Submarine FAQ Question

You’ve seen it.  This is the final version, unless you guys can find a situation it doesn’t cover.  The purpose of this discussion at this point is to see if the wording covers all situations, not to question the validity of the rule itself.

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

@moompix:

I think what’s a little fuzzy now, is how many times a sub can make this special attack during the enemy’s turn.

Is it once during the entire turn?

Is it once per phase?

Is it once per group of transports moving through its sea zone?

Obviously, each sub only shoots once, when a single group of any number of transports moves through on their way to a specific sea zone. But, there could be two separate groups making two separate moves from different sea zones and/or to different sea zones.

That would be my only question as well.

For balance I would think one shot only per phase regardless of how many transports moved through in different routes each phase.  Other than the fact that you can leave a transport alone in the enemy subs seazone by continuing to move the warship, everything about this rule seems ok to me.

Once per phase could lead to the following:

A player moves a lone unloaded transport through a sea zone containing 5 enemy subs. The subs attack, most likely destroying the transport. That player now safely moves 5 fully loaded unaccompanied transports through the sea zone.

Of course, this may be the last game of A&A that player plays with that group, but still.

You could choose to not shoot at that first transport, obviously the player is trying to be sneaky, best wait for the juicier target.

What if the player tries to move them one at a time through the sea zone? as a way to try and insure only one can be destroyed, or as a way to make it so only one sub shoots at each transport. Lets say the player has 5 transports that might make a move through the sea zone containing 5 subs. He moves one. OK, he’s up to something, I’ll fire with just one sub. He moves another, I’ll fire with another sub. He moves a third, I’ll fire with my third sub. He doesn’t try to move any others through the sea zone. If he had moved them all at once, all 5 of the subs would have fired, making a kill more likely.

I don’t really expect the errata to try and cover this situation, though. I can take care of it myself, with a quick toss out the door.

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

@moompix:

Once per phase could lead to the following:

A player moves a lone unloaded transport through a sea zone containing 5 enemy subs. The subs attack, most likely destroying the transport. That player now safely moves 5 fully loaded unaccompanied transports through the sea zone.

Of course, this may be the last game of A&A that player plays with that group, but still.

You could choose to not shoot at that first transport, obviously the player is trying to be sneaky, best wait for the juicier target.

What if the player tries to move them one at a time through the sea zone? as a way to try and insure only one can be destroyed, or as a way to make it so only one sub shoots at each transport. Lets say the player has 5 transports that might make a move through the sea zone containing 5 subs. He moves one. OK, he’s up to something, I’ll fire with just one sub. He moves another, I’ll fire with another sub. He moves a third, I’ll fire with my third sub. He doesn’t try to move any others through the sea zone. If he had moved them all at once, all 5 of the subs would have fired, making a kill more likely.

I don’t really expect the errata to try and cover this situation, though. I can take care of it myself, with a quick toss out the door.

Movement is still simultaneous, and by eliminating the vague wording from before of needing a warship in that seazone, there is no leapfrogging possible.  You’re moving 6 unaccompanied transports through on the same phase (combat move).  5 of them are getting shot at.  If you move another 6 through on noncombat, 5 of them are getting shot at.  It doesn’t matter which move point or if there are multiple paths or groups:  6 unaccompanied transports find themselves in the enemy subs’ seazone.  5 are getting shot at.  Just like Kamikazees, the firing occurs after the combat move is finalized, but before the combat phase occurs.  You can’t adjust as you go based on how severly the subs slaughtered your transports.

@kcdzim:

Movement is still simultaneous, and by eliminating the vague wording from before of needing a warship in that seazone, there is no leapfrogging possible.  You’re moving 6 unaccompanied transports through on the same phase (combat move).  5 of them are getting shot at.  If you move another 6 through on noncombat, 5 of them are getting shot at.  It doesn’t matter which move point or if there are multiple paths or groups:  6 unaccompanied transports find themselves in the enemy subs’ seazone.  5 are getting shot at.  Just like Kamikazees, the firing occurs after the combat move is finalized, but before the combat phase occurs.  You can’t adjust as you go based on how severly the subs slaughtered your transports.

I agree with that. Don’t actually roll for the attacks, while moves are still being made. Note which transports moved through a particular sea zone unaccompanied, then make a single attack roll against all of them. It’s really not going to be a big deal keeping this straight. Players are going to make sure their transports are accompanied most of the time. You might have a few unaccompanied moves through sub infested waters per game, tops.

This is the rule from AA40P page #30 (thought it might help)

Does Not Block Enemy Movement:
_The “stealth” ability of subs also allows enemy ships to ignore their presence. Any sz that contains only enemy subs does not stop the movement of a sea unit. Sea units ending their combat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs may choose to attack them or not. Sea units can also end their noncombat movement in a sz containing only enemy subs."

There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."_

This is the Q & A from the Unofficial Errata/FAQ on the subject from 1-26-2010 (soon to be out dated)

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do friendly surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  A surface warship that starts its movement along with one or more transports and moves with them will prevent sub attacks.  Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

If you notice in the answer part it sounds like the tpt and SW Ship roles are reversed, giving extra movement to the tpt. The SW Ship doesn’t need to start its move w/tpt, the tpt needs to start its movement w/SW Ship. (This should be pulled it makes things even more confusing)

This is the last Q & A Krieghund posted, I’m not sure if it is totally replacing the above Q & A, or is in addition to it.
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2010, 05:46:09 pm »

OK, we’re taking this thing in a different direction:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*

1. If a tpt will either move into or pass through a sz containing a sub, and it moved by itself (unescorted) prior to the sub sz, or after it left it, the sub is eligible to fire its one shot @ 2, even if the unescorted move was 2 sz away from the subs sz.

2. If a tpt is escorted properly into the sz containing a sub to preform an ampib (tpt is staying), but its only escort is moving on to the next sz for an attack, is the tpt safe from the sub. It was accompanied through all its moves. Seems if you abandon it though it should not be safe.

3. Is this line from the 1-26-Errata  still in the running:  
   Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

Why I ask is if you bring in a SW Ship to attack the sub, and it submerges you would have a SW Ship in the sz (that can’t move). It would be doing the same thing (patrol) as the above statement. This shouldn’t prevent attack in the CM phase (the combat/patrol took place after CM phase), but should offer protection afterwords in the non CM phase base on the same principle as above.

4. A sub can attack …… in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2)
   This could be taken 2 ways:
   a) The sub gets to fire its one shot in each enemy move phase (2 shots total per sub per enemy turn).
     would need to say: Each sub fires once per enemy movement phase
   b) The sub only gets one shot per enemy turn and must choose which phase to fire.
      would need to say: in either combat or noncombat movement (choose one)

The way you want tpt protected at all times I think its probably (a), but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

@WILD:

From reading post from everyone, I’m getting confused as to what is rule and what is conjecture.
Krieghund will you clarify please?*

The rules are what is in the rulebook and this FAQ:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

@WILD:

3. Is this line from the 1-26-Errata  still in the running: 
   Also, friendly surface warships that were already in the enemy sub’s sea zone and do not move will prevent attacks on transports that move through or into the sea zone.

No.

The idea is that a warship that accompanies the transport for its entire move is escorting it.  In any other case, it just happens to be in the same sea zone, so it affords no protection.

Sound’s good ,I think this rule helps make the sub’s  historical threat real, you really didn’t move TR’s around the Pacific unaccompanied during WWll.

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.

A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.

Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.

@moompix:

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

My guess is that a sub can make this special attack once in the combat move phase and once in the non-combat move phase.

A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement.

Normally “either/or” is used to emphasize that only one of two things is possible, not both. And here, could be taken to be a reference to when the sub can attack. However in this case, my guess is it is being used to emphasize that it doesn’t matter which type of movement the transport is making, and is not being used to restrict the number of opportunities the sub can have to make this special attack against an unaccompanied transport.

Ok we seem to be loading up on the sub gets one shot @ 2 in each of the 2 move phases (combat, and non combat). It gets this ability in each enemies turn (as long as it is deemed the tpt(s) was unescorted at some point).

Clue us in here Krieghund, is this the intent of the rule?
Thanks WB

@Razor:

@Krieghund:

Based on the wording of the rules and FAQ, what would you guess the answer is?

Well, the FAQ and Errata change every week, so its no point in guessing, you will always win since you edit the rules.

How about this Razor, stop being so negative.  The Errata is NOT OFFICIAL, therefore work to help make the wording solid and airtight so that is can stand the test of time when is it does become official.

Thanks, Ryx.

The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon.  Anybody else see that?

Yes, it seems to give the sub a similar treatment to AA guns. Every time a tpt goes by, it get a shot. Just like every time an AA is attacked by air, it shoots. Theoretically, a sub could fire numerous times in one complete round of play.

@Krieghund:

Thanks, Ryx.

The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon.  Anybody else see that?

Yes, that’s why it was the third option. But, it seems to not quite fit with idea of all movement being considered to take place at the same time.

@Variable:

Yes, it seems to give the sub a similar treatment to AA guns. Every time a tpt goes by, it get a shot. Just like every time an AA is attacked by air, it shoots. Theoretically, a sub could fire numerous times in one complete round of play.

If it does work like AA guns- two things bother me

1. you can no longer fire AA in noncombat
2. only one AA gun can fire in a tt

@Krieghund:

Thanks, Ryx.

The wording of the FAQ answer leads me to believe that each group of transports that moves through the sea zone unescorted may be fired upon.  Anybody else see that?

If it does work more like AA guns then,

Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).

Some things that may help:
Swap out a few words in the orig rule:

There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in either combat or noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."

There is an exception to this rule, however. A sub can attack any transport that moves into or through its sz unaccompanied by surface war ships, in both combat and noncombat movement. Each sub fires once (using its attack value of 2) at each unescorted transport(s), and one transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement."

I think we now understand when a tpt is considered to be escorted or not (although I still think many people may miss part of this).

Now we are starting to see the intent is for a sub to be able to fire multiple shots in the 2 move phases. I know its a pain to go back in and swap out a few words in the orig rules text, but it would make it easier to get the full intent of the rule.

@WILD:

Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).

No, the intent is that each sub gets one shot at each transport group.  There’s safety in numbers.

We can’t change the rulebook at this point.  Any changes will need to be made to the FAQ.

@Krieghund:

@WILD:

Ok I see each sub could get multiple shots in each phase. Not sure why you emphasized each group though. It almost makes it sound like if you bring in a group of unescorted tpt’s (3) together, you might only get one shot at the group as a whole, instead of at each tpt in the group (which I think is the intent).

No, the intent is that each sub gets one shot at each transport group.  There’s safety in numbers.

We can’t change the rulebook at this point.  Any changes will need to be made to the FAQ.

Ok I was wrong again (I’m starting to get used to it).

So the sub rule doesn’t work like an AA gun would. You only get only one shot at the entire group of transports as a whole.
I have to ask if you have a single tpt coming in from one direction, and a group of transports (3) coming in from a different direction. Would that be considered two groups (2 shots), or would you consider all tpt’s involved as one group (allowing only 1 shot). Keeping in mind all transports involved were not escorted, and all movement was in the same movement phase.