• no wonder you didn’t own an atari- so I’m arguing with another kid.

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.
    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you. nothing says that if you want to do this for a living that someone will pay you to do it. that’s why they’re called starving artists. and if you have to relocate to work in the field you choose, then your choice is to relocate, learn a new skill, or move down the social ladder.
    the job I got laid off from was a government job. excellent benefits, easy laid back environment. when we started to get word that the layoffs were coming, many people freaked. most of my co-workers were old men 50+ and near retirement. almost no automotive shops pay salary, they have a performance based system called flat rate. these guys had never even seen a labscope, much less had any experience with fuel injection. they knew they couldn’t compete in a soft job market. who would want to hire an over the hill mechanic that will raise your health care premiums and only be half as productive?
    those guys were scared, and rightfully so, they are all still on unemployment as far as I know. but I was realistic, I kept doing the things that made me successful, and I walked away from that job and back to my old one without missing a beat. maybe someday someone will eat me, but until then it’s survival of the fittest- and rightfully so.

    I don’t remember the constitution saying anything about your right to a government safety net if life throws you a curve ball….


  • Ohm…. will you install a multi-reply button for me then, so that i don’t have to copy and paste everything into one … or could you get the others to post in my time zone, so that the appearance of me bunch-replying is washed out by others posting in between …

    Or did i break any other of the rules (and i must say, some of them are pretty harsh… two consenting adults should be allowed to have a flame-war ) ?

    It’s always the Germans who end up getting all the blame… :-? :wink:

    If I remember my history lessons… the Founding Fathers did offer the title of “King George.” Washington refused, recognizing that it would be a repetition of England’s ‘King’ which split off from France.
    He learned from history …unlike liberals who want to throw more money at problems. It didn’t solve the problems of FDR’s time… it just made new ones…and it didn’t solve the problems of LBJ’s time… it just made them worse and created new ones.

    Yes, I remember this story too. :)


  • CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.


  • @Yanny:

    unless they move to Germany or my Father re-hires them when the economy gets better.

    it’s not bad over here…

    @alamein:

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.

    But should it be like that?

    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you.

    I agree and disagree. I agree that everyone is responsible for his/her life. But still, there are situations where that is “too much” for single human being. By what you say, any medical doctor who makes a mistake by accident (and say cripples his patient) …. should the doctor pay for the patient for all his/her life? What about the patient, no social security?
    What if you do an accidental mistake while repairing a car… do you have to stand for all teh consequences?
    If that is so, then “bosses” should not get paid more than workers, as they do not take up much more responsibilities, but leave them to the workers.

    that’s why they’re called starving artists.

    what if your talents are arts….something “unproductive”, that doesn’t make “a profit”… why then are sports people paid that much, or musicians, some movie actors? but why not writers, ballett dancers etc.?

    All the time you ignore one thing:
    culture
    it’s been culture that brought us to where we are. If we followed your rules, we still would be in a feudal age, or better: in the stone age, pre-babylonian etc.
    Culture doesn’t aim to make a profit, just as research doesn’t aim to make a profit…
    one of the worst developments of the recent times is that this is changed, that R&D and culture are expected to be profitable too…
    That is non-sense for me, that is the rule of the economy over mankind, and not the economy serving mankind.

    @yb:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    There is no Czechoslovakia anymore.
    And what about these “etc.”, the only countries coming to my mind are Australia and Denmark….

    And if you want Italy as an ally… that tells a lot: Berlusconi would fit into the scheme of “former friend, later enemy” of the US that we find with Bin Laden or SH… He is a non-democrat par excellence.
    For Britain… the EU would be much better of without parts the UK population, believe me. They are one of the roadblocks often enough for us europeans.
    And don’t forget the economic powerhourses of Bulgaria and Spain, and the freedom and equality loving Kuwaities…

    Can’t you see most of them lick your boots so they are later allowed to eat the crumbs of what you leave them?

    Somewhere i read: The US is an empire. Empires don’t have friends but vassals…
    And i do not want europe to be a vassal … if i had some influence in germany, i surely would use it to develop nuclear weapons of mass destruction and ICBM for germany, cut the number of soldiers, send most of the remaining into UN-service for free.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    there is no Czechoslovokia.
    There is Czech Republic and Slovokia.
    And it’s not Britain, it’s Tony Blair. The country does not support him. Spain, Bulgaria and Kuwait? please. These are politically handy, but having backing from the questionable leadership in these countries may be worse than no backing at all.


  • February 5, 2003

    You couldn’t put the pieces together even with the internet.

    You would not accept the evidence presented because ‘it could be faked.’

    US Secretary of State Colin Powell presented a fraction of the evidence to the UN Security Council (What a joke that is! :roll: ). You would not have time to look at and understand all the evidence that has been presented to other world leaders before the US lead coalition hits Iraq.


  • Yinny, just concur with my GW line. No need to waste additional space :) .
    I think Lincoln and Clinton did a better job of shredding the US Constitution. I recommend you retake sophomore US history.

    cystic crapt, UN approval staring with 1441 (which was only part of what GWB wanted). If you want to be beat to death with all the Dem-Rep, US- UN, US-Frenchy, US-Duetch, US-PRC, US-Rosski… check the news for the last year and two weeks :roll: .

    cystic crypt, I think you left out Australia, New Zealand, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Bahrain, Russia, India, Afhganistan, Pakistan, Sudan,Germany(if I remember my recent history)…I could go on, but I think you see the error of your ways. Do not stoop to saying how inconsequential some of these countries are. They are all a part of the world community that sees the importance of acting NOW.
    Neville Chamberlain had the wisdom to acknowledge his mistake, but it was too late for much of Europe.

    People with more info than you’ll ever have access to are in charge.
    If you can trust Clinton :roll: you can trust anybody.


  • OOPS!
    My mistake. I shoulda knowd Russia would waffle.
    Might as well take Germany off the aforementioned list, too.

    I stand by my previous post.
    I know that the number of countries will grow.

    France, Russia and Germany are not to be counted in the
    ‘honestly against the invasion’ category since
    they have recently supplied Iraq with military technology
    and have oil deals with the current regime.


  • You do know we fit under both those categories? According to Sean Hannity, as recently as October, we import 300,000 barrels of crude oil per day.


  • This was what i was waiting for:
    http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/05/powell_security030205

    Until this revelation, the US appeared to be one bully looking to beat up on another bully. In my mind, this is the straw that breaks the camels back. I am now in support of APPROPRIATE DIPLOMATIC and military action that would result in a regime change and elimination of WMD. The French diplomat’s approach appeals to me (“The use of force can only be a final recourse,” de Villepin said. “We must move on to a new stage and further strengthen the inspections.”) and he added a strict timetable. At this point i am willing to concede that we have what appears to be proof and not simply excuses to go to war for Bush’s oil interests and attempts to prop up the economy.
    Of course my problem with this is that Powell alledges that this evidence includes discussion to hide material prior to inspectors arrival - which would seem difficult with surprise inspections. At the same time, if this is merely a ruse concocted by the CIA in order to force Saddam’s hand, hopefully it will bring about a regime change without bloodshed.


  • Czech Repulic, whatever. THey are more valuable. They have troops in the field, helping us.

    Germany? Last time Germany sent troops into another country was when they invaded Russia.

    Honestly, why should we care what Germany thinks? They can’t help us, and their current government main tenament is anti-U.S. sentiment. France, you elected the Facist. WHy should we care about France? Why they are at it, why doesn’t France give the Charles De Gaulle back?


  • Germany? Last time Germany sent troops into another country was when they invaded Russia.

    Last I checked Germany wasn’t allowed to have a real military since the end of the cold war. Germany and France both have the diplomatic influence in Africa and Europe which we lack. You can’t solve every problem by dropping a bomb.

    Honestly, why should we care what Germany thinks? They can’t help us, and their current government main tenament is anti-U.S. sentiment. France, you elected the Facist. WHy should we care about France? Why they are at it, why doesn’t France give the Charles De Gaulle back?

    Should we give the terrorist cells broken in Paris and Berlin back then? Maybe cancel our trade agreements. France never elected a Facist.

    Why should we care about them? Why should they care about us? Because we’re members of the same world. France and Germany lead Europe. Europe, collectively, has the same weight as the United States in world affairs. And Europe is growing stronger every day, as the European Union succeeds. It is in our best interests to see a strong Europe, and to be friends with them.


  • F_ALK-should it be like that (the law of the jungle)- should you have the right to expect it not to be? if you carry yourself by this code, then you will never need the help of another individual. and if you expect the help when you fail, then eventually you become indifferent towards failure. failure is unacceptable. period…

    should a doctor be liable, or should I… yes, and we both are. if I break something, mis diagnose something, or by actions directly cause an accident then I personally, as well as the business I work for (in larger cases) are responsible. how much a doctor should have to pay is a topic of debate. many unworthy sloth’s feel their pain and suffering is worth millions, I feel it’s worth about the .32 cents it costs me for a 9mm round. but that’s another story.


  • Let’s not forget the fact that the overwhelming majority of Europe does support the United States proposed military action against Iraq. Just because France and Germany are thumbing thier liberal nose at us doesn’t mean they speak for Europe as a whole.

    Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s ass what France thinks about what we want to do. Have they so soon forgotten that it was “imperialist” America that liberated their country for them? :roll:

    Joke:

    Q.) Why did Euro-Disney stop launching off fireworks at 10:00 PM?
    (scroll down for answer)

    A.) Becuase the French military kept surrendering every night. :P


  • Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s a** what France thinks about what we want to do. Have they so soon forgotten that it was “imperialist” America that liberated their country for them?

    Have you forgotten that they won our revolution for us?


  • yanni me and falk have been going round and round with that IDEA. what you give france credit for, he critisizes us for doing the same with the contras. but instead of calling it winning the war for us, or them, WE"VE been calling it meddling.


  • @Yanny:

    Have you forgotten that they won our revolution for us?

    Yawn, I do believe the main reason we won is cuza some dumb General named Washington who never won a real battle. He just tied up a lotta rented Hessian troops and cost the Brits too much money(Pounds, that is.)

    :lol: DeviaS, Love dat joke!

    Yanny,France and Germany will lead Europe right into being Islamic nations …
    They are both already Islamic hostages.

    Cys, You cannot leave the Fifth Column so easily :evil: .

    Yawny, your East coast friend should not complain. Things are cheaper in KC (housing, insurance, etc…) and if he had been saving for that rainy day like his public school ed. and parents never taught him… he and his family woulda been fine.

    @Falk:

    …what if your talents are arts…something “unproductive”, that doesn’t make “a profit”… why then are sports people paid that much, or musicians, some movie actors? but why not writers, ballett dancers etc.? All the time you ignore one thing: culture

    I seem to recall a coupla good artists who earned little to nothing for their artwork. One of dem efen got fed unt chateaued by his friends. Didn’t they start a nightclub called the Renaissance?
    Now art is homoerotic photos, a crucifix in urine, a line up of soup cans, elephant dung on a painting of the Madonna. I call it Shock Disart. However, their are idiots out there with money (la nuovo rich[sp.?]) who have money to burn and wanna be patron of la arts.


  • @Yanny:

    France and Germany lead Europe. Europe, collectively, has the same weight as the United States in world affairs.

    Actually it doesn’t. And the reason isn’t culture or money, and only partly military. The reason is Europe is not one state and European Countries often don’t agree with each other

    Since the fall of Germany, Japan and the U.S.S.R., the world has been unipolar. Only the U.S. has the ability to truly project power. Whether it be dimplomatically, technology, military, economics, we can beat anyone anywhere at any game.

    The two nations which took a nose dive to make our great world unipolar were Russia and Japan. Russia’s military went into decline, and Japan’s econmomy is doing badly As I understand it, it is not growing. Ours is growing at 3%.

    NOw if you doubt me, take this scenario.

    Argentina and Peru invade CHile. COuld any power other than the U.S. do anything? Say Iran and Iraq form one nation and invade Syria, or Israel. Could any nation other than the U.S. do anything?

    These are extreme examples, but when we are not talking about brokering a peace between Ugandan rebels and the government, Europe often can’t cut it. We give as much money as Much of Europe combined, and we are giving what, one tenth as much of our economy.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    @Yanny:

    France and Germany lead Europe. Europe, collectively, has the same weight as the United States in world affairs.

    Actually it doesn’t. And the reason isn’t culture or money, and only partly military. The reason is Europe is not one state and European Countries often don’t agree with each other

    It doesn’t yet…. but if you keep on with this kind of politcs and diplomacy, i promise we will soon.

    Only the U.S. has the ability to truly project power. Whether it be dimplomatically, technology, military, economics, we can beat anyone anywhere at any game.

    That is so US……
    “projecting power” = “diplomacy”
    this equal sign is pretty much digging your own grave.
    And for the economics and techonolgy, we will see. Europe massively lacks consciousness of its own power. That is the mainy difference between Europe and the US.

    @Xi:

    Yanny,France and Germany will lead Europe right into being Islamic nations …
    They are both already Islamic hostages.

    So the enemy is not terrorism, or a dictator…

    The enemy is Islam.

    That’s i what i feared… and the seed for WW3 that will not look like a war at all.

    Now art is homoerotic photos, a crucifix in urine, a line up of soup cans, elephant dung on a painting of the Madonna. I call it Shock Disart. However, their are idiots out there with money (la nuovo rich[sp.?]) who have money to burn and wanna be patron of la arts.

    “Shock Disart”… is only one step away from “Disart” is only only one step away from “degenerate art”…

    That makes two very frightening points in one post.

    @D.S.:

    Let’s not forget the fact that the overwhelming majority of Europe does support the United States proposed military action against Iraq. Just because France and Germany are thumbing thier liberal nose at us doesn’t mean they speak for Europe as a whole.

    Overwhelming majority???
    As far as i can remember it’s more like 10 nations supporting the US to a degree.
    Well, probably the same kind of majority that voted BWB ;) :)…

    Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s a** what France thinks about what we want to do. Have they so soon forgotten that it was “imperialist” America that liberated their country for them?

    Then i give a rat’s a** about what the US thinks about us. Have they forgotten who von Steuben was, have they forgotten about all the Nazi collaborateurs who found a new warm home in the “land of the free”?

    @YB:

    Germany? Last time Germany sent troops into another country was when they invaded Russia.

    @Yanny:

    Last I checked Germany wasn’t allowed to have a real military since the end of the cold war. Germany and France both have the diplomatic influence in Africa and Europe which we lack. You can’t solve every problem by dropping a bomb.

    Hmmm, there is no Afghanistan and no Kosovo and Macedonia?
    I am glad that there are exceptions to the stereotypic US american that are shown by Xi and D:S….

    @YB:

    Honestly, why should we care what Germany thinks? They can’t help us, and their current government main tenament is anti-U.S. sentiment. France, you elected the Facist. WHy should we care about France? Why they are at it, why doesn’t France give the Charles De Gaulle back?

    @Yanny:

    Why should we care about them? Why should they care about us? Because we’re members of the same world. France and Germany lead Europe. Europe, collectively, has the same weight as the United States in world affairs. And Europe is growing stronger every day, as the European Union succeeds. It is in our best interests to see a strong Europe, and to be friends with them.

    YB, you fall to propaganda as fast as you proclaim that SH is “evil”. Our german government is “anti-US”? Well, if i can’t tell a friend that he is doing a stupid mistake, then it seems he is not my friend… true.
    And France nearly elected a fascist, the US on the other hand elected a not-too-smart-at-all hypocrit.
    Again, i agree with Yanny, but i think for Europe to have the degree of influence as the US … “we” need to be a bit more aware of ourselves and our strengths and weaknesses.

    @CC:

    Until this revelation, the US appeared to be one bully looking to beat up on another bully. In my mind, this is the straw that breaks the camels back.

    It hasn’t changed anything for me.

    I am now in support of APPROPRIATE DIPLOMATIC and military action that would result in a regime change and elimination of WMD. The French diplomat’s approach appeals to me (“The use of force can only be a final recourse,” de Villepin said. “We must move on to a new stage and further strengthen the inspections.”) and he added a strict timetable.

    That’s something i supported before powells speech.
    But i don’t see that Powell presented anything new: the mobile labs were known, and Iraq says they are for psticides and agriclutre, contrary to the US claims.
    The telephone calls…… well, some hint that ther eis something hidden (that’s why the inspecotrs are there), others say completely nothing, or better: could be used to prove anything depending on the context and “atmosphere” they are presented in.

    At this point i am willing to concede that we have what appears to be proof and not simply excuses to go to war for Bush’s oil interests and attempts to prop up the economy.

    “Appears to be proof”…… is not proof. I will wait and see what the councils discussion will lead to.

    Two of Xi again

    I think you left out Australia, New Zealand, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Bahrain, Russia, India, Afhganistan, Pakistan, Sudan,Germany(if I remember my recent history)…I could go on, but I think you see the error of your ways. Do not stoop to saying how inconsequential some of these countries are. They are all a part of the world community that sees the importance of acting NOW.

    France, Russia and Germany are not to be counted in the
    ‘honestly against the invasion’ category since
    they have recently supplied Iraq with military technology
    and have oil deals with the current regime.

    Turkey is not really on your line. Iran??? India and Paksitan wanting the same??? Pakistan ???
    And well hell yeah: the government of Kabulistan of course will do anything the US says, you’ve brought them into power in that area not too long ago… but do you know who holds the power in the rest of Afghanistan??
    For supplying Iraq… by that logic you must inlcude the US there.

    Do read the news btw? Have a look what happened for the first time in the 102 years of Australia… Seems like the support from there is only from a chosen few and not as you think.

    Xi: you show a devastating non-knowledge. Plus a mindset that would let you do well in many non-democratic countries…

    A last word by myself:
    The Nazis had “proof” that the communists burned the Reichstag. They had “scientific evidence” that aryans were better than others, and that slavic people were less. They “a people” out of “a faith”, and declared them enemies of mankind, again with “scientific proof”… proving that the ratio of fallen jew-german soldiers was lower than the ratio of german-jew citizens in the total population… we know where that can lead to, and if i look at Xi, it has gone too far already!

    I am highly suspicious to these kinds of proof, and it matters only a little that it’s presented by Colin Powell (who i highly respect, but who said himself that it is “not so easy to understand” and it “took some time” for him…).
    I am by no means supporting SH, but i am not supporting GWB, who does much more damage than he wants to prevent.
    And why is the term “conspiration theory” reserved for private persons only? Why not for governments as well (the Third Reich started the biggest conspiration theory ever, the Iraq is just a very small thing compared to that)?


  • Yawn, I do believe the main reason we won is cuza some dumb General named Washington who never won a real battle. He just tied up a lotta rented Hessian troops and cost the Brits too much money(Pounds, that is.)

    Xi, wouldn’t mind if you logged in :)

    George Washington did a great job as Commander in Chief of American forces. He was a true leader, who turned down being King in favor of trying to create the first real Democracy the world had seen in 2000 years.

    However, the British were not just fighting the war in America. France (and later, Spain) attacked Britain proper, almost forcing a World War upon Britain. The French supplied the only real money our nation had at the time, and they were our only source for replenishment of arms and ammo during the war. Not to mention the French warfleet and army which trapped Cornwallis at Yorktown, winning the war.

    No, we’d be a British colony without the French.

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