India crush, how to stop

I think like most of the other strats I’ve seen so far, if Japan WANTS to take ‘x’ or ‘y’ badly enough, she has the power to do so (especially if she is willing to trade planes out). The real question is the opportunity cost of throwing all those planes into battle in India. How does that impact operations in China? Is the US free and clear to take Truk (and then become a menace within a turn or two)? Have the ANZAC’s been hit at all? Are they collecting their 15 IPC and able to throw raids at the DEI?

Without seeing the long-term play out, it’s hard to see if it’s a cost effective strategy or not. I admit at first brush, it sure seems powerful, but I’m not sure if the loss of India means the loss of the game as long as the other Allies are moving quickly. Japan’s income will be pretty high after taking India, but will she be able to replace the losses she suffers taking it? I guess a lot could depend on those AA rolls too, but Japan should plan on losing 2 planes going in + any that she takes as casualties to keep the assault going. I’m not sure that’s superior to a slower grind but I guess we’ll see eventually.

I think a big part of defending against any strat is accurately predicting if it’s coming or not. If Britain sees the tell-tale signs of it incoming, can she take any form of counter-measure that at least runs the cost up (ie, maybe building a DD to soak-off the shelling?).

On J2 what are they bringing into the Shan state that the UK cannot counter attack and kill? You hit the Phillipines on turn 1 and your other transport is in Celebes. So assuming you only take one loss on the Phillipines, on J2 you could move in the Shan state with 2 infantry from Siam, 3 infantry and an arty from Kwangsi (assuming they moved into French Indo China on turn one), plus the 2 infantry from the Celebes and a Infantry, arty and a tank from the Phillipines. This leaves a total of 8 infantry, 2 arty, and a tank.

On UK turn 1 they should be moving their ground units in India into Burma, this leaves them with 5 infantry, and an arty. So on UK2 they counter attack with 9 infantry (5 in Burma and 4 in Malaya), an arty, 4 fighters and a tac bomber. Round one UK should get 4-5 hits, Japan should get about 4 hits. next round UK should have about 4 hits, while Japan should average 3 (assuming UK only had 4 hits on the first round of combat). Round three Uk should have three hits wiping the ground units out, while Japan should return one hit. Leaving the UK to occupy with an infantry and an arty. This destroys a pretty big chunk of the Japanese ground forces and will likely leave them weak in both South East Asia and the Dutch East Indies.

Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling. Either way if Japan pushes hard for India they will need allied help or they’ll fall. The allies should exploit this by taking control of the DEI.

Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.

No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.

@Uncle_Joe:

Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.

No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.

I understand that. Four fighters that can intercept bombers on a 2 or less is the deterent to strategic bombing raids (that now land in Burma). You move the AA gun to Burma to guard against a Jap air rush on the territory.

As far as this strat as a whole, I do think India is the easiest target for Japan, but when you get into move and counter move on the forums it just devolves into Theory and Allies. List a specific set of moves. If the strat is unstopable it stands to reason that a similiar set of moves will be used each time.

@Gwlachmai:

@Uncle_Joe:

Edit: If Japan lands their air force in Kwangsi, Uk may need to move up their airforce and the AA gun as well. The only problem with this being that now bombers could potentially make strategic bombing raids on India. In this event you have to prioritize, a round of lost income vs India falling.

No, factories have their own inherent AA guns now (which makes SBR even weaker). You can safely move the gun out without costing yourself anything on that front.

I understand that. Four fighters that can intercept bombers on a 2 or less is the deterent to strategic bombing raids (that now land in Burma). You move the AA gun to Burma to guard against a Jap air rush on the territory.

As far as this strat as a whole, I do think India is the easiest target for Japan, but when you get into move and counter move on the forums it just devolves into Theory and Allies. List a specific set of moves. If the strat is unstopable it stands to reason that a similiar set of moves will be used each time.

Even if there is a strat which guarantees an Ind capture J3 or J4, I feel like the game is still far from over (at least at this point), since Jap will probably have to effectively ignore ANZ, US, and Chi in order to accomplish this type of guarantee-strat.  After India and UK/DEI territs are taken, Jap is still being outproduced by Allies, but they have a much more strategic position, including a MIC on Yun’s doorstep and a more contiguous front, and options on which victory cities to go after.

That depends on the air losses they take in killing India. All of Asia (plus the NO bonus for India) is only +30 IPC’s, bringing Japan up to America’s income. Though no longer needing to fund a landwar would allow them to concentrate on naval production. As well as possibly having better positioned factories to contest the DEI.

The survival of both china and the uk are intertwined. If one falls then japan will surely destroy the other. In my experience the only way the
allies can win us if at least one of these nations survives, and usually it’s both or neither. My thoughts are that it’s up to the US and Anzac to put enough pressure on japan to keep china and or the uk alive. My problem is I can’t figure out what the US and Anzac should do.

Well again, as I mentioned above, I seriously doubt there IS a way to stop it if Japan wants India. The idea would be to come up with US/ANZAC strats that make Japan pay for that heavy of a commitment of assets that far West. Without seeing in it action, I can’t really offer too much other than generalities. I do think that is it ends up costing Japan anywhere NEAR around 10 planes, it’s not worth it, particularly if it’s occupying the bulk of her TR assets in the early turns as well.

If Japan has put that many resources into taking India, China would probably still be fairly alive-ish. If the US took TRUK, they could use that to send transports to China in one turn and blitz a bunch of territorites, assuming you brought tanks, behind the majority of the Japanese forces. This could be a huge pain for Japan because China can now build on either side of the Japanes forces and take back even more territory. If we’re still thinking in terms of a US “conveyer belt” to the DEI, this wouldn’t even hamper that strategy too much. The US fleet at TRUK can hit every island except Sumatra and ANZAC could do transport work to actually take the islands. I’m wondering whether this would be effective in diverting the IJN if the US sent their whole TRUK fleet to China instead of just transports. Right now I’m thinking not…

Oh, by the way, I’ve only played 4 games of Pacific so someone please tell me why I’m wrong before I do this for real and get my butt handed to me. 

I think that’s a fair assesment, but, overall it’s probably a better position for Japan if India is conquered.

On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.

@Xayd74:

On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.

Not sure if you are saying that you put aa guns in the flight path of japanese air so that they get to shoot at them as they fly over.  If you are that is wrong.  Unlike classic AA planes can fly over territories with aa guns with no penalty.  they only get shot at when they are attacking a territory with an aa gun.

Also not sure how you get to three anyway.  If you SBR a territory the aa gun doesnt shoot at the planes.  the factory aa gun shoots but thats it.  the actual aa gun only participates in actual combat.

@ksmckay:

@Xayd74:

On my first turn with the UK, I always purchase an additional AA and move the existing one into Burma. That means 3 AA’s Japan’s planes must fly through to attempt this. That fear alone is a heavy deterrent.

Not sure if you are saying that you put aa guns in the flight path of japanese air so that they get to shoot at them as they fly over.  If you are that is wrong.  Unlike classic AA planes can fly over territories with aa guns with no penalty.  they only get shot at when they are attacking a territory with an aa gun.

Also not sure how you get to three anyway.  If you SBR a territory the aa gun doesnt shoot at the planes.  the factory aa gun shoots but thats it.  the actual aa gun only participates in actual combat.

He’s saying 3 assuming the planes fly back over Bur in NCM.  But again, it doesn’t happen according to OOB rules.

What is TRUK?

Caroline Islands. It was Japans main base in the Carolines in WW II.

In my last game, I played Japan and did a different variation of the India push. On the first and second turns I built transports, infantry and artillery. On the first two turns I took Indo-China and as many Chinese territories as possible all with a mind to shift forces south towards India.  On turn 3, I unleashed the Japanese hordes capturing Kwangtung, the Philippines, Borneo, Celebes, Java, Sumatra, Malaya and Shan State. The Allies did the best they could to preserve their forces by reteating and staying out of my way.  By turn 4, India was isolated and reduced to an economy of 4. On turn 5 India fell to a wave of Japanese land units that took the Burma Road from China, transports loaded with infantry and artillery from the early builds and the massive air force.  The US could not breach either the Japan or Caroline Island air bases by turn 5 and the Anzacs were cowering in Australia. As we sat back and analyzed the game and what the Allies could have done differently, we could not come up with anything.  At the end of turn 5, India was crushed and Japan had the military and economic advantage over the Allies.  :? :?

We haven’t tried the J1 attack yet, but the last couple of games saw Japan buying 2 x transports on the first turn + 1 minor complex.

The first game wound up being a J2 attack, and China got steam rolled in a couple turns, then India went bye-bye.

The second game wound up a J3 attack, at which point China was down to just two infantry. India enjoyed an extra turn of infantry building, then got crushed under a tidal wave of Japanese units.

We’ve been fooling around with using the British CA & DD to screen off Java and Sumatra (we call the “lower block”), and the British BB and the US DD to screen off the Philippines from the 2 transports in Japan on J2 (we’re calling this move the “upper block”. The Brit BB goes to the SZ with Guam, and the US DD blocks the adjacent SZ between Guam & Asia. I don’t have the SZ numbers handy at the moment). The two blocking moves together can present the Japanese with some interesting choices on J2. To be honest, this is the first and only situation we’ve seen that causes the Japanese player to consider a J3 attack.

The minor complex going into Asia on J1, even with it’s 3 unit restriction, has been huge in the games we’ve played. Just when we thought that the Allies were back into the game on an even level, this move tipped the scales right back to Japan’s favor.

I know it sounds crazy, but after our last crushing Japanese win in which India again fell, I was looking at the board and trying to think of some way to threaten Japan more directly. I thought maybe an American minor IC (which could go to a major one later), along with a naval base in Alaska might do the trick?

Especially if the Japanese attack on J1, the US could put both down by US2. The Japanese fleet would be at the other end of the gameboard…ah, just a thought.

If Japan is going for India as fast as possible then the ANZAC needs to ferry fighters as soon as possible to provide some high rolling defence.  I think the US should try to pressure the island of Japan itself and throw everything you have at it.  Its an idea and it could force Japan to build more things there just to try to ward you off.  Basically you could fake out Japan then land on mainland Asia.  Being extremely aggressive with the US and not being afraid to lose things is what I found worked against Japan in both my allies wins.  Granted I was playing against people who are not as good as me, it came down to buying the correct units and playing smartly, taking things back from Japan and giving her more options to consider instead of just all or nothing at India.  ANZAC needs to try to get both bonuses to get themselves faster in the game which some people probably don’t even try to do.  Just have to harass and pick off units where ever possible with the allies, all the while pushing as fast and as hard as you can.

I havent tried this so take it with a grain of salt:

The key to fending off the India Crush, I think, is the ANZAC fighters.  India should not stand on its own, and for it to survive this all-out attack the Allies (capital A) need to actually work as allies (lowercase A).  Thus, how about moving 3 or 4 of the ANZAC fighters to India as soon as it is clear the Japanese are going all-out against India?  This would need the Allies to hold on to Malaya, but if they can do so, its not hard to start ferrying fighters over to India by Allies Turn 2 and fully reinforced by Allies Turn 3.  Now, in my games, Malaya hasn’t always been held, but it does require a concerted effort by the Japanese to take it… and if there are 3+ fighters plus the staring INF sitting there, its a tough nut to crack.

Now, of course the ANZAC player wont want to vacate Australia until its clear that Japan is going all-out for India - so an early relocation of fighter assets to NT or W Australia would be appropriate – with the intention of getting them to Malaya as soon as reasonably possible.  Though inconvenient, Malaya does offer the ability for those fighters to relocate back to Australia for whatever reason.

So, without much work and depending on the builds, India could have 10+ INF and 6+ fighters on point when the India crush occurs.  Thats a lot of dice to roll.  Its no guarantee to hold off the Japanese, but it does but India in a position that if it falls, the Japanese are going to have to pay a dear, dear price.

Agree that Anzac fighters are key to the British defense of India if Japan goes all out for Calcutta. Staging area may be important. Anzac fighters may have to stay land in Java, Sumatra, or Malaya. Preferably a location where there are at least 2 infantry to absorb losses. One alternative for the Anzac player is to build an airbase in Western Australia(Perth). Burma is only five moves away, alleviating the need for a risky stage in SE Asia.

The US fighters/TACs in Hawaii can land in the Solomon Islands if there is a J1 attack. From there, they can skip to Burma as well to shore up defenses.

@elque:

One alternative for the Anzac player is to build an airbase in Western Australia(Perth). Burma is only five moves away, alleviating the need for a risky stage in SE Asia.

ANZAC doesn’t have the cash from the outset to build an airbase.  If it did have the income, then yeah, it would be a great idea… but until it hits one of those NOs - an airbase is pretty much out of the question.  That means staging in a central location is even more important.

ANZAC has to wait until R2 for the airbase in WAUS so that their fighters can help defend India by R3. It’s safer then moving then moving the FIG to Malaya (Japan can wipe them out if it wants to), and they’re getting there at the same time. Move ANZAC’s 4 FIG to Queensland R1 and that way they’re in position to either defend the Caroline Islands after a US attack or shift to Calcutta.

Take Korea with the US.
Build a Major IC there.
Blockade Japan, retake some mainland.
India crush will stop.