Axis and Allies Revised Varient ( historical edition)


  • Heres some ideas which invaribly have some aspect from Andersson’s ideas on this:

    SS PANZERS
    (Germany only)
    Description: SS Panzers are specialized in repelling enemy advancement and make a considerable reinforcement to the German players defense. Use regular armor painted in black as SS Panzer units. S.S. Panzers cost 8 IPC’s and can only be built in Germany.

    Cost: 8
    Attack: 5
    Defense: 5
    Move: 2

    Setup: Germany receives one unit for free, during the first round only. This unit is brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    MECHANIZED INFANTRY
    Description: Mechanized Infantry represent elite infantry formations during the war. (Buy some halftrack pieces for these)

    Cost: 4
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 2
    Move: 2

    Setup: Each player receives two units for free, during the first round only. This unit is brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Special Ability: Each of your tanks gives one matching infantry one additional movement allowance and an increased attack capability of 2 or less in the first cycle of combat only. Even if supported by artillery, their attack remains 2. The tank and the infantry unit must leave from the same territory.

    SOVIET SHOCK TROOPS:
    Description: Representing higher echelon infantry forces. (Paint some Soviet infantry heads a bright orange)

    Cost: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 4
    Move: 2

    Setup: The Soviet Union receives one unit for free, during the first round only. This unit is brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    HEAVY ARTILLERY:
    Description: Representing higher caliber field Artillery pieces. (Use AA gun piece)

    Cost: 6
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 2
    Move: 1

    Setup: Germany and Soviet Union each receive one unit for free, during the first round only. This unit is brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Special Ability: They provide a +1 bonus to each matching attacking infantry like regular infantry or can perform a special attack as follows: It can attack from an adjacent space with a one free preemptive salvo and does not have to move in with other units. If it decides to move and attack then its hits are not preemptive.

    HEAVY TANKS:
    Description: Representing elite heavy and super heavy tank classes. (use painted 1/285 scale tanks for these)

    Cost: 7
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 4
    Move: 2

    Setup: Germany and Soviet Union each receive one unit for free, during the first round only. This unit is brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Special Ability: Each hit can target enemy armor units first before another unit is taken as a loss. (This includes Artillery and Mechanized Infantry as well as any armored types of units.

    Fast Carriers

    Description: Speedy ships with landing decks from which fighters can take off and land.

    (This is a revised rule for aircraft carriers only, not a new unit)

    Cost: 16
    Attack: 1
    Defense: 3
    Move: 3
    Hits: Takes 2 hits to sink

    Carry Fighters: Just like the box rules.

    Fighter Defense: Just like the box rules.

    Light Carriers (Escort Carriers)
    Cost: 10
    Attack: 0
    Defense: 1
    Move: 2
    Hits: Takes 1 hit to sink

    Setup: Japan and UK each receive one Light carrier unit for free, during the first round only. These free cruiser units are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Carry Fighters: Just like the box rules.

    Cruisers
    Description: Multipurpose ships that can fire on incoming enemy planes and conduct shore bombardment. (One can use the battleships from A&A Classic as cruisers.)

    Setup: Germany (in Baltic), Japan, UK, and USA (Pacific) each receive one cruiser unit for free, during the first round only. These free cruiser units are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Cost: 16
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3 (Antiaircraft fire)
    Move: 3
    Hits: Takes 2 hits to sink

    Special Abilities
    Shoot Down Air Units: Whenever an air unit enters a sea zone containing an enemy cruiser, the cruiser fires during the Conduct Opening Fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one cruiser in a sea zone can fire during the opening fire step, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed. This opening fire capability is for the first cycle of combat only and does not cancel the regular roll during the Defending Units Fire step.

    Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your cruisers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each cruiser fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A cruiser cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

    Destroyers
    Description: Small, fast warships that hunt submarines.

    (This is a revised rule for destroyers only, not a new unit)

    Cost: 10
    Attack: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
    Defense: 2 (3 when an enemy submarine is present)
    Move: 2 (3 when supported by a carrier)

    Special Abilities
    Supported by Carriers: When a destroyer move along with an aircraft carrier, the destroyer’s movement is increased to 3. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The destroyer and the aircraft carrier unit must leave from and end up in the same sea zone.

    Submarine Disruption: A destroyer cancels the special abilities of submarines. Enemy submarines cannot move freely through a sea zone containing your destroyer. If you have destroyers in combat involing enemy submarines, they attack and defend on a 3. Any casualties of enemy submarines can return fire. Also, enemy submarines cannot submerge while your destroyer is present.

    Shore Bombardment: In an amphibious assault, your destroyers may like battleships make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. Each destroyer fires once during the Conduct Opening Fire step against enemy land units in the territory being attacked (the enemy units do not fire back). A destroyer cannot conduct shore bombardment if it was involved in a sea combat prior the amphibious assault.

    Battleships
    Description: Powerful and nearly indestructible monarchs of the sea.

    (This is a revised rule for battleships only, not a new unit)

    Cost: 20
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 4
    Move: 2

    Special Abilities: All attacks on other naval ships are conducted with preemptive salvos to represent longer-range gunnery. Every combat round they attack in a similar manner. Otherwise they conduct themselves the same as LHTR.

    Naval Fighters
    Description: Representing carrier based torpedo-bombers and dive-bombers. ( use 1/600 scale planes for these)

    Cost: 8
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 2
    Move: 2

    Setup: Japan and USA each receive 2 naval fighters free, during the first round only. These are brought into play during the Mobilize New Units Phase on the respective powers´ turn.

    Special Abilities
    These units can only move from small islands or Carriers and can only attack other naval units. All attacks are preemptive rolls against defending warships prior to the start of the first combat round. After each successive round of combat this advantage is lost.


  • another idea that is for submarine combat:

    Submarine Combat:
    This form of combat is always performed separately from normal naval combat. During the active players phase, submarines can make attacks on naval units or economic attacks on an enemy’s convoy zone. When used against naval units they can be moved or simply activated from an enemy occupied sea zone and select a target of their choosing roll and hitting on a four or less. Attacking subs have a 1st shot “surprise attack” against naval units, unless defending Cruisers are present. Losses are applied immediately; so lost units do not get to shoot back. If any ships remain then a search roll may then be performed. Exception: After the first combat round each Cruiser or Destroyer class naval unit can “screen” out one ship of their choosing at a 1/1 basis so that the submarine hit goes against these units instead. Only when the “screening” ship(s) are sunk can the “protected” ship be targeted. Every defending Cruiser or Destroyer class unit is then assigned two rolls to perform a search of each submarine that is attacking with success on any roll of four or less. If they fail to locate the submarine, then the sub can then end combat and remain in the sea zone, or it can conduct another round of combat. If it tries to make a second attack the defending ships have an automatic search success (no roll is needed). They can all defend against the submarine(s) hitting at a 2 or less. This is known as Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW). No other types of ships can perform ASW rolls. Land or Carrier based planes cannot be involved in Anti- Submarine Warfare (ASW) except USA and UK starting from turn 4.
      Each roll is now done separately until the submarine is sighted. All additional rolls left for these ships can then go against attacking the submarines again hitting on a two or less. On turn 6 the USA and UK player has sufficient sonar capability, which modifies a hit to any roll of three or less. If the submarine is not sighted then another round of combat occurs until either all ships are sunk or either side withdraws from further combat (subs can remain in the sea zone while either side can also retreat to another sea zones).To find a sub that has not attacked, you must roll a 1. Normally a sub can be located by rolling a 2 or less.

    When the active player decides he wants to attack enemy submarines with ASW warfare, each Cruiser or Destroyer class ship  can each participate in a similar manner to above. No other types of ships can perform ASW. If these units fail to find the submarine, it simply remains in the sea zone. Each roll is now done separately until each submarine is sighted. Each plane then has two rolls each with a successful search result of four or less. Additional rolls are then applied as hits.To find a sub that has not attacked, you must roll a 1. Normally a sub can be located by rolling a 2 or less. Note: Bombers cannot actually attack enemy submarines but may be allocated to search for them.

    Submarine economic raids
    Submarines can also conduct attacks on a nation’s ability to wage war. These are done against enemy Convoy Zones or Industrial Complexes. If enemy units are eliminated or vacated from a Convoy Zone each Submarine can conduct economic attack with a roll of one D6 and applies the result as shown below. When conducting direct attacks on a nation’s economy each submarine adjacent to any coastal territory that contains an originally controlled Industrial Complex rolls one D6 and applies the effect as follows:

    1-2 = 1 IPC loss
    3-4 = 2 IPC loss
    5-6=3 IPC loss

    Note: if the convoy box contains units then they must be sunk or withdraw before an economic attack can occur. All loses are subtracted from that nations current economic totals.

    The specified turns apply for a timescale that currently is not installed in revised… it may have to be considered. The main point is to seperate subs from normal naval combat… subs were not involved against each other in battle and battles in revised often use these units for fodder as if they are part of the battle… they must have a seperate track… This is a reformulated version of larry’s idea with some modifications for simplicity…


  • I have to reread your sub reals a few more times. I’m pretty sure I got most of it, but it seems more in depth than I think it needs to be. Nothing in the box rules is that in depth, and I think that’s because it’s geared more for a wider audience. We should shoot for the same IMHO.

    I have some sub ideas but I’ll wait to post them until they are more finalized and I’ve gone over your ideas again.


  • Yes but the overall idea is subs are seperate from surface naval combat… if subs are present a seperate combat occurs before regular combat occurs… subs/ transports in his way are seperated from being fodder and involved with naval combat.


  • Ok whatever we can come up with that does the following:

    1. demonstate the effectiveness of cruisers against naval air combat
    2. correctly formulate accurate rules for ASW warfare
    3. get the U-boat campaign an active part of the game
    4. demonstate the superiority of battleships in surface combat ( long range guns destroying targets before they themselves get in range)
    5. fix rules for transposts, subs and the interaction of air units over oceans
    6. have some rule for sighting “surface ships” so players can have the “sink the bismarck” types of engagements. I hate the idea of automatic combat on sea… ships should have to locate the other/ and also evade should be possible for defenders.
    7. on invasions too much bombarding is going on… if two infantry dies thats like 6 divisions being drstroyed just because of a destroyer.

  • I believe I already have some fixes for a few of those points you brought up. I’ll work on integrating them with the other points you broght up. First, I need help understanding what you mean and what you want to represent historically;

    1. correctly formulate accurate rules for ASW warfare…… Exactly what forms of ASW need to/should be included?

    2. fix rules for transposts, subs and the interaction of air units over oceans… Specifically, what needs to be fixed? Just that subs and transports don’t participate in surface combat? Should we have it so those units don’t participate at all? Specifically, how should fighters/bombers interact with naval units? How strong should fighters be… as strong as destroyers?

    Should we have it fighter pieces don’t land on carrier pieces? Instead we have carrier piece represents the carrier and fighters… that way we don’t have fighters constantly leaving the carrier, going on land and back again… The fighter piece would represent land based fighters that cannot particpate in naval combat? Should fighter units also represent dive bombers so they can attack land units or have it so fighter units can only attack other air units and can’t hit ground troops? Should the bomber unit represent area bombers (larger bombers than dive bombers)?

    How whould you change this? Unit on the board and what that unit represents (the unit=a model to repreent the following real units):

    carrier unit= carrier+dive bombers+torpedo bombers (if only bombers represented then carrier units can’t attack air units. Include fighter planes in the carrier unit description so carrier can hit air units?)

    destroyer unit= destroyers+frigates+cruisers?

    fighter unit= land based fighters only? Include land based dive bombers too or have these go into the bomber unit? Should fighter units be able to hit naval units?

    bomber unit= area bombers only? Include dive bombers so as to hit specific units?


  • I’m still in the process of comming up with some naval rules. I think you’ll be impressed with them. While I was thinking of the problem I came up with yet another question that I want you to answer… why can’t transports be involved in surface combat? Weren’t transports sailing with the rest of the fleet and thus could also be attacked?


  • I reply to the easy question first:

    I’m still in the process of comming up with some naval rules. I think you’ll be impressed with them. While I was thinking of the problem I came up with yet another question that I want you to answer… why can’t transports be involved in surface combat? Weren’t transports sailing with the rest of the fleet and thus could also be attacked?

    Transports sailed seperately in convoys to ferry materials across oceans and were protected by small naval units such as destroyer or destroyer escorts…When a “battlefleet sailed” to conduct a direct attack on another enemy surface fleet this battles goal was to sink the opposing fleet and “those poor little transports” had no place in such a mission. However, since transports are “doubled” as landing craft (LST) and can be used as an invasion force with fully loaded troops… then the value of their protection by larger class vessels should accompany them only to the drop off point…
        In terms of any sence of realism, a group of trannies that have no supporting vessels should be able to be destroyed by only one destroyer ( representing a group of 30 such vessels)… perhaps against subs they should have a defense of “one”, but their is not way in hell say a battleship should be able to take a hit from them… Thats another reason why they and subs should be a seperate combat situation… Having a fleet of unloaded trannies taking your enemies battleship hits instead of what the battleship is shooting at ( another battleship or cruiser probably) makes no sence IMO.

    Perhaps one solution is to basically “pair” off each ship with another in a sort of duel once one of these ships is sunk, the victor can go after another ship…?


    1. correctly formulate accurate rules for ASW warfare…… Exactly what forms of ASW need to/should be included?

    2. fix rules for transposts, subs and the interaction of air units over oceans… Specifically, what needs to be fixed? Just that subs and transports don’t participate in surface combat? Should we have it so those units don’t participate at all? Specifically, how should fighters/bombers interact with naval units? How strong should fighters be… as strong as destroyers?

    +++++++=

    Should we have it fighter pieces don’t land on carrier pieces? Instead we have carrier piece represents the carrier and fighters… that way we don’t have fighters constantly leaving the carrier, going on land and back again… The fighter piece would represent land based fighters that cannot particpate in naval combat? Should fighter units also represent dive bombers so they can attack land units or have it so fighter units can only attack other air units and can’t hit ground troops? Should the bomber unit represent area bombers (larger bombers than dive bombers)?

    +++++ my idea for that is too advanced…and those posted naval rules mainly have any value in practicallity in respect to the sub rules. I would like to see a cheaper plane that only fights at sea…so no land based planes on carriers… you just buy these cheap 2/2/8 planes… i really hate the idea that your carrier planes attack somebody on the oceans and fly to get into a land battle the next turn … yikes! WTF is that???

    Take that naval rule concept with a grain of salt…what we have to create is something much more simple that will be playable and not to far from the tree of ideas.

    How whould you change this? Unit on the board and what that unit represents (the unit=a model to repreent the following real units):

    carrier unit= carrier+dive bombers+torpedo bombers (if only bombers represented then carrier units can’t attack air units. Include fighter planes in the carrier unit description so carrier can hit air units?)

    ++++++a carrier (CV) is only that… about 3-5 carriers in reality.

    fighter unit= land based fighters only? yes, but perhaps we can use the 2nd edition piece for “naval fighters”

    Include land based dive bombers too or have these go into the bomber unit?
    ++++ not sure…probably its too much complexity for this… we cant scare off the players!

    I think only the following planes:

    1. land based fighter
    2. naval based planes
    3. bombers

    Should fighter units be able to hit naval units?
    ++++ land based planes should not be able to travel over water unless its a coastal territory, so yes and no

    bomber unit= area bombers only? Include dive bombers so as to hit specific units?

    I love to do this… what is your opinion?  perhaps grant land based planes a bonus if attacking ground units w/o air support?


  • See I was thinking of transport units not including convoys.

    transport unit= military transports only?

    I thought merchant marines would be represented separately. Military transports traveled with military escorts, esp. during amphibious assaults, which is pretty much the only thing transport units do anyway. That’s why I think it would be simpler and more realistic if we said transport units are just military transports.

    I was thinking of having land based fighter units= fighters+dive bombers and allowing them to attack SZs immediately adjacent to the territory they came from (they can only flyover 1 SZ maybe?)

    bomber unit= area bombers…… this means they don’t attack specific units.

    do we need carrier based fighter/dive bomber units as separate units from carrier units? Can’t they all be represented by that carrier looking unit? I think this is the simplest way to do it cause it’s not like carrier based fighters are going to fly out 1 full SZ away from their respective carrier anyway. 1 SZ is like 1/3rd across the Atlantic, how realistic is it to have a carrier fighter to fly that far away. So if it’s the case that carriers and those carrier based fighters will never be in separate SZs, let’s just have them represented by that same unit. Opinions?


  • See I was thinking of transport units not including convoys.

    transport unit= military transports only?

    +++++++ yes but if we have any lend lease rules then they are really representing the following: 1) “liberty ships” and 2) landing barges

    I thought merchant marines would be represented separately. Military transports traveled with military escorts, esp. during amphibious assaults, which is pretty much the only thing transport units do anyway. That’s why I think it would be simpler and more realistic if we said transport units are just military transports.

    ++++++WE could call them military transports… but thats not in the lexicon of military nomenclature…When they transport infantry to say UK… they are also bringing supplies to help england… “military transports” seems to limit the name, while just “transports” is more general…whats more important is what they do in the game.

    Attack 0, defense 1, moves 2 costs 8?

    I was thinking of having land based fighter units= fighters+dive bombers and allowing them to attack SZs immediately adjacent to the territory they came from (they can only flyover 1 SZ maybe?)

    They (land based planes) should be able to attack only the SZ adjacent to a major land territory, all islands “inside” a SZ and naval battles should be settled with some cheaper naval fighter. yes

    bomber unit= area bombers… this means they don’t attack specific units.

    ++++Right! they are saturation bombing level bombers… they dont swoop down and attack targeted enemy units like dive bombers and fighters do.

    do we need carrier based fighter/dive bomber units as separate units from carrier units?

    +++++++WE definatly need land based  and naval based planes as seperate… again i dont think people are ready for torpedo bombers and dive bombers but it would be nice…

    Can’t they all be represented by that carrier looking unit?

    +++++Yea sure… we can abstract them INTO THE CARRIERS as the airstrike capability… this is a good idea and is done in many other wargames… Will people go for this or do they want to have to buy seperate planes for this function? that is the question…

    I think this is the simplest way to do it cause it’s not like carrier based fighters are going to fly out 1 full SZ away from their respective carrier anyway. 1 SZ is like 1/3rd across the Atlantic, how realistic is it to have a carrier fighter to fly that far away. So if it’s the case that carriers and those carrier based fighters will never be in separate SZs, let’s just have them represented by that same unit. Opinions?

    Well under the original post… those carriers have a certain number of planes which are assigned different functions ( torpedo, dive, fighter (for CAP) )  we can use this idea. to represent a number of planes and i can create a player aid so you put the pieces into some box which effect how they interact… This would remove the need to have different pieces.

    I think we need to have Mr. Andersson chime in soon with some ideas…

    I think you should come up finishing your version for naval combat… and ill work on land combat…

    Italy? what thoughts do you have on this?  Was thinking of this: ( note this is just a starting point)

    Italy is a new nation ( the 6th player)

    All German units located in Southern Europe, Balkans and Libya is now considered Italian and those territories can be used to purchase only Italian units (light Grey). That gives them a starting IPC value of 10. When choosing NA’s the Italian player can pick 4 NA’s that only affect these units. The Italian player plays following Germany’s turn. The territory of Germany itself has a new value of 20 so their income is not affected.

    Lend lease payments
    The US player receives 10 extra IPC per turn that can only be sent to either UK or the Soviet Union to represent lend-lease payments during the war. They can also be saved and sent on a latter turn. However, these must be carried on a transport and sent to sea-zone 4 or 34. Up to 10 points of lend lease can be carried on a single transport. This process can be intercepted be any axis player (who has units in range) and the transport (along with its lend lease cargo) can be sunk.


  • I’ll probably get to a point that I can post some stuff on the naval combat soon.

    As for Italy…. IDEA #1:  I know having that third Axis nation is important but listen to this logic. Now that all Axis conduct their turn together and all Allies conduct their turn together, it really doesn’t matter that much what color the units are, right? What I mean is, what’s really the difference now between German units and Japanese units? Both attack the same and at the same time, defend the same and at the same time, move the same and at the same time, etc… Basically, I can’t see a practical difference anymore now that each side is moving together. I’m not advocating having all Axis units looking the same, just that how about we have Italian and German units look the same (i.e. how they are represented in the box rules)? Maybe we should just tell people grey units represent Germany and Italy.

    I’ll just throw this idea out there. I’m not saying I necessary like it better than all Axis move and all Allies move (2 turns per round) but I think it’s worth throwing out there to think about… IDEA #2:  What if grey=Western Axis and orange=Japan and green=Western Allies and red=Russia. Both sides have only 2 nations and now it’s a 4 nation game instead of 5. The advantage of this is then we still get an even number on each side and shorten the game since 4 turns per round is less than 5. Also, now that we are back to only 1 color of units going at any 1 time, we can have the Western Allies always fight together but not with Russia (realistic) and Germany/Italy fight together but not with Japan (also realistic).

    For realism, we could set up economic restrictions so UK doesn’t have full access to the entire US economy (that shouldn’t be too hard). Likewise, Italy won’t have full access to the entire German economy (unlike now). So economy would be separate (maybe not totally separate) but movement and pieces would be the same. It’s like having 6 nations but in a way only 4 so we get simplicity, fair numbers, sped up game and realism. I know it might be a radical idea but we might be on to something here. Is this idea worth pursuing further? Thoughts?


  • As for Italy…. IDEA #1:  I know having that third Axis nation is important but listen to this logic. Now that all Axis conduct their turn together and all Allies conduct their turn together, it really doesn’t matter that much what color the units are, right? What I mean is, what’s really the difference now between German units and Japanese units? Both attack the same and at the same time, defend the same and at the same time, move the same and at the same time, etc… Basically, I can’t see a practical difference anymore now that each side is moving together. I’m not advocating having all Axis units looking the same, just that how about we have Italian and German units look the same (i.e. how they are represented in the box rules)? Maybe we should just tell people grey units represent Germany and Italy.

    ++++++I can see what your saying, but i was thinking of adding something to having Italy:

    1. giving the United States  true lend lease money that can goto england/ Russia  and be intercepted by German u-boat campaign… so we get some “Atlantic wolf pack” thing going… typically germany just abandons this idea in revised, because of her concerns with Russia… she does not have any money to fight UK on the sea.

    2. Having Italy would be great for having a rookie player who may not know how to play to well… they would have limited resources to “screw the game up”  but at least they would have their own NA’s… They would have to help germany to win…Another idea was to even out the players in 2 teams of 3 players each.

    3. as you know the total income that germany gets in increased the same value as the allies receive in lend lease… so germany does not lose any money and Italy is free to come outside the shadow of her larger partner…

    4. Id like to see Italy in the game because it has not been tried yet with revised (board game version)… of course they have the “pact of steel” scenario over at tripleA for Italy as a new nation.

    I’ll just throw this idea out there. I’m not saying I necessary like it better than all Axis move and all Allies move (2 turns per round) but I think it’s worth throwing out there to think about… IDEA #2:  What if grey=Western Axis and orange=Japan and green=Western Allies and red=Russia. Both sides have only 2 nations and now it’s a 4 nation game instead of 5. The advantage of this is then we still get an even number on each side and shorten the game since 4 turns per round is less than 5. Also, now that we are back to only 1 color of units going at any 1 time, we can have the Western Allies always fight together but not with Russia (realistic) and Germany/Italy fight together but not with Japan (also realistic).

    ++++++++i like this idea to separate Russia from the allies, because they didn’t really coordinate their military campaign with the allies, (rather the allies followed the Soviet lead with their own plans) … This was the case at Salerno, Italy was invaded just a week after Kursk started…I think your plan can work…but what is the disadvantage with having them all take their turns together?  Moving a 5 turn game into a 4 turn game really does not save time? Having Japan and germany move at the same time but not conduct attacks together would be included, so since they cant attack together, then it does not matter that they move together, which historically they did not coordinate ideas… so moving together in this case would not run against history.  THe only idea behind the all allies all axis move was to save lots of time…I have played these games and it really cuts off the fat… I think perhaps this may work:

    1. germany italy
    2. Russia, Japan
    3. UK and USA, China

    the reason is another problem is the game is won when usually Japan is half way into russia… which Japan decided not to attack russia and instead attack US… it was really an either or/type of thing… Japan had no interest in a russian campaign. She clearly was not making a pact with russia for any reason other than to free her against a general war with the united states… The victory conditions for the axis should not have to reflect the need for some major co-axis campaign against russia…
    One reason is because it did not occur.

    For realism, we could set up economic restrictions so UK doesn’t have full access to the entire US economy…

    They should not have access unless its in the form of lend lease… they should definatly allocate spending seperately.


  • There’s one thing here that doesn’t sit well with me… If we are using a new map then I don’t think we can call it Axis and Allies Revised something or other. Axis and Allies is different from Axis and Allies Revised because it uses a new map and new rules. This means what we’re designing would be as far from Axis and Allies Revised and the 2nd Edition is from it. If we have a new then we should drop the Revised part out of whatever title we use for it.

    Second issue is I want to back up and look at the bigger picture here for a second. I was thinking of this project kind of like LHTR is to Axis and Allies Revised. LHTR uses the same map and has a very short list of total changes that LH believes makes the game a lot better. LHTR is only a few pages long; it’s not that many new rules. What this is turning into is Axis and Allies Advanced. With all the changes we are making now this list of rules is going to be a ton longer than LHTR and use a completely new map. How about we work on 2 different projects together: 1) Our version of LHTR but for realism and 2) Axis and Allies Revised? We can work on the ‘realistic LHTR’ over here and I’ll join your group at Larry’s site for the Advanced version with added units/separate Italian player/better map etc…

    I was thinking of our realistic LHTR, for lack of a better term as of right now, as fixing the following problems that must be fixed:
    -historical accuracy of certain nations taking certain parts of the world (example: Japan easily taking over Asia)… this problem fixed with Victory City House Rules
    -game balance
    -sub interdiction/ lend lease
    -air unit movement
    -strategic bombing/interceptors+escorts
    -realism of naval battles
    -techs
    -NAs
    -game duration

    I think we can fix all those above problems with a list of changes not much longer than LHTR. I don’t think adding Italy and changing the map can really fit into something like LHTR. We should hold off on these latter problems until Axis and Allies Advanced. Opinions? You want to do both projects?


  • There’s one thing here that doesn’t sit well with me… If we are using a new map then I don’t think we can call it Axis and Allies Revised something or other. Axis and Allies is different from Axis and Allies Revised because it uses a new map and new rules. This means what we’re designing would be as far from Axis and Allies Revised and the 2nd Edition is from it. If we have a new then we should drop the Revised part out of whatever title we use for it.

    Yes i never thought of that… its important to make that distinction… We can figure out what to call it latter… I just “winged it” on the treads title… whatever you come up with is fine.

    Second issue is I want to back up and look at the bigger picture here for a second. I was thinking of this project kind of like LHTR is to Axis and Allies Revised. LHTR uses the same map and has a very short list of total changes that LH believes makes the game a lot better. LHTR is only a few pages long; it’s not that many new rules. What this is turning into is Axis and Allies Advanced. With all the changes we are making now this list of rules is going to be a ton longer than LHTR and use a completely new map. How about we work on 2 different projects together: 1) Our version of LHTR but for realism and 2) Axis and Allies Revised? We can work on the ‘realistic LHTR’ over here and I’ll join your group at Larry’s site for the Advanced version with added units/separate Italian player/better map etc…

    I think we are accomplishing something that in effect "removes the totally ahistorical elements from any of the “original revised rules” in as much a a simple form as possible… something like “use LHTR as the basic rules except delete sections 2.1,3.5, and 4.7” and replace sections 2.1, 3.5 etc with the following new rules…

    I was thinking of our realistic LHTR, for lack of a better term as of right now, as fixing the following problems that must be fixed:
    -historical accuracy of certain nations taking certain parts of the world (example: Japan easily taking over Asia)… this problem fixed with Victory City House Rules
    -game balance
    -sub interdiction/ lend lease
    -air unit movement
    -strategic bombing/interceptors+escorts
    -realism of naval battles
    -techs
    -NAs
    -game duration

    I fully agree with this purpose… but can we do the Italy thing as only a optional rule?.. a just in case 6 people want to play then try this…?

    I think we can fix all those above problems with a list of changes not much longer than LHTR. I don’t think adding Italy and changing the map can really fit into something like LHTR. We should hold off on these latter problems until Axis and Allies Advanced. Opinions? You want to do both projects?

    Axis and allies advanced is a totally unique concept… what id really like to see is to use as many ideas from it as possible so as to provide a “primer” for what is to come… for many of these ideas have allready been laid down into the foundation of what AAA will become… Our varient will “test the waters” with the general public on what they will eventually have to accept… because I can tell you that a evolution in these games is coming and the old system is showing major signs of wear IMO. Its time for change for a more realistic option for this game… I want us and others who play this varient to be on the first train to this new tomorrow…so consider our team the cutting edge of these new ideas.

    Im working on a new combat system and will get it out in a day or so.

    WE still need Mr. Andersson to chime in our group… hes kinda here one second and gone the next.


  • How again would adding Italy improve the Axis’ chances of winning? Does it? Both Germany and Italy are strongest when they have total freedom to share all resources (IPCs) and attack together. If we add room for a sixth player all we’re doing is weakening what Germany used to be by splitting their economy in 2 and giving them less freedom. Also, if we’re giving every nation special units and 6 NAs, what would they be for the Italians. I’m having trouble comming up with 2 NAs for them, let alone 6. Did the Italians have any elite special units?

    I love the idea of adding Italy for a completely new restructured game, like what Advanced will be. I’ve thought about the Italy problem for years now and I don’t think it’s an easy enough fix to practically be able to add them in this project. You are more than welcome to propose your way of adding Italy but as of right now, with the ideas presently so far on it, I have to vote against it.

    This is how I think we should present our project:

    Standard Rule Changes Section 1
    Fix these issues:
    -historical accuracy of certain nations taking certain parts of the world (example: Japan easily taking over Asia)… this problem fixed with Victory City House Rules
    -game balance
    -sub interdiction/ lend lease
    -air unit movement
    -strategic bombing/interceptors+escorts
    -realism of naval battles
    -techs
    -NAs
    -game duration

    Optional Rule changes Section 2
    Fix these issues:
    -Add elite units (1 per nation)
    -Add new map? (I still have to look at your map to see if we really need a new map. I have a few ideas of my own on how to change the map.)
    -maybe move techs and NAs down to this section?


  • OK … i guess ill wait on Italy to come out in “Advanced”… I think i covered Italy in a manner that does not detract from Germany, because Germany now gets 10 bucks more each turn, while Italy gets its own 10 IPC and the allies get 10 IPC in lend lease… how it helps the axis is twofold:

    1. Italy is closer to the center of the action… so that 10 bucks is created in the center of Europe, while the allies money has to travel across the oceans and be subject to “interdiction” that also helps solve the historical problem of lend lease and German u-boat campaign

    and,

    1. I have some NA’s for Italy which im posting here:

    Italy National Advantages:

    1. Piggyback Tech: On the turn after Germany obtains a given technology, Italy gets it also (if Germany gets Heavy Bombers in G2, Italy has it in I3).

    2. Mediterranean Express: allows Italy to move 1 infantry to Libya during non-combat movement.

    3. Desert Tracks: Allow Italian armor to move through Sahara. They must both enter and leave Sahara in same turn and cannot retreat into this territory. (Any Italy units in Sahara at end of Italy’s turn die).

    4. Afrika Corps: Allow any German units sent to Africa to become Italian upon landing, and be immediately usable by Italy.

    5. Untrained Forces: The first time Italian forces meet a given Allied nation in battle, the Italians choose the order of loss for the Allied forces (this is designed to foster a “Kasserine” style result in Italy’s first encounters with enemy forces).

    6. Axis Pact: Allows any German forces that end their turn in an Italian held territory to be used by Italy in THEIR attack, even if the German forces were used during Germany’s turn. Aircraft so used MUST return to the there starting point (where they were when Germany ended their turn) at the end of battle. All such forces revert to German control at the end of Italy’s turn.

    7. Frogmen: Would allow 1 infantry to attack 1 Allied naval unit that is adjacent to an Italian held territory-containing infantry (Italy specifies targets). Infantry rolls normal attack (1 in 6) and if successful sinks 1 allied ship. Such attack precedes normal attack round. Failure is loss of Italy infantry.

    I will acquiesce to leave Italy out of the game if you feel strongly about it.


  • -Add elite units (1 per nation)
    -Add new map? (I still have to look at your map to see if we really need a new map. I have a few ideas of my own on how to change the map.)
    -maybe move techs and NAs down to this section?

    Yes this need to be done! Any changes on the map can be made easily.


  • Land Combat Sequence:

    1. Any attacking artillery units fire first preemptively on the first round. Note: artillery units can also make a special attack that does not require that they move into the territory as follows: They may fire one “salvo” from a territory they reside and across it into an enemy territory for one round only. This attack is considered preemptive and the defender cannot roll in its defense.If they decide to attack in conjunction with other attacking units than multiple rounds of combat are permitted. During each  subsequent combat round they fire in simultaneous fashion. Any ground forces hit as a result of artillery bombardment attack are now removed from play.

    2. If the attacker has brought in air units, then they must engage defending air units separately each combat round until only one side has any air units left. This can be accomplished by one side destroying the enemy or retreating their own air units. During each round where ground combat continues and only one side has air units, those remaining air forces can attack ground forces with preemptive rolls each combat round. Land units cannot attack planes in any manner, except in territories that contain a Industrial Complex ( this would be rolled before the start of the first combat round).All ground forces hit as a result of aerial attack are now removed from play.

    3. After each round the attacker followed by the defender rolls for each engaged ground unit trying to hit at or lower than its attack factor. Each hit caused by an Infantry unit can only be applied to an infantry unit, while armor unit hits must be applied to any defending armor units first before any other unit can be selected as a causality.Armor units include artillery types of units.

    4. The defender then rolls for his defending units including those selected as causalities again trying to roll at or lower than each units defense value. The attacker must remove loses in the same manner as required by the defender.

    5. The attacker followed by the defender can make retreat declarations. Retreats can be in full or partial and only the currently engaged units are able to roll dice. If the defender has decided to retreat and leave behind a “rearguard” force only those ground forces are then able to fire in defense. If the attacker scores additional hits beyond what the defender has allocated for this purpose, then those retreating forces may have to absorb additional hits as required.

    6. If the defender is either destroyed or retreats, then the attacker automatically occupies the territory and a control marker is placed in the territory.


  • Here would be a decent starting point for NA’s:

    Soviet Union National Advantages

    1. Russian Winter
    Russia’s greatest ally was its winter cold. Germany’s invasion stopped dead as the snows came down.
    Once during the game in your collect income phase, you can declare a severe winter. Until the start of your next turn, your infantry in red territories defend on a 3.

    2. Non-aggression Treaty
    The Japanese refrained from attacking the Soviet Union during most of the war. They already had one bear coming at them from the east.
    The first time in the game that the Japanese forces attack any red territory, you may place four of your infantry for free in that territory before resolving combat. If Japan attacks more than one red territory in that turn, you may decide which such territory receives the infantry. If you attack an orange territory before Japan attacks you, you lose this national advantage.

    3. Mobile Industry
    In response to the threat from the Russian front, the Soviets moved their factories east. They produced 5,000 tanks east of the Urals in 1942.
    Your industrial complexes each may move 1 territory during your non combat move phase. It may be used in the same turn to place units (up to a maximum of the new territory’s value). They cannot move during the combat move phase. If an opponent captures them, that opponent cannot move them. You may mobilize at a complex if you controlled both the industrial complex and it’s new territory at the start of your turn.

    4. Conscripts (replace Salvage)
    The Red Army won many battles with their raw manpower, by using untrained infantry and many times unequipped.
    During your mobilize new units phase, you may place one of your infantry for free in any red territory if you control it. This free unit is in addition to the group of units you just purchased.

    5. Katyusha Rockets (replace Lend-Lease)
    The Soviets were able to supplement the artillery with massed batteries of rocket launchers. The sheer volume of fire more than compensated for individual lack of accuracy.
    Your artillery attacks on a 3, for the first combat cycle only.

    6. Trans-Siberian Railway
    The Trans-Siberian Railway spanned 10,000 kilometers from Moscow to Vladivostok, the longest main line in the world.
    In the non combat move phase, your infantry, antiaircraft guns, and artillery may move 2 territories per turn only among these territories: Russia, Novosibirsk, Yakut S.S.R., and Buryatia S.S.R.

    7. Russian T-34’s
    Your ARM in red territories defends on a 4.

    8. Lend-Lease
    During your Mobilize Units phase, you can convert up to 12IPC worth of Allied units into Soviet units if they are in a red territory. These may be land or air units. Remove the affected units from play and replace them with the same units of your own color.
    -When declared, place 1 free INF in any Red territory you control, during the Mobilize Units phase of this turn only.

    Germany National Advantages

    1. U-Boat Interdiction (revised)
    Determined to undermine the Allies’ supply chain, Germany eventually endorsed a program of shipbuilding. As a result a fleet of U-boats were built in an attempt to starve Britain.
    The U.K and U.S. players are susceptible to supply line interdiction by German submarines. This rule implies that your submarines may conduct an economic attack against the supply lines (sea zones) adjacent to any of these nations industrial complex to “sink” IPC’s. On the U.K and U.S. players collect income phase, the player must subtract 2 IPC’s to the bank for each German submarine within 1 sea zone of an industrial complex controlled by respective nation. For each German submarine within 2 sea zones of an industrial complex, the player must subtract 1 IPC. Any submarine that became submerged during the subjected players turns conduct combat phase, does not cause any economic loss. Multiple submarines may affect a single industrial complex, but the maximum combined loss can be no more than the territory’s (containing the industrial complex) income value. An individual submarine may only affect one industrial complex during each turn, but can affect multiple industrial complexes each round (i.e. one industrial complex per player).

    2. Atlantic Wall
    The Germans fortified the European Atlantic coast with massive defensive systems from Norway to Spain.
    During any amphibious assault against a gray territory, all your infantry defend on a 3 during the first cycle of combat.

    3. Panzer grenadiers (replace Panzer blitz)
    During World War II, the Germans had troops that were designed for fighting alongside tanks. These were fully motorized units, so that they could at all times keep up with the tanks.
    Each of your tanks gives one matching infantry one additional movement allowance. The tank and the infantry unit must leave from the same territory.

    4. Tiger Tank Battalions
    The massively powerful Tiger tanks were assigned to heavy tank battalions to support other units for special operations, to be deployed en masse for decisive shock action.
    You may build three tank units as Tiger tanks, but only one per turn. A Tiger tank attack and defends on a 4 or less. Each Tiger tank costs 6 IPC’s and may be rebuilt if destroyed. Tigers have a movement capability of 2, but cannot blitz as regular tanks.

    5. Blitzkrieg (replace Luftwaffe Dive-Bombers)
    German warfare combined the use of mobile units with the close support of airpower into a steel juggernaut emphasize speedy movement and maximization of battlefield opportunities.
    When a fighter attacks along with a tank, their attack increases to 4 respectively. This pairing is on a one-to-one basis. The increased attack ability is for the first cycle of combat only and is cancelled if defending fighters are present.

    6. Fortress Europe
    By protecting the Third Reich on all sides, Germany built fortified defensive lines and established strongpoint on key terrain in Europe.
    Your artillery in gray territories defends on a 3.

    7. German 88’s
    During the first cycle of combat only, on Attack and Defense, your artillery fire in the Conduct Opening Fire phase (instead of the Attacking Units fire and Defending Units fire phases respectively). Casualties are removed immediately.
    -When declared, place 2 free artillery in any Gray territory you control, during the Mobilize Units phase of this turn only.

    8. Panzer blitz
    If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving armor may move 1 territory during non-combat movement.

    9. Afrika Corps
    Place 1 infantry, 1 artillery, and 1 Armor for free in Libya if you control it, during the Mobilize Units phase of this turn only. *1 free infantry is also placed as soon as you declare this NA at the start of your turn that are allowed to be used this turn as regular infantry.

    10. Wolf Packs
    Your submarines attack on a 3 (4 with Super Subs) if there are at least two of them at the start of the combat cycle. When there are less than two submarines at the start of a combat cycle, this ability is lost. Wolf Packs do not improve defending submarines. Enemy destroyers do not affect this NA. The submarines may come from different sea zones, but must attack the same sea zone. For Convoy Raids, when there are at least two German submarines in the same sea zone (which didn’t submerge during this turn’s Conduct Combat Phase), and they are within 2 sea zones of the enemy IC, the enemy subtracts an additional 1IPC from their collected income. If the groups of at least two Subs are within one sea zone of the enemy IC, the enemy subtracts an additional 2 ipc from their collected income.
    -When declared, place 1 free SUB in either sea zone 5 or sea zone 14 during the Mobilize Units phase of this turn only. You may place the submarine even if the sea zone is enemy-occupied.
    -Submarines now cost 1IPC less.

    11. Luftwaffe Dive-Bombers
    During the first cycle of combat, if there are no defending fighters present, your fighters hit on a roll of 4 or less. In succeeding cycles of combat, the fighters hit normally. If defending fighters are present, this ability is cancelled. This NA applies to both Land and Naval Combat. Your fighters are still subject to any AA Fire. In addition, your first FTR purchased costs 5IPC less. All other purchased fighters are normal cost.

    Italy National Advantages

    1. Piggyback Tech: On the turn after Germany obtains a given technology, Italy gets it also (if Germany gets Heavy Bombers in G2, Italy has it in I3).

    2. Mediterranean Express: allows Italy to move 1 infantry to Libya during non-combat movement.

    3. Desert Tracks: Allow Italian armor to move through Sahara. They must both enter and leave Sahara in same turn and cannot retreat into this territory. (Any Italy units in Sahara at end of Italy’s turn die).

    4. Afrika Corps: Allow any German units sent to Africa to become Italian upon landing, and be immediately usable by Italy.

    5. Untrained Forces: The first time Italian forces meet a given Allied nation in battle, the Italians choose the order of loss for the Allied forces (this is designed to foster a “Kasserine” style result in Italy’s first encounters with enemy forces).

    6. Axis Pact: Allows any German forces that end their turn in an Italian held territory to be used by Italy in THEIR attack, even if the German forces were used during Germany’s turn. Aircraft so used MUST return to the there starting point (where they were when Germany ended their turn) at the end of battle. All such forces revert to German control at the end of Italy’s turn.

    7. Frogmen: Would allow 1 infantry to attack 1 Allied naval unit that is adjacent to an Italian held territory-containing infantry (Italy specifies targets). Infantry rolls normal attack (1 in 6) and if successful sinks 1 allied ship. Such attack precedes normal attack round. Failure is loss of Italy infantry.

    United Kingdom National Advantages

    1. Radar
    Britain’s radar alerted it to the threat of German planes crossing the channel.
    UK owned antiaircraft guns in tan territories hit air units on a roll of 1 or 2.

    2. Joint Strike
    The most powerful strike in the war was the joint Allied assault on Normandy. The planning required to launch this simultaneous invasion has never been equaled.
    Once during the game at the start of a round (before the Russian turn), you may declare a joint strike. That round, you complete your turn as normal, except you must skip combat move, conduct combat, and non combat move phases. On those phases of the U.S. turn, the U.S. player uses your units in his or her combat move; conduct combat, and non-combat move phases together with his own units. You and the U.S. player must agree on attacking casualties, or the opposing player gets to choose them. Antiaircraft fire is rolled separately against each nationality of air units; all anti-U.K. dice are rolled before any anti-U.S. die is rolled. Weapons developments or national advantages still only apply to the units of the power that gained the development or has the advantage. A joint strike may not be called off once it is declared.

    3. Enigma Decoded
    Working in a secret facility in Bletchley Park, Alan Turing’s cryptographers broke the codes of the Nazi Enigma machines. They could then send false messages back.
    Once per game, when Germany finishes its combat move phase, but before its conduct combat phase, you may make one special move. You may move any number of your units from any one adjacent space into one friendly sea zone being attacked by Germany (Germany moving sea units to an empty sea zone does not count). Alternatively, you may move any number of your units from a sea zone being attacked by Germany into an adjacent friendly space, but you must leave at least one of your units behind. This special move otherwise follows the rules for a non-combat move. If your units survive, they remain in the space to which they were moved.

    4. Commonwealth Troops (replace Mideast Oil)
    The British Commonwealth Troops served in all theatres in World War II - from Europe to North Africa to South-East Asia.
    During your mobilize new units phase, you may place one of your infantry for free in any tan territory with an income value higher than 1 IPC if you control it. If the territory contains an industrial complex, you can mobilize no more units than the income value of that territory.

    5. French Resistance
    France fell quickly to the Germans. Thousands of French patriots who would otherwise have died in battle on the frontlines later rose up against the occupiers.
    Once per game, if the Allies control Western Europe, you may place three of your infantry there for free during the mobilize new units phase of your turn.

    6. Colonial Garrison
    World War II represents the height of the United Kingdom’s colonial empire. Two decades later the Commonwealth was a shadow of its world-spanning former self.
    You begin the game with one additional industrial complex in any tan territory with an income value of at least 1. (You still can’t have more than one industrial complex in a territory.)

    7. The Royal Navy
    Place 1 free Destroyer off the coast of Eastern Canada, Egypt, South Africa, India, Australia or UK if you own the land territory, during the Mobilize Units Phase of this turn only. You may place the destroyer even if the sea zone is enemy-occupied.
    -Your destroyers cost 1IPC less.

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