• @Sum:

    On Iraq…
    Liberals, moderates (read ‘liberals’), and progressives (read ‘liberals’) have no grounds to stand on in this argument anymore!
    They said, “Get UN approval.”
    and President Bush did.

    if that was true, then Canada would be in there already

    Then they said, “Get Congressional approval.”(although he already had it)and Pres. Bush did.
    Then they said, “Get a coalition.”
    and Bush 43 did.

    that’s quite the coalition. Tony Blair without Great Britain, and a few 3rd world european countries

    Then they said, “Get evidence.”
    and Bush did.
    Then they said, “Show all of us the evidence.” (even though this would endanger informants and reveal US technology…something LIBERALS never asked of FDR [after Pearl Harbor] nor of William Jefferson Blythe Clinton [after he bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan or launched 400 cruise missles at Yugoslavia to distract us and Congress from the Lewinski hearings] and W said, “Up yours!”

    oh please. I could “get evidence” for anything i wanted to. I “have evidence” i slept with your: sister/wife/mom whatever. That doesn’t mean i really have any or that i’m going to show it to you. Just because GWB says he has evidence for something because the CIA says it has evidence for something does not make it true. I can’t believe you guys still believe your presidents.


  • @alamein:

    at least we both agree in the trickle down theory. I was afraid to express that around all the anti reaganites. :wink: - i just read the thread

    uggg
    dinosaurs.
    trickle down does not work. It gets hung up in profits, or higher salaries for MBA’s on boards of directors etc. Don’t get me wrong, i’m a capitalist, but i’m a realistic one.


  • Personally, I think Reagan screwed over many generations of Americans to come, unintentionally.

    yeah that was me, and I’ve already told you what my solution was. eliminate social programs (like unemployment).

    Social programs work, with the exception of Welfare and Social Security.

    I got laid off last year on a friday, the following monday I had a job. I could have set down on unemployment and let the government take care of me, but I didn’t. it’s a matter of personal responsibility.

    Glad to hear it. But let me give you an example:

    My neighbor was laid off 3 months ago. He works in a highly specialized field, communication layout networking. There are a total of zero positions in that field available on the East Coast. After 3 months of not working, he is forced to move to Kansas City to get a job which pays 2/3 of his last one. Had the Government not provided him with Unemployment, he’d be a lot worse off, since he has two boys and a hefty bit of debt after buying his home 3 years ago.

    ead your thread on nuclear energy- and commented on it as well. in short- if we had a more efficeint way to collect that energy I would say it was worth the risk. but right now I’d compare nuclear power to:
    starting a bonfire in your back yard- then, after it has burned out, bringing the smoldering ashes into your home to heat it. we need to develope it far more before we depend on it.

    There is no more efficient way of collecting energy than Nuclear. It is well developed, far more deaths have been caused by complications with petrolium in the last 10 years than in Nuclear Energy’s 50 year history.

    and my mother in law doesn’t live with me. she still lives at her father’s house with my wife’s younger illegitimate half sister. she makes min. wage, pays no tax and got a refund check for almost five thousand. she claims this was thanks to earned income credit, I cried foul.

    I am no accountant, but I do know big refund checks can come from Earned Income Credit. My father is getting a huge one come April, but that story is for another day.

    no I, like you, own my own home and try to legitamately support my wife and kid. I don’t like working for 65% of what I make. I don’t like the Idea that if I was taxed on what I brought home I could qualify (almost) as low income. meanwhile those at the high end of low income, pick up enough benefits to move passed me in the social class spectrum. (does that make any sense). I don’t know whether I’m mad or insanely jealous or both.

    Unlike me, you own a home and have a family. I’m 15 years old. But I can asssure you we’re all taxed, even I am. Made quite a bit of money last year, and quite a bit of it was taxed. Of course, its way below some of the numbers you’ve claimed were not taxed.

    how can you not be mad? I assume since you own a home you pay taxes. do you think paying someone for a year to “look” for work is a good Idea. personally I think that once you realized you were going to starve to death you’d find a job real quick. and it wouldn’t take a year.

    If you are looking for a higher quality job (and trust me, in my area, 50,000 / year isn’t enough to live on and own a home), it is to your disadvantage to get a lower tiered job. Most of my area who were laid off were at the management or above tier. Not easy in New Jersey/ NYC to find an open position in management, especially if your role is specialized.

    Heres a good example. My father was forced to lay off 7 people a month ago. 2 were Warehouse workers, at like 40,000 dollars a year. 5 were office workers, two making six figures. Those office workers aren’t going to find jobs in their fields (Sales of certain metals), unless they move to Germany or my Father re-hires them when the economy gets better.

    There is not a single career level job available in the area in that field. Unless they want to leave the country, completely reeducate themselves in a new career, or be forced to go into massive debt, they are stuck. This is the case with many many people.

    The common misperception of an unemployed person is a drunk who spends the day watching Spongebob. That may often be the case in good economic times, but not today. Unemployment can make life livable. Its temporary.


  • no wonder you didn’t own an atari- so I’m arguing with another kid.

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.
    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you. nothing says that if you want to do this for a living that someone will pay you to do it. that’s why they’re called starving artists. and if you have to relocate to work in the field you choose, then your choice is to relocate, learn a new skill, or move down the social ladder.
    the job I got laid off from was a government job. excellent benefits, easy laid back environment. when we started to get word that the layoffs were coming, many people freaked. most of my co-workers were old men 50+ and near retirement. almost no automotive shops pay salary, they have a performance based system called flat rate. these guys had never even seen a labscope, much less had any experience with fuel injection. they knew they couldn’t compete in a soft job market. who would want to hire an over the hill mechanic that will raise your health care premiums and only be half as productive?
    those guys were scared, and rightfully so, they are all still on unemployment as far as I know. but I was realistic, I kept doing the things that made me successful, and I walked away from that job and back to my old one without missing a beat. maybe someday someone will eat me, but until then it’s survival of the fittest- and rightfully so.

    I don’t remember the constitution saying anything about your right to a government safety net if life throws you a curve ball….


  • Ohm…. will you install a multi-reply button for me then, so that i don’t have to copy and paste everything into one … or could you get the others to post in my time zone, so that the appearance of me bunch-replying is washed out by others posting in between …

    Or did i break any other of the rules (and i must say, some of them are pretty harsh… two consenting adults should be allowed to have a flame-war ) ?

    It’s always the Germans who end up getting all the blame… :-? :wink:

    If I remember my history lessons… the Founding Fathers did offer the title of “King George.” Washington refused, recognizing that it would be a repetition of England’s ‘King’ which split off from France.
    He learned from history …unlike liberals who want to throw more money at problems. It didn’t solve the problems of FDR’s time… it just made new ones…and it didn’t solve the problems of LBJ’s time… it just made them worse and created new ones.

    Yes, I remember this story too. :)


  • CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.


  • @Yanny:

    unless they move to Germany or my Father re-hires them when the economy gets better.

    it’s not bad over here…

    @alamein:

    ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.

    But should it be like that?

    there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you.

    I agree and disagree. I agree that everyone is responsible for his/her life. But still, there are situations where that is “too much” for single human being. By what you say, any medical doctor who makes a mistake by accident (and say cripples his patient) …. should the doctor pay for the patient for all his/her life? What about the patient, no social security?
    What if you do an accidental mistake while repairing a car… do you have to stand for all teh consequences?
    If that is so, then “bosses” should not get paid more than workers, as they do not take up much more responsibilities, but leave them to the workers.

    that’s why they’re called starving artists.

    what if your talents are arts….something “unproductive”, that doesn’t make “a profit”… why then are sports people paid that much, or musicians, some movie actors? but why not writers, ballett dancers etc.?

    All the time you ignore one thing:
    culture
    it’s been culture that brought us to where we are. If we followed your rules, we still would be in a feudal age, or better: in the stone age, pre-babylonian etc.
    Culture doesn’t aim to make a profit, just as research doesn’t aim to make a profit…
    one of the worst developments of the recent times is that this is changed, that R&D and culture are expected to be profitable too…
    That is non-sense for me, that is the rule of the economy over mankind, and not the economy serving mankind.

    @yb:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    There is no Czechoslovakia anymore.
    And what about these “etc.”, the only countries coming to my mind are Australia and Denmark….

    And if you want Italy as an ally… that tells a lot: Berlusconi would fit into the scheme of “former friend, later enemy” of the US that we find with Bin Laden or SH… He is a non-democrat par excellence.
    For Britain… the EU would be much better of without parts the UK population, believe me. They are one of the roadblocks often enough for us europeans.
    And don’t forget the economic powerhourses of Bulgaria and Spain, and the freedom and equality loving Kuwaities…

    Can’t you see most of them lick your boots so they are later allowed to eat the crumbs of what you leave them?

    Somewhere i read: The US is an empire. Empires don’t have friends but vassals…
    And i do not want europe to be a vassal … if i had some influence in germany, i surely would use it to develop nuclear weapons of mass destruction and ICBM for germany, cut the number of soldiers, send most of the remaining into UN-service for free.


  • @yourbuttocks:

    CC, Czechoslovokia is a more valuable ally than Germany.

    Why do we need France and Germany when we have Britian, Italy, Spain, Bulgaria, Kuwait, etc.

    there is no Czechoslovokia.
    There is Czech Republic and Slovokia.
    And it’s not Britain, it’s Tony Blair. The country does not support him. Spain, Bulgaria and Kuwait? please. These are politically handy, but having backing from the questionable leadership in these countries may be worse than no backing at all.


  • February 5, 2003

    You couldn’t put the pieces together even with the internet.

    You would not accept the evidence presented because ‘it could be faked.’

    US Secretary of State Colin Powell presented a fraction of the evidence to the UN Security Council (What a joke that is! :roll: ). You would not have time to look at and understand all the evidence that has been presented to other world leaders before the US lead coalition hits Iraq.


  • Yinny, just concur with my GW line. No need to waste additional space :) .
    I think Lincoln and Clinton did a better job of shredding the US Constitution. I recommend you retake sophomore US history.

    cystic crapt, UN approval staring with 1441 (which was only part of what GWB wanted). If you want to be beat to death with all the Dem-Rep, US- UN, US-Frenchy, US-Duetch, US-PRC, US-Rosski… check the news for the last year and two weeks :roll: .

    cystic crypt, I think you left out Australia, New Zealand, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Bahrain, Russia, India, Afhganistan, Pakistan, Sudan,Germany(if I remember my recent history)…I could go on, but I think you see the error of your ways. Do not stoop to saying how inconsequential some of these countries are. They are all a part of the world community that sees the importance of acting NOW.
    Neville Chamberlain had the wisdom to acknowledge his mistake, but it was too late for much of Europe.

    People with more info than you’ll ever have access to are in charge.
    If you can trust Clinton :roll: you can trust anybody.


  • OOPS!
    My mistake. I shoulda knowd Russia would waffle.
    Might as well take Germany off the aforementioned list, too.

    I stand by my previous post.
    I know that the number of countries will grow.

    France, Russia and Germany are not to be counted in the
    ‘honestly against the invasion’ category since
    they have recently supplied Iraq with military technology
    and have oil deals with the current regime.


  • You do know we fit under both those categories? According to Sean Hannity, as recently as October, we import 300,000 barrels of crude oil per day.


  • This was what i was waiting for:
    http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/05/powell_security030205

    Until this revelation, the US appeared to be one bully looking to beat up on another bully. In my mind, this is the straw that breaks the camels back. I am now in support of APPROPRIATE DIPLOMATIC and military action that would result in a regime change and elimination of WMD. The French diplomat’s approach appeals to me (“The use of force can only be a final recourse,” de Villepin said. “We must move on to a new stage and further strengthen the inspections.”) and he added a strict timetable. At this point i am willing to concede that we have what appears to be proof and not simply excuses to go to war for Bush’s oil interests and attempts to prop up the economy.
    Of course my problem with this is that Powell alledges that this evidence includes discussion to hide material prior to inspectors arrival - which would seem difficult with surprise inspections. At the same time, if this is merely a ruse concocted by the CIA in order to force Saddam’s hand, hopefully it will bring about a regime change without bloodshed.


  • Czech Repulic, whatever. THey are more valuable. They have troops in the field, helping us.

    Germany? Last time Germany sent troops into another country was when they invaded Russia.

    Honestly, why should we care what Germany thinks? They can’t help us, and their current government main tenament is anti-U.S. sentiment. France, you elected the Facist. WHy should we care about France? Why they are at it, why doesn’t France give the Charles De Gaulle back?


  • Germany? Last time Germany sent troops into another country was when they invaded Russia.

    Last I checked Germany wasn’t allowed to have a real military since the end of the cold war. Germany and France both have the diplomatic influence in Africa and Europe which we lack. You can’t solve every problem by dropping a bomb.

    Honestly, why should we care what Germany thinks? They can’t help us, and their current government main tenament is anti-U.S. sentiment. France, you elected the Facist. WHy should we care about France? Why they are at it, why doesn’t France give the Charles De Gaulle back?

    Should we give the terrorist cells broken in Paris and Berlin back then? Maybe cancel our trade agreements. France never elected a Facist.

    Why should we care about them? Why should they care about us? Because we’re members of the same world. France and Germany lead Europe. Europe, collectively, has the same weight as the United States in world affairs. And Europe is growing stronger every day, as the European Union succeeds. It is in our best interests to see a strong Europe, and to be friends with them.


  • F_ALK-should it be like that (the law of the jungle)- should you have the right to expect it not to be? if you carry yourself by this code, then you will never need the help of another individual. and if you expect the help when you fail, then eventually you become indifferent towards failure. failure is unacceptable. period…

    should a doctor be liable, or should I… yes, and we both are. if I break something, mis diagnose something, or by actions directly cause an accident then I personally, as well as the business I work for (in larger cases) are responsible. how much a doctor should have to pay is a topic of debate. many unworthy sloth’s feel their pain and suffering is worth millions, I feel it’s worth about the .32 cents it costs me for a 9mm round. but that’s another story.


  • Let’s not forget the fact that the overwhelming majority of Europe does support the United States proposed military action against Iraq. Just because France and Germany are thumbing thier liberal nose at us doesn’t mean they speak for Europe as a whole.

    Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s ass what France thinks about what we want to do. Have they so soon forgotten that it was “imperialist” America that liberated their country for them? :roll:

    Joke:

    Q.) Why did Euro-Disney stop launching off fireworks at 10:00 PM?
    (scroll down for answer)

    A.) Becuase the French military kept surrendering every night. :P


  • Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s a** what France thinks about what we want to do. Have they so soon forgotten that it was “imperialist” America that liberated their country for them?

    Have you forgotten that they won our revolution for us?


  • yanni me and falk have been going round and round with that IDEA. what you give france credit for, he critisizes us for doing the same with the contras. but instead of calling it winning the war for us, or them, WE"VE been calling it meddling.


  • @Yanny:

    Have you forgotten that they won our revolution for us?

    Yawn, I do believe the main reason we won is cuza some dumb General named Washington who never won a real battle. He just tied up a lotta rented Hessian troops and cost the Brits too much money(Pounds, that is.)

    :lol: DeviaS, Love dat joke!

    Yanny,France and Germany will lead Europe right into being Islamic nations …
    They are both already Islamic hostages.

    Cys, You cannot leave the Fifth Column so easily :evil: .

    Yawny, your East coast friend should not complain. Things are cheaper in KC (housing, insurance, etc…) and if he had been saving for that rainy day like his public school ed. and parents never taught him… he and his family woulda been fine.

    @Falk:

    …what if your talents are arts…something “unproductive”, that doesn’t make “a profit”… why then are sports people paid that much, or musicians, some movie actors? but why not writers, ballett dancers etc.? All the time you ignore one thing: culture

    I seem to recall a coupla good artists who earned little to nothing for their artwork. One of dem efen got fed unt chateaued by his friends. Didn’t they start a nightclub called the Renaissance?
    Now art is homoerotic photos, a crucifix in urine, a line up of soup cans, elephant dung on a painting of the Madonna. I call it Shock Disart. However, their are idiots out there with money (la nuovo rich[sp.?]) who have money to burn and wanna be patron of la arts.

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