Cost for tanks?

[Young Grasshopper]

@SEP:

Having played classic since 1986 I’m use to tanks costing 5 IPC.  Now that I’m playing 1942.2 and soon 1940 Global I see that tanks are now 6 IPC.  And I understand that the attack/defense values are now the same whereas in classic they defend like infantry.

Does anyone still use 5 IPC in the non-classic editions for simplicity?  Maybe I’m just use to 5 IPC (though I’m digging the lower costs for the other units).  :wink:

The introduction of the Mech Infantry at 4 IPCs allows for the increase to tanks and the separation of value between land units. If tanks were 5 IPCs… nobody would buy mech infantry or even artillery for that matter.

[knp7765]

In 1942.1 they were kept at 5 IPCs while their attack/defense values were bumped up to 3/3. There was a lot of howling over that as a lot of players thought that made tanks way overpowered. Strange that 1 IPC can make such a difference.

[SEP]

@Young:

The introduction of the Mech Infantry at 4 IPCs allows for the increase to tanks and the separation of value between land units. If tanks were 5 IPCs… nobody would buy mech infantry or even artillery for that matter.

You don’t feel the combined arms benefit of artillery or the blitz capability of mech infantry would be enough that people would still purchase it?

I’m just curious as the value of several other units have gone down but their benefits remained the same or were even slightly enhanced (such as a 2 hit battleship and aircraft carrier).  Not suggesting 6 IPC is wrong, just curious if anyone just went with 5 IPC out of habit.

In 1942.1 they were kept at 5 IPCs while their attack/defense values were bumped up to 3/3. There was a lot of howling over that as a lot of players thought that made tanks way overpowered. Strange that 1 IPC can make such a difference.

Starts to add up when you buy in bulk  :-D

[Der Kuenstler]

I too had a really hard time accepting the 6 IPC tank and kept 5 IPC tanks, until I saw one of my game night regulars repeatedly buy all tanks for the Germans and no infantry. It was very unrealistic as historically German armor actually only made up a small fraction of their forces. The 6 IPC tank keeps people buying infantry, a more historic purchase.

[Witt]

But Mech should be 5 though. It helps the Axis far too much.

[The Hessian]

Hi SEP,
I play Axis since the early 90’s. Since you can’t teach an old dog new tricks ;-) I use the “1942.1” IPC cost (and unit-attributes) for all of the various A&A-games I own; incl. tanks at 5 IPC’s.
Since I only possess “classic”, “Europe-1999”, “Pacific-2000” and “1942.1” along with the maps of “1942.2” and “1940-Global” (thanks’ YG!) there are no motorized infantry or tactical bombers in our games.
And btw. one of my favorite strategies whenever I play Germany includes to buy only infantry on my first turn. You need them when you knock on the gates of the Kremlin…

[SEP]

I’m very similar to you.  Been playing classic since 1986.  Up until last month that’s all I had played.  Then I bought 1942.2 and was really impressed with it.  I went ahead and purchased mech infantry and tactical bomber from HBG to use in the 1942.2 game.  As I mentioned in the other thread, I’ve also purchased units for the minor powers as I have the 1940 global map on the way.

In regards to the tanks, too be honest, I’m very tempted to stay with the 5 IPC cost.  I’m on the fence with it and like knp stated above, it’s strange what a difference 1 IPC can make.  How’s the 5 IPC working out for you?

[baron Münchhausen]

The balance prices for a A3 D3 to compete at the same level with A2 D2 unit, not considering movement capacity, is actually:
5.5 IPCs vs 4.5 IPCs.

So a Tank with 2 moves and being at 5 IPCs is a tactical deal compare to a 1 move artillery unit.
9 Tank (5.5 IPCs) vs 11 Artillery (4.5 IPCs) is roughly an even match around 50%.

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=9&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=11&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

8 Tanks (5 IPCs) vs 10 Artillery (4 IPCs) is a bit better for Artillery , but you only move 1.
45% vs 50%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=4&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=5&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

So for any land Power needing fast movement and a similar punch, you have a better tactical unit with a 5 IPCs Tank than a 4 IPCs.
Hence, Spring 1942 German’s Tank spamming.

With a 6 IPCs Tank, the attacker get a real drop if he use Tank.
4 Tanks (6 IPCs) vs 6 Artillery (4 IPCs)
22% vs 75%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=4&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=6&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

This means you buy 6 IPCs Tank for the tactical movement advantage but no more for the attack punch.

The offensive punch gets worse if you compare with the Inf+Art combo at 7 IPCs.
7 Tanks vs 12 units A2 D2 (6 Infs+ 6 Arts)
4% vs 95%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=7&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=12&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

[SEP]

That’s an interesting way to look at it Baron.  I appreciate you posting that.  I suppose the best route is to go with the 6 IPC cost for tanks.  I’ll just have to get use to it  :wink:

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

The balance prices for a A3 D3 to compete at the same level with A2 D2 unit, not considering movement capacity, is actually:
5.5 IPCs vs 4.5 IPCs.

So a Tank with 2 moves and being at 5 IPCs is a tactical deal compare to a 1 move artillery unit.
9 Tank (5.5 IPCs) vs 11 Artillery (4.5 IPCs) is roughly an even match around 50%.

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=9&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=11&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

8 Tanks (5 IPCs) vs 10 Artillery (4 IPCs) is a bit better for Artillery , but you only move 1.
45% vs 50%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=4&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=5&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

So for any land Power needing fast movement and a similar punch, you have a better tactical unit with a 5 IPCs Tank than a 4 IPCs.
Hence, Spring 1942 German’s Tank spamming.

With a 6 IPCs Tank, the attacker get a real drop if he use Tank.
4 Tanks (6 IPCs) vs 6 Artillery (4 IPCs)
22% vs 75%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=4&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=6&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

This means you buy 6 IPCs Tank for the tactical movement advantage but no more for the attack punch.

The offensive punch gets worse if you compare with the Inf+Art combo at 7 IPCs.
7 Tanks vs 12 units A2 D2 (6 Infs+ 6 Arts)
4% vs 95%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=7&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=12&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=2&pbem=

The balance prices for a A3 D3 to compete at the same offensive level with an Infantry A1 D2 unit, not considering movement capacity, is actually:
4 Tanks at 7 IPCs vs 7 Infantry at 4 IPCs.  OR 3 Tanks (5.25 IPCs)  vs 5.25 Infantry (3 IPCs)
49% vs 49%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=4&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=7&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

OOB prices makes Infantry better on offense, on a same IPCs basis:
3 Tanks (6 IPCs) vs 6 Infantry (3 IPCs):
35% vs 63%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=3&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=6&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

While the 1942.1 Tank remains a better offensive unit than Infantry on a same IPCs basis:
3 Tanks (5 IPCs) vs 5 Infantry (3 IPCs):
55% vs 42%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=3&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=5&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

So a 5 IPCs Tank has similar offensive power with an Artillery A2 D2 and is better on offense than an Infantry A1 D2 unit.
And in both cases, you get a 2 moves mobility unit over a limited 1 move units.

Hence, on offense a 5 IPCs Tank is always the best investment for your money.
Only the Infantry-Artillery combo is better offensive units but you loose the mobility given by Tank’s blitzing capacity.
7 Tanks (5 IPCs) vs 10 units (5 pairs at 7 IPCs)
23% vs 76%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=7&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=10&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

This can explain why some players find that 5 IPCs’ Tank spamming is the optimized ground unit buying.

[The Hessian]

Hi SEP,
in all of our games the „5IPC-Tanks (A3D3)“ are working very well and I don’t think they are to overpowered. Maybe at first I should mention that in all of our games we use a couple of house rules:

• At first no allied units are allowed in Russian territories; with the only exception that allied units may move into Russian territories containing an industrial complex. At the end of his following turn the Russian player may exchange them with his own pieces.
  In return for this favor, the Russians install a communist regime in every liberated territory; no matter who was the original owner. For example: in the unrealistic event that Russian troops invade a German-occupied Scotland, the Red Army helps the oppressed Scottish laborers to get rid of the capitalist & fascist yoke. And in return they will gladly deliver their 2IPC’s to Moscow.  ;-)
• to counter the Japanese tank storm towards Moscow via China in our 1942 games, battles in China last only for one round of combat (like in 1914), China receives 1d3 infantry per turn & province and you need 5 Chinese infantry to roll 1 attack-die.
• The U.S.A. has marines (from the original A&A-Pacific) and each Japanese destroyer may transport one infantry.
• and in our 1940 games we have a “Vichy” rule after the fall of Paris. (There is a 50% chance for each French colony to become “Free French” - aka British – while the rest comes under Vichy-rule. The conqueror of Paris gets the Vichy money. French troops in allied territory become British while the rest remains neutral until an allied power declares war on Vichy. Like a pro Axis neutral, Vichy then becomes part of the country that captured Paris.)

Especially with the help of allied “lend&lease” fighters and the “long distance” in China the 5IPC tanks are well balanced off. And even without these house rules, if you’re tanks attack without proper support of infantry and artillery any battle will be too expensive. No matter if you pay 5 or 6 IPC for your armor.

[baron Münchhausen]

About a 5 IPCs Tank, Russia could get a small advantage with it:

@Baron:

Since many talked about the Axis clear advantage.
Did anyone dare to change the cost of Russian Tank in 1942.2 game to fix the unbalance and gives a more historical feel?

Instead of a bid, here is the fix:
Russian Tank T-34
Attack 3
Defense 3
Move 2
Cost 5
Blitz

Only Russia have this lower cost of Tank.
This cost reduction worth for the massive Russian Tank production during WWII.

We can give a small compensation to Germany:
German’s U-boat
Attack 2
Defense 1
Move 2
Cost 5
Surprise Strike,
Submerge,
Stealth Move,
Cannot hit airplanes,
Cannot be hit by planes, unless Destroyer is present.
This cost reduction is for the increase of German’s Submarine production after 1941.

It will also gives to this two land Powers a substantial unit at 5 IPCs.

---

For those which understand french, a doc on T-34/76 and T-34/85

Le Char T-34, la force de frappe de l’armee russe - Documentaire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC4siPTFsziTDRlla7XQ_-E8UiLhbxr-M&v=uHc15JT59Ug

[SEP]

@Baron:

About a 5 IPCs Tank, Russia could get a small advantage with it:

@Baron:

Since many talked about the Axis clear advantage.
Did anyone dare to change the cost of Russian Tank in 1942.2 game to fix the unbalance and gives a more historical feel?

Instead of a bid, here is the fix:
Russian Tank T-34
Attack 3
Defense 3
Move 2
Cost 5
Blitz

Only Russia have this lower cost of Tank.
This cost reduction worth for the massive Russian Tank production during WWII.

We can give a small compensation to Germany:
German’s U-boat
Attack 2
Defense 1
Move 2
Cost 5
Surprise Strike,
Submerge,
Stealth Move,
Cannot hit airplanes,
Cannot be hit by planes, unless Destroyer is present.
This cost reduction is for the increase of German’s Submarine production after 1941.

It will also gives to this two land Powers a substantial unit at 5 IPCs.

---

For those which understand french, a doc on T-34/76 and T-34/85

Le Char T-34, la force de frappe de l’armee russe - Documentaire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC4siPTFsziTDRlla7XQ_-E8UiLhbxr-M&v=uHc15JT59Ug

That’s an interesting idea.  In a fashion that is basically a limited ‘Improved production Factory’ for Russia and a limited ‘Improved Shipyard’ for Germany a.k.a. Research and Development.  So that could be HR’d into a game, whether or not it uses R&D, as a limited development for these two nations.  Perhaps as an alternative option, Russia could have, instead of the 5 IPC tank, the Advanced Artillery.