North Africa Axis Question

More and better tanks for the italian army and a better coordination between italian navy and air force.

More supplies from Italy and Germany. Afrika Corps always short of everything. Another Panzer division would help also. But without proper supply nothing would help for long.

Another Panzer divison WITH A GOOD SUPPLY LINE!!  Thats what killed Rommel was lack of supplies.

I voted for another Luftflotte.  In most of the readings I have done on the North African campaign, most German commanders stated the biggest thorn in their sides during the campaign was losing air superiority.

@Historybuff:

Another Panzer divison WITH A GOOD SUPPLY LINE!!  Thats what killed Rommel was lack of supplies.

that’s why I voted for the aquila; an CV would had helped keep the supply line alive and develop air superiority in the sea and on the coast.

tough call… i think another German air wing might have done the job for Rommel…but even that might not have helped Germany much…the USA was getting stronger and better…

@Historybuff:

Another Panzer divison WITH A GOOD SUPPLY LINE!!  Thats what killed Rommel was lack of supplies.

OK I’ll try this again and see if it gets removed again. (And I’m sure it will)

“the ball and chain”

Ya see in support of the above post by History Buff I offered a partial quote from Guderian: “Logistics is the ball and chain of armoured warfare.”

Why do I waste my frickin time here?

Another “Star of Africa” would probably helped as well… 8-)

Rommel nailed the Americans something fierce in late '42 too, didn’t he? If he actually had support and some supply, he’d have taken out the Brits in Egypt, rolled into the Suez, took Palestine, and then have raced back to Algeria and Libya in time to blow the Americans outta the water.

Man, if Hitler had given him what he wanted, he’d have won the war!

What do you mean w. another Panzer Division ABWorsham?..I’m curious :-)…The DAK had only 2 Panzer Division on Paper, they were no true PD’s cuz the 21st for example was the former 5th Leichte PD so it had not it full strength and potencial…Hitler Often declared leichte PD’s being full strength and Operational PD’s but most of the time those Division had one Tank Regiment less and/or no Medium Tanks like PIV 's…Hitler did that to fool his enemys and his own Generals maybe :-D…let me know

I understand now where you coming from…
IMO a good established supply route would have help the best way to lead the DAK to victory, but to have a good Supplyroute you need Air protection/superiority and Naval protection/presence…so Malta needs to be taken along w. Gibraltar to eliminate the bigger threats… a Plus for another Fliegerkorpse…but you have to exchange the leader in the headquater as well since he did no pay to much attention to the African theatre…

@i:

i think at most rommle only had 100-150 panzer IIIs or IVs

close call but Rommel had only around a 100 Panzer II, Panzer III and Panzer IV in the 15th & 21st PD together ( Except schwere Versuchsabteilung 501 w Heavy Panzer VI Tiger I tanks). Excluded all Command Tanks and Tankhunters and so on…. 8-)

@ABWorsham:

@aequitas:

What do you mean w. another Panzer Division ABWorsham?..I’m curious :-)…The DAK had only 2 Panzer Division on Paper, they were no true PD’s cuz the 21st for example was the former 5th Leichte PD so it had not it full strength and potencial…Hitler Often declared leichte PD’s being full strength and Operational PD’s but most of the time those Division had one Tank Regiment less and/or no Medium Tanks like PIV 's…Hitler did that to fool his enemys and his own Generals maybe :-D…let me know

I realize that the 21st Panzer, the former 5th Light, was not an original Panzer division. I was trying to make the point that without the ports Benghazi or Tobruk to support his operations no amount of tanks were going to win Rommel Egypt. What good are tanks without fuel, just an immoble blockhouses?

as much as Fighters since they run on fuel as well…

The italians tried 3 times to show their combat skills and it didn’t worked out that well…First time when Italy engaged in the late Phase of the France campaign to “help” Germany out but were not able to defeat the remainings of the france Army near Andorra,
Second Time Mussolini started to crush Greece starting from Albany but failed so Hitler had to turn all his Tanks arround to help brother Mussolini again and of course Africa when Musso tried to defeat the Frenchies starting in Lybia but again resulted in a disaster and Hitler had to aid his comrade again…well like you can now imagine he was some sort of irritated of Mussolini and his fighting skills that this might maybe another reason why Hitler did not pay to much attention to Africa as well and missed out on the opportunity to gain the oilfields in Iran and meet w. Heeresgruppe Sued to finish off the Caucasus the easy way!!..

@aequitas:

The italians tried 3 times to show their combat skills and it didn’t worked out that well…First time when Italy engaged in the late Phase of the France campaign to “help” Germany out but were not able to defeat the remainings of the france Army near Andorra,
Second Time Mussolini started to crush Albany but failed so Hitler had to turn all his Tanks arround to help brother Mussolini again and of course Africa when Musso tried to defeat the Frenchies in Lybia but again resulted in a disaster and Hitler had to aid his corade again…well like you can now imagine he was some sort of irritated of Mussolini and his fighting skills that this might maybe another reason why Hitler did not pay to much attention to Africa as well and missed out on the opportunity to gain the oilfields in Iran and meet w. Heeresgruppe Sued to finish off the Caucasus the easy way!!..

I don’t know, but the french italian fights never reached Andorra? (as it is located on the Spanish/ French border…)  Lybia was already Italian owned, and they attacked the British in Egypt. But that was after France had surrendered.  Also they had already succesfully occupied Albania in April 1939! I think you mean the war againts Greece, in which Germany had to help.  But it is the same conclusion their war efforts didn’t turn out that great…

I modified it, (was in a hurry when I typed it in) you are right w. Lybia and Greece and it was this what I was trying to point out…Since Mussolinis goal was to get to Andorra, I left it as is…should have mentioned that Italys Army was able to cross the Alps and was held off by the remainings of the french Armies…thanks for the reminder Micoom!..

i wonder what would of happened if italy wasnt so sad in WWII(hope i didnt afend anyone)

This was a tough poll. I really wasn’t sure which really applied, I agree with those who say supply was the key. Rommel could have all the tanks in the world but without fuel and ammo who cares?

The Italian Navy was really the key. The British navy established that it was going to do battle in the Med and not back down no matter what, the Italian’s tried to counter them but after a few painful defeats, and particually after Tarranto and the air attack forced the Italians to move the fleet farther north and away from the action, the Axis in N. Africa were for all practical purposes cut off from the amount of supplies they would need.

The British were willing to risk capital ships to win, the Axis navies seemed adverse to losing ships, but that was the difference in experience.

I agree that the lack of coordination between the Germans and Italians, particually the German Luftwaffe and the Italian navy was unacceptable. When they wanted to get a convoy through, they did. But that dedication was not always present.

An Italian AC would have been a big target that the Brits would have made every effort to take out. You can’t just invent Naval aviation you have to know what you are doing.

Simply put the Italian Navy tried, sort of, to control the Central Med and when it did not come easy they seemed to lose stomach for the fight.

A modern example is the Falklands War of 82. When the Argentinian Navy lost the Belgrano, its big cruiser, to the sub stike, the Navy which had a key part in the plan to defend the Falklands, lost heart and retreated to their home waters. Giving the Brits free run of the battle zone. The Argentinian Air Force did what it could and fought bravely but given the flying distances it had to operate and the lack of coordination between the services they had to deal with, it was not enough.

Germany were too mean to everyone else, should of got more allies in the West, and should of sent rockets at Washington once they entered the war.