• Hahaha, but you have to comprehend how lucky the original 13 States were to be blessed with such enlightened thinkers as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. George Washington could’ve easily become “King Washington” and our founding fathers could’ve been much more centered toward their own political and economic gain. 🙂 Perhaps if Russia had had such a fine set of rulers instead of Stalin?


  • @Yanny:

    Falk, watch the replies

    Ohm…. will you install a multi-reply button for me then, so that i don’t have to copy and paste everything into one :)… or could you get the others to post in my time zone, so that the appearance of me bunch-replying is washed out by others posting in between ;)…

    Or did i break any other of the rules (and i must say, some of them are pretty harsh… two consenting adults should be allowed to have a flame-war 😉 ) ?


  • I"ll have a flame-war with ya’ F_alk. After all, i can smell you from here. You need a bath.


  • When you hit reply, check the bottom of your screen. Theres a scrollbar down there, with every single post on the page included.


  • F_ALK, we have just the opposite proplem her, the lower 50% of the people pay no tax (and many still get “refunds” from our government). yet still get to vote. while the upper 10% pay most of the taxes- slanting downward amoungt the other 40%. so in your case I can see your point. “yes”- no vote for rich germans. I think everyone should be responsible for taxes, it makes the government more accountable. but by breaking up taxes the way they do here, they create a strong liberal (communist) voting base. more later lunch is over.


  • F_ALK, we have just the opposite proplem her, the lower 50% of the people pay no tax (and many still get “refunds” from our government).

    Lower 50% pay no tax? You are seriously misinformed here. The higher 10% (makes over 100,000 / year) pay about 30% more tax than those of a lower income. However, saying the lower 50% (55,000 or less per year) don’t pay taxes… come on.

    Refunds are based upon taxes payed.

    yet still get to vote.

    So the unemployed should not be allowed to vote…

    I think everyone should be responsible for taxes, it makes the government more accountable.

    The reason the Government is forced to tax the rich more is their own fault. A huge amount of the money we pay is wasted by the Government. Get rid of the waste, and stop going so far into debt, and we’d be able to charge a flat rate for taxes without going further into debt. Less Gov’t spending is the key.


  • @Yanny:

    A huge amount of the money we pay is wasted by the Government. Get rid of the waste, and stop going so far into debt

    So if we stop funding PBS, Planned Parenthood, new offices for
    ex(?)-KKK US Senators, eliminate the Dept. of Education (which hasn’t educated a single child) and the Dept. of Health and Human Services (which spends more on bureacracy than on H.&H.S.)[and hand all these programs back to the states, which would have more interest in solving their problems] we’d have a good start on reducing waste!

    @TG:

    …George Washington could’ve easily become “King Washington”…

    If I remember my history lessons… the Founding Fathers did offer the title of “King George.” Washington refused, recognizing that it would be a repetition of England’s ‘King’ which split off from France.
    He learned from history …unlike liberals who want to throw more money at problems. It didn’t solve the problems of FDR’s time… it just made new ones…and it didn’t solve the problems of LBJ’s time… it just made them worse and created new ones.

    Even today the Liberals are howling because BUSH has only allowed a 4% increase in the 2003 budget!

    We are a little off topic aren’t we?

    Are you gonna wipe the slate clean and have us start over?


  • On Iraq…
    Liberals, moderates (read ‘liberals’), and progressives (read ‘liberals’) have no grounds to stand on in this argument anymore!
    They said, “Get UN approval.”
    and President Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get Congressional approval.”(although he already had it)and Pres. Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get a coalition.”
    and Bush 43 did.
    Then they said, “Get evidence.”
    and Bush did.
    Then they said, “Show all of us the evidence.” (even though this would endanger informants and reveal US technology…something LIBERALS never asked of FDR [after Pearl Harbor] nor of William Jefferson Blythe Clinton [after he bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan or launched 400 cruise missles at Yugoslavia to distract us and Congress from the Lewinski hearings] and W said, “Up yours!”

    And for a final nail in the ANTI-AMERICA anti-war movement
    check the website printed in reverse below…

    moc.ecaeprofetabrutsam

    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEUCK!!!
    (I’m abiding by the rules.)


  • The reason the Government is forced to tax the rich more is their own fault. A huge amount of the money we pay is wasted by the Government. Get rid of the waste, and stop going so far into debt, and we’d be able to charge a flat rate for taxes without going further into debt. Less Gov’t spending is the key.

    Wow, I actually agree with Yanny. Good job. 😛

    On Iraq…
    Liberals, moderates (read ‘liberals’), and progressives (read ‘liberals’) have no grounds to stand on in this argument anymore!
    They said, “Get UN approval.”
    and President Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get Congressional approval.”(although he already had it)and Pres. Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get a coalition.”
    and Bush 43 did.
    Then they said, “Get evidence.”
    and Bush did.
    Then they said, “Show all of us the evidence.” (even though this would endanger informants and reveal US technology…something LIBERALS never asked of FDR [after Pearl Harbor] nor of William Jefferson Blythe Clinton [after he bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan or launched 400 cruise missles at Yugoslavia to distract us and Congress from the Lewinski hearings] and W said, “Up yours!”

    You’ve got a good point, the liberals are acting very hypocritical when it comes to the Iraq situation. 😞


  • Alexander Hamilton,one of the founding fathers, strongly believed the United States would never work. He believed Democracy was too weak a Government system for a new nation to succeed. Instead, he wanted to model the US Government almost as a mirror of the British Government. GW would be king, King George 1st. But Washington, a true believer in democracy, refused. He decided to pull the congress together and form a nation. He helped write the Constitution, one of the most powerful documents in modern history.

    I believe in the constitution. George Bush does not. He has destroyed whole parts of it in these last few years. That is why I don’t trust him when he says “Take my work for it”.


  • yanni, if you work and make under 32,000 a year you have no tax burden, unless you are single. the top ten percent of wage earners pay by far the lion’s share of taxes, how is this fair or their own fault?
    how can a single parent who pays no taxes all year get a refund for 5,000 dollars? yet she didn’t even pay anything into federal withholding??? proof - my mother in law. how is earned income credit fair? I have a child too, but because I pay my bills and work hard, I don’t qualify. so I pay tax, while she works at her minumum labor job, gets public assistance and a big fat refund of my tax money!
    and according to conservative interpritations of government statistics 50 % of americans earn 32,000 or less. at theast that’s what rush says. and I have read in my state of the industry magazines articles that put you in the top ten percent if you make as little as 80,000. but even at 100,000 per year you are not rich. why should you shoulder the burden of most of the taxes???
    I believe it’s to strengthen the liberals power base. poor unedjucated sloths, who druel over themselves all day whilst they watch shows like jerry springer. since they have no tax burden anyway- if another social program comes along that will benefit them- of course they’ll vote to raise my taxes. who wouldn’t. they don’t pay for it, yet they benefit from it. conversely I pay for these programs yet get no benefit from them, why should I pay- well, because they’ll put me in jail if I don’t.
    now before you argue with me on who pays what, go to sean hannity’s website. there is a very cool, yet simple illustration of the tax system. I think it’s called the tax story. I don’t know how to do the links, http://hannity.com/index.cfm/bay/content.ontheshow2.htm so before you start telling me how screwed up I am please read MY ACTUAL INFORMATION not my opinion. I at least do the same before arguing with you.


  • sorry about the misspellings, I just switched to msn, and haven’t figured out how to use their spell checked yet. and it seems that I never find the errors when I proof read. again I am sorry.


  • yanni, if you work and make under 32,000 a year you have no tax burden, unless you are single.

    Unless you have kids, not married. Marriage tax (without kids) just adds on another tax.

    he top ten percent of wage earners pay by far the lion’s share of taxes, how is this fair or their own fault?

    Did I say it was? It is the Government’s fault (by going into huge amounts of debt), which they tried to solve by raising taxes on the richer. They dug themselves into a hole, one which is almost impossible to get out of.

    You obviously have no idea where I stand on this issue. 2 or 3 pages back, I started a thread on it. Read it. Unless my radical reform is put into place, we can never reform our tax system.

    ow can a single parent who pays no taxes all year get a refund for 5,000 dollars?

    They don’t.

    while she works at her minumum labor job, gets public assistance and a big fat refund of my tax money!

    Your household income is combined. Everyone’s is, rich or poor.

    and according to conservative interpritations of government statistics 50 % of americans earn 32,000 or less.

    That is obviously counting Unemployed and housewives.

    I have read in my state of the industry magazines articles that put you in the top ten percent if you make as little as 80,000. but even at 100,000 per year you are not rich

    In many parts of the country you are. Go make 100,000 dollars a year in Iowa, thats a lot of money. I could buy a house for 100,000 out there, twice the size of my house in NJ, which is worth much more.

    why should you shoulder the burden of most of the taxes???

    Because there is no way to fix it unless we can overcome the Oil and Union lobbies and fix this country’s economy! Read my Social Security, Nuclear Energy, and Tax reform threads.

    I believe it’s to strengthen the liberals power base. poor unedjucated sloths, who druel over themselves all day whilst they watch shows like jerry springer. since they have no tax burden anyway- if another social program comes along that will benefit them- of course they’ll vote to raise my taxes.

    You really need to overcome generalizations. Overhere in NJ-NY, unemployment is reaching 10%. Thats a result of the economy, not the fault of the unemployed. The unemployment benefits which Bush proposed (which I am assuming your refering to), are directed toward these people/ The unemployment benefits have their own problems, but in today’s economy Jobs just aren’t there.

    I pay for these programs yet get no benefit from them, why should I pay- well, because they’ll put me in jail if I don’t.

    Unless say, you lost your job tomorrow.

    Guest, whom I am assuming is Alamien (IP tells no stories), what is your solution to the tax problem then? It seems your just complaining and not doing anything about it. We certainely cannot go to war with Iraq (100 billion dollars or more pricetag) and cut these taxes but so much. Your just complaining, you whine, yet have no solution.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=820

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=849


  • yeah that was me, and I’ve already told you what my solution was. eliminate social programs (like unemployment). I got laid off last year on a friday, the following monday I had a job. I could have set down on unemployment and let the government take care of me, but I didn’t. it’s a matter of personal responsibility. I read your thread on nuclear energy- and commented on it as well. in short- if we had a more efficeint way to collect that energy I would say it was worth the risk. but right now I’d compare nuclear power to:
    starting a bonfire in your back yard- then, after it has burned out, bringing the smoldering ashes into your home to heat it. we need to develope it far more before we depend on it.
    I’ll check out your other links as well, but remember I’m just left of being all the way to the right, so I may not agree. (have I ever??)
    you had said “the reason the government is forced to tax the rich is their own fault”- i thought you meant the rich. but eliminating entitlements would be a good start to turning this around.

    and my mother in law doesn’t live with me. she still lives at her father’s house with my wife’s younger illegitimate half sister. she makes min. wage, pays no tax and got a refund check for almost five thousand. she claims this was thanks to earned income credit, I cried foul.
    no I, like you, own my own home and try to legitamately support my wife and kid. I don’t like working for 65% of what I make. I don’t like the Idea that if I was taxed on what I brought home I could qualify (almost) as low income. meanwhile those at the high end of low income, pick up enough benefits to move passed me in the social class spectrum. (does that make any sense). I don’t know whether I’m mad or insanely jealous or both.
    how can you not be mad? I assume since you own a home you pay taxes. do you think paying someone for a year to “look” for work is a good Idea. personally I think that once you realized you were going to starve to death you’d find a job real quick. and it wouldn’t take a year.


  • at least we both agree in the trickle down theory. I was afraid to express that around all the anti reaganites. 😉 - i just read the thread


  • @Sum:

    On Iraq…
    Liberals, moderates (read ‘liberals’), and progressives (read ‘liberals’) have no grounds to stand on in this argument anymore!
    They said, “Get UN approval.”
    and President Bush did.

    if that was true, then Canada would be in there already

    Then they said, “Get Congressional approval.”(although he already had it)and Pres. Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get a coalition.”
    and Bush 43 did.

    that’s quite the coalition. Tony Blair without Great Britain, and a few 3rd world european countries

    Then they said, “Get evidence.”
    and Bush did.
    Then they said, “Show all of us the evidence.” (even though this would endanger informants and reveal US technology…something LIBERALS never asked of FDR [after Pearl Harbor] nor of William Jefferson Blythe Clinton [after he bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan or launched 400 cruise missles at Yugoslavia to distract us and Congress from the Lewinski hearings] and W said, “Up yours!”

    oh please. I could “get evidence” for anything i wanted to. I “have evidence” i slept with your: sister/wife/mom whatever. That doesn’t mean i really have any or that i’m going to show it to you. Just because GWB says he has evidence for something because the CIA says it has evidence for something does not make it true. I can’t believe you guys still believe your presidents.


  • @alamein:

    at least we both agree in the trickle down theory. I was afraid to express that around all the anti reaganites. 😉 - i just read the thread

    uggg
    dinosaurs.
    trickle down does not work. It gets hung up in profits, or higher salaries for MBA’s on boards of directors etc. Don’t get me wrong, i’m a capitalist, but i’m a realistic one.


  • Personally, I think Reagan screwed over many generations of Americans to come, unintentionally.

    yeah that was me, and I’ve already told you what my solution was. eliminate social programs (like unemployment).

    Social programs work, with the exception of Welfare and Social Security.

    I got laid off last year on a friday, the following monday I had a job. I could have set down on unemployment and let the government take care of me, but I didn’t. it’s a matter of personal responsibility.

    Glad to hear it. But let me give you an example:

    My neighbor was laid off 3 months ago. He works in a highly specialized field, communication layout networking. There are a total of zero positions in that field available on the East Coast. After 3 months of not working, he is forced to move to Kansas City to get a job which pays 2/3 of his last one. Had the Government not provided him with Unemployment, he’d be a lot worse off, since he has two boys and a hefty bit of debt after buying his home 3 years ago.

    ead your thread on nuclear energy- and commented on it as well. in short- if we had a more efficeint way to collect that energy I would say it was worth the risk. but right now I’d compare nuclear power to:
    starting a bonfire in your back yard- then, after it has burned out, bringing the smoldering ashes into your home to heat it. we need to develope it far more before we depend on it.

    There is no more efficient way of collecting energy than Nuclear. It is well developed, far more deaths have been caused by complications with petrolium in the last 10 years than in Nuclear Energy’s 50 year history.

    and my mother in law doesn’t live with me. she still lives at her father’s house with my wife’s younger illegitimate half sister. she makes min. wage, pays no tax and got a refund check for almost five thousand. she claims this was thanks to earned income credit, I cried foul.

    I am no accountant, but I do know big refund checks can come from Earned Income Credit. My father is getting a huge one come April, but that story is for another day.

    no I, like you, own my own home and try to legitamately support my wife and kid. I don’t like working for 65% of what I make. I don’t like the Idea that if I was taxed on what I brought home I could qualify (almost) as low income. meanwhile those at the high end of low income, pick up enough benefits to move passed me in the social class spectrum. (does that make any sense). I don’t know whether I’m mad or insanely jealous or both.

    Unlike me, you own a home and have a family. I’m 15 years old. But I can asssure you we’re all taxed, even I am. Made quite a bit of money last year, and quite a bit of it was taxed. Of course, its way below some of the numbers you’ve claimed were not taxed.

    how can you not be mad? I assume since you own a home you pay taxes. do you think paying someone for a year to “look” for work is a good Idea. personally I think that once you realized you were going to starve to death you’d find a job real quick. and it wouldn’t take a year.

    If you are looking for a higher quality job (and trust me, in my area, 50,000 / year isn’t enough to live on and own a home), it is to your disadvantage to get a lower tiered job. Most of my area who were laid off were at the management or above tier. Not easy in New Jersey/ NYC to find an open position in management, especially if your role is specialized.

    Heres a good example. My father was forced to lay off 7 people a month ago. 2 were Warehouse workers, at like 40,000 dollars a year. 5 were office workers, two making six figures. Those office workers aren’t going to find jobs in their fields (Sales of certain metals), unless they move to Germany or my Father re-hires them when the economy gets better.

    There is not a single career level job available in the area in that field. Unless they want to leave the country, completely reeducate themselves in a new career, or be forced to go into massive debt, they are stuck. This is the case with many many people.

    The common misperception of an unemployed person is a drunk who spends the day watching Spongebob. That may often be the case in good economic times, but not today. Unemployment can make life livable. Its temporary.


  • no wonder you didn’t own an atari- so I’m arguing with another kid.

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.
    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you. nothing says that if you want to do this for a living that someone will pay you to do it. that’s why they’re called starving artists. and if you have to relocate to work in the field you choose, then your choice is to relocate, learn a new skill, or move down the social ladder.
    the job I got laid off from was a government job. excellent benefits, easy laid back environment. when we started to get word that the layoffs were coming, many people freaked. most of my co-workers were old men 50+ and near retirement. almost no automotive shops pay salary, they have a performance based system called flat rate. these guys had never even seen a labscope, much less had any experience with fuel injection. they knew they couldn’t compete in a soft job market. who would want to hire an over the hill mechanic that will raise your health care premiums and only be half as productive?
    those guys were scared, and rightfully so, they are all still on unemployment as far as I know. but I was realistic, I kept doing the things that made me successful, and I walked away from that job and back to my old one without missing a beat. maybe someday someone will eat me, but until then it’s survival of the fittest- and rightfully so.

    I don’t remember the constitution saying anything about your right to a government safety net if life throws you a curve ball….


  • Ohm…. will you install a multi-reply button for me then, so that i don’t have to copy and paste everything into one … or could you get the others to post in my time zone, so that the appearance of me bunch-replying is washed out by others posting in between …

    Or did i break any other of the rules (and i must say, some of them are pretty harsh… two consenting adults should be allowed to have a flame-war ) ?

    It’s always the Germans who end up getting all the blame… :-? 😉

    If I remember my history lessons… the Founding Fathers did offer the title of “King George.” Washington refused, recognizing that it would be a repetition of England’s ‘King’ which split off from France.
    He learned from history …unlike liberals who want to throw more money at problems. It didn’t solve the problems of FDR’s time… it just made new ones…and it didn’t solve the problems of LBJ’s time… it just made them worse and created new ones.

    Yes, I remember this story too. 🙂


  • CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.


  • @Yanny:

    unless they move to Germany or my Father re-hires them when the economy gets better.

    it’s not bad over here…

    @alamein:

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.

    But should it be like that?

    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you.

    I agree and disagree. I agree that everyone is responsible for his/her life. But still, there are situations where that is “too much” for single human being. By what you say, any medical doctor who makes a mistake by accident (and say cripples his patient) …. should the doctor pay for the patient for all his/her life? What about the patient, no social security?
    What if you do an accidental mistake while repairing a car… do you have to stand for all teh consequences?
    If that is so, then “bosses” should not get paid more than workers, as they do not take up much more responsibilities, but leave them to the workers.

    that’s why they’re called starving artists.

    what if your talents are arts….something “unproductive”, that doesn’t make “a profit”… why then are sports people paid that much, or musicians, some movie actors? but why not writers, ballett dancers etc.?

    All the time you ignore one thing:
    culture
    it’s been culture that brought us to where we are. If we followed your rules, we still would be in a feudal age, or better: in the stone age, pre-babylonian etc.
    Culture doesn’t aim to make a profit, just as research doesn’t aim to make a profit…
    one of the worst developments of the recent times is that this is changed, that R&D and culture are expected to be profitable too…
    That is non-sense for me, that is the rule of the economy over mankind, and not the economy serving mankind.

    @yb:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    There is no Czechoslovakia anymore.
    And what about these “etc.”, the only countries coming to my mind are Australia and Denmark….

    And if you want Italy as an ally… that tells a lot: Berlusconi would fit into the scheme of “former friend, later enemy” of the US that we find with Bin Laden or SH… He is a non-democrat par excellence.
    For Britain… the EU would be much better of without parts the UK population, believe me. They are one of the roadblocks often enough for us europeans.
    And don’t forget the economic powerhourses of Bulgaria and Spain, and the freedom and equality loving Kuwaities…

    Can’t you see most of them lick your boots so they are later allowed to eat the crumbs of what you leave them?

    Somewhere i read: The US is an empire. Empires don’t have friends but vassals…
    And i do not want europe to be a vassal … if i had some influence in germany, i surely would use it to develop nuclear weapons of mass destruction and ICBM for germany, cut the number of soldiers, send most of the remaining into UN-service for free.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    there is no Czechoslovokia.
    There is Czech Republic and Slovokia.
    And it’s not Britain, it’s Tony Blair. The country does not support him. Spain, Bulgaria and Kuwait? please. These are politically handy, but having backing from the questionable leadership in these countries may be worse than no backing at all.


  • February 5, 2003

    You couldn’t put the pieces together even with the internet.

    You would not accept the evidence presented because ‘it could be faked.’

    US Secretary of State Colin Powell presented a fraction of the evidence to the UN Security Council (What a joke that is! :roll: ). You would not have time to look at and understand all the evidence that has been presented to other world leaders before the US lead coalition hits Iraq.


  • Yinny, just concur with my GW line. No need to waste additional space 🙂 .
    I think Lincoln and Clinton did a better job of shredding the US Constitution. I recommend you retake sophomore US history.

    cystic crapt, UN approval staring with 1441 (which was only part of what GWB wanted). If you want to be beat to death with all the Dem-Rep, US- UN, US-Frenchy, US-Duetch, US-PRC, US-Rosski… check the news for the last year and two weeks :roll: .

    cystic crypt, I think you left out Australia, New Zealand, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Bahrain, Russia, India, Afhganistan, Pakistan, Sudan,Germany(if I remember my recent history)…I could go on, but I think you see the error of your ways. Do not stoop to saying how inconsequential some of these countries are. They are all a part of the world community that sees the importance of acting NOW.
    Neville Chamberlain had the wisdom to acknowledge his mistake, but it was too late for much of Europe.

    People with more info than you’ll ever have access to are in charge.
    If you can trust Clinton :roll: you can trust anybody.

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