please do this in the game forums where people play online
Rolling Dice and the Providence of God
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way more than half the posts are nutty.
I agree, and we all know who those nut jobs are……coughNcswitchcough :-P
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hydra, many people are surprised at how much “scientific fact” is taken on faith and how much “scientific evidence” has been proven a hoax, especially anthropological findings. i could/would provide links if you are truly open minded, but from the tone of your posts you do not appear to be :cry:
if i am reaching a false conclusion i apologisethe problem from the creation side of the argument is too much unnecessary stubbornness in some area as well  :-P
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“That man is the product of causes that had no prevision of the ends they were achieving; that his origin,his growth,his hopes and fears,his loves and his beliefs,are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire,no heroism,no intensity of thought and feeling,can preserve individual life beyond the grave;that all the labors of the ages,all the devotion,all the inspiration,all the noonday brightness of human genius,are destined to extinction in the vast heat death of the Solar System,and that the whole temple of Mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a Universe in ruins–all these things,if not quite beyond dispute,are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths,only on the firm foundation of unyielding dispair,can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.” Bertrand Russell---- the greatest philosopher of all time.
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ok, so it wasn’t a false conclusion :|
thanks for the clarification :mrgreen:
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“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”-Romans 1:20
If humans would only look at the good things still left in this world, the beauty that still exists in a rainbow or in a sunrise, it would not take long for an open-minded man to realize the sheer insanity of a universe created by complete randomness.
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@The:
If this biologist ( I cant remember his name but I saw him promoting his book about faith and science on BookTV) is so smart,why doesnt he see the paradox of ID? Because of his “faith”,thats why. He knows that ID contradicts itself,so he goes the “faith” route and throws logic into the wind. I have no respect for that.
Curious. Should I trust you on this?
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@The:
"That man is the product of causes that had no prevision of the ends they were achieving; that his origin,his growth,his hopes and fears,his loves and his beliefs,are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire,no heroism,no intensity of thought and feeling,can preserve individual life beyond the grave;that all the labors of the ages,all the devotion,all the inspiration,all the noonday brightness of human genius,are destined to extinction in the vast heat death of the Solar System,and that the whole temple of Mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a Universe in ruins–all these things,if not quite beyond dispute,are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths,only on the firm foundation of unyielding dispair,can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built."Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Bertrand Russell---- the greatest philosopher of all time.
“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks” Hebrews 11:4 - Abel - victim of Godless philosophy (see above above quote for details.)
It is funny how Abel’s “philosophy which rejects them” not only can hope to stand, but has stood for a very long time. I doubt Bertrand Russell’s words will be around as long as Abel’s.
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Dont “trust” me,trust your senses. Do you see God? No. Do you see things ( animals,sunsets,lightning that strikes and kills people) in nature ? Yes. Thats real. Why should I believe fables told by ignorant sheep herders from three thousand years ago? They were utterly,literally dumb about how nature works. A seven year old child today knows more about the world than all of these story tellers combined. Do you think they could explain what caused the wind to blow? No.They would says angels did it or God was blowing the air from his huge,mighty,invisible lungs. Most humans just dont want to let go of their fear that life is random and meaningless and its all about sex and death really. If mankind is the ultimate achievement of God,what a sad showing for God. First he makes angels and then one of them rebels. He then makes people and they eat an apple he told them not to eat. He makes a devil that has powers just like himself. Instead of just making Lucifer non-existent after having a war :-o in heaven of all places,he lets him traipse around in his Paradise. This is one confused creator who cant seem to get it right. Its such a fairy tale that it is actually funny
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“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks” Hebrews 11:4 - Abel - victim of Godless philosophy (see above above quote for details.)
It is funny how Abel’s “philosophy which rejects them” not only can hope to stand, but has stood for a very long time. I doubt Bertrand Russell’s words will be around as long as Abel’s.
Maybe not, but neither will be around after the sun gets blowed up. Which will prove Bertrand’s point quite nicely, only none of us will be there to know it… :-(
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the whole point of true freedom is not having God proven to you. then you are forced to, thats not freedom. if you want proof, you’ll die an empy person, because the proof is personal to every single one of us.
if God wanted to force us to believe in him by using scientific proof. why not then make us all slaves, b/c he’s already taken our freedom of choice and our free will away. its all about freedom, which is anathema to some athiest liberals. who love a forceful big government.
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I also can’t prove that leprechauns exist. But not believing in leprechauns doesn’t make me an empty person, does it?
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no, but leprachauns rock anyways. i would wish their existence just to get gold.
but back to God, leprechauns wouldnt have created you, and they dont exist. so therefore, if leprachausns didnt create us, how could they force us to believe in them. show themselves? if god created us, how do you want him to show himself, or prove himself. then that changes the entire world, no-ones free anymore b/c they know that there is a guy who will judge their deeds and their ethos of life. they are forced to become good, which makes them slaves.
and if i come across a leprechaun, i know someone who isnt getting any of my gold. yeah, thats right, no gold.
you can not believe in god, because he allows you to, because thats freedom. continue to do whatever you like.
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Doesn’t proof deny faith?
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@The:
Dont “trust” me,trust your senses. Do you see God? No. Do you see things ( animals,sunsets,lightning that strikes and kills people) in nature ? Yes. Thats real. Why should I believe fables told by ignorant sheep herders from three thousand years ago? They were utterly,literally dumb about how nature works. A seven year old child today knows more about the world than all of these story tellers combined. Do you think they could explain what caused the wind to blow? No.They would says angels did it or God was blowing the air from his huge,mighty,invisible lungs. Most humans just dont want to let go of their fear that life is random and meaningless and its all about sex and death really. If mankind is the ultimate achievement of God,what a sad showing for God. First he makes angels and then one of them rebels. He then makes people and they eat an apple he told them not to eat. He makes a devil that has powers just like himself. Instead of just making Lucifer non-existent after having a war :-o in heaven of all places,he lets him traipse around in his Paradise. This is one confused creator who cant seem to get it right. Its such a fairy tale that it is actually funny
You miss my point, which is simply that you do not know what you debunking. I mean that respectfully. In any debate or discussion, it is helpful to define terms. When you talk about “faith,” you ought to know how your opponents use that term. The dictionary and encyclopedias may be helpful, but not always. You need to know how a term is being used in a given context. You have to know your enemies better than your friends in argument. Try playing Axis and Allies with no knowledge of the opposition, their economies or military capabilities. You would not do well. Let’s look at what you said:
“If this biologist ( I cant remember his name but I saw him promoting his book about faith and science on BookTV) is so smart,why doesnt he see the paradox of ID? Because of his “faith”,thats why. He knows that ID contradicts itself,so he goes the “faith” route and throws logic into the wind. I have no respect for that.”
You are equivocating on the word "faith." In your first and second usage you use the word as a noun, or at least it appears so. Faith here, in the sentence, seems to point to a codified set of doctrines. So someone can hold to the religious faith of Islam, for example. In your second example, you point to “faith” as a verb where the scientist, whoever he or she is, no throws all reason away and simply has, or exercises, faith.
When I asked you should I trust you, I was simply saying, should I have faith in you. Why? Because that’s all faith means. It means trust in the context of believing. While I agree there are nuances surround the word and its use in given missive, at its base it simply means believe, trust. So again, should I trust you? Your answer does not matter. It proves my point; namely, that you do not understand what the word means to those who use it intelligently. To you it always means blind faith, blind trust, no mind.
Taking that a little further. Do you trust your senses? Yes, up to a point you do. Do you trust your car will get you to where you are going and do you put faith in the designers and engineers who created the car (as well as the line staff workers)? If a parent says, "I’ll be there at six o’clock to pick you up." Do they have faith in that person? Probably. And I bet if that person wants a ride home. They’ll be there. One more example is an airplane. I believe that airplanes can fly and I believe people can fly them well, but when I get on the airplane I am really trusting this is all true and putting my faith in a pilot.
These examples illustrate what faith is. It is not some blind, unreasonable thing that just the dummies have, people that can’t reason properly. Faith can be reasonable and reasonably applied. A reasonable faith not unheard of. You do it every single day. Incidentally, this is not even touching on God, the Bible, dumb nomadic sheep herders or anything religious. It is simply defining a term, even though I admit it certainly has religious connotations.
What you ought to debate is the object of someone’s faith, and the reasons for that faith, not faith itself.
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Doesn’t proof deny faith?
On the contrary, proof necessitates faith, unless one wants to deny reality.
If something is proven to be true, why would I not believe it? If airplanes really can fly, and pilots can fly them, why would I not place my trust in them both, and instead of travelling in a Conestoga from Miami to New York, I take the best round-trip deal I can find?
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Well I believe in diamonds. I might even believe in a diamond the size of a stove. I might even believe that there is a diamond the size of a stove buried somewhere in my back yard. Of coarse, there is no proof of a diamond the size of a stove ever exsisting, but I have faith that one does and it is buried in my back yard. Every Sunday my family and I like to dig for this diamond and I certainly would not want to live in a world where a diamond this big did not exsist and believing in this diamond gives my life meaning.
I saw a post like this somwhere but I don’t remember where
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@Mr:
Well I believe in diamonds. I might even believe in a diamond the size of a stove. I might even believe that there is a diamond the size of a stove buried somewhere in my back yard. Of coarse, there is no proof of a diamond the size of a stove ever exsisting, but I have faith that one does and it is buried in my back yard. Every Sunday my family and I like to dig for this diamond and I certainly would not want to live in a world where a diamond this big did not exsist and believing in this diamond gives my life meaning.
I saw a post like this somwhere but I don’t remember where
It is a play on the Ontological argument for God’s existence. I do not share it as a proof, but rather as a description of what must be given that God exists. It relies upon other arguments for its footing, such as Cosmological argumentation.
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Posted by: froodster
Quote from: johnny on January 24, 2007, 05:40:19 PM
“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks” Hebrews 11:4 - Abel - victim of Godless philosophy (see above above quote for details.)It is funny how Abel’s “philosophy which rejects them” not only can hope to stand, but has stood for a very long time. I doubt Bertrand Russell’s words will be around as long as Abel’s.
Maybe not, but neither will be around after the sun gets blowed up. Which will prove Bertrand’s point quite nicely, only none of us will be there to know it…
if your right, maybe so. if i’m right, maybe no :wink:
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Posted by: froodsterÂ
Quote from: johnny on January 24, 2007, 05:40:19 PM
“By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks” Hebrews 11:4 - Abel - victim of Godless philosophy (see above above quote for details.)It is funny how Abel’s “philosophy which rejects them” not only can hope to stand, but has stood for a very long time. I doubt Bertrand Russell’s words will be around as long as Abel’s.
Maybe not, but neither will be around after the sun gets blowed up. Which will prove Bertrand’s point quite nicely, only none of us will be there to know it…Â Â
if your right, maybe so. if i’m right, maybe no :wink:
What that poster may not realize is that It’s not like Bertrand Russell came up with something new. All he did was express in his language what Solomon did a long time ago in Ecclesiastes: “All is vanity.”
“There is nothing new under the sun.”
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well johnny, i guess your sylable count chased them away :lol:
its a pitty, because i was looking froward to some more stories :mrgreen:
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