declaration of intent for combat in any space”.

    With Kamikazes having the added requirement of : “If the allied player has moved ships into one of the above sea zones, …” ?

    Which to me implies during this combat movement. Seems pointless to have this line otherwise, since you obviously couldn’t attack a ship that has never moved there.

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