G2 Barbarossa idea too good to be true?

[BluGerman]

Uncrustable Thank you once more for answers and ideas :)

[Shaniana]

@Uncrustable:

And you really need an aircraft carrier. Just think for 16 IPC you can get 3 units (2 fighters) into the water with a total defensive value of 10!

But aren’t these 10 defensive point and the 16 PC just idling, doing nothing but fishing, if he DOW Russia? When the US or UK fleet comes at last, it will be too big for that one carrier anyway…

[Derek]

@Shaniana:

@Uncrustable:

And you really need an aircraft carrier. Just think for 16 IPC you can get 3 units (2 fighters) into the water with a total defensive value of 10!

But aren’t these 10 defensive point and the 16 PC just idling, doing nothing but fishing, if he DOW Russia? When the US or UK fleet comes at last, it will be too big for that one carrier anyway…

He wanted to feign sealion?

[JDOW]

@BluGerman:

France- attack with 3 tanks(Holland Belgium), 4 inf(3 from west Germany and 1 from Holland Belgium), 2 artillery(1 from west Germany and 1 from Holland Belgium), 2 fighters(West Germany), 2 tac bombers(West Germany), 1 strat bomber(1 from Germany)

Hey Sir,

this attack is not possible as part of a winning strategy.
10% chance of complete failure and the game is immediately over

Plus: You have a BIG chance to lose all ground except 1 tanks and several air in that attack. You need 98%, better 100% on that attack. Not only to win but to minimize the loss of ground units.

Except from that the whole G2 part cannot be planned in advance at all without knowing what the Allies did. Even if the Russian Cruiser could be killed by Italians, the Italian Air has other jobs to do IT1.

SO I am afraid the plan in the OP of that thread is not going to work at all.

Cheers,
Tobias

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Shaniana:

@Uncrustable:

And you really need an aircraft carrier. Just think for 16 IPC you can get 3 units (2 fighters) into the water with a total defensive value of 10!

But aren’t these 10 defensive point and the 16 PC just idling, doing nothing but fishing, if he DOW Russia? When the US or UK fleet comes at last, it will be too big for that one carrier anyway…

One of the main reasons why I personally don’t like a feign Sea-Lion. Buying ships and then go Barbarossa just makes the Russians smile, knowing they will survive. This downside is not outweighed by the 1 turn ‘panic reaction’ from the UK imho. A dedicated Barbarossa is far stronger.
Personally, I even prefer a ‘surprise’ Sea Lion to a feign!

Regarding A G2 DOW on Russia:
I strongly believe it is inferior to a G3 DOW, because the Russians can optimally strafe the invading German units, making it impossible for Germany to attack deeper into Russia G3. This effectively turns the G2 into a G3 with a worse unit composition and balance for Germany.

Or well, that is my Russian experience with a G2 DOW. I felt safer than with the G3 variant. Admitted, there was no German strafe in Yugoslavia (he just took it) but I doubt those 6/7 extra land units would have made a big difference. The Russians can still push the attack instead of strafing, making the east front a skirmish for its western border areas. This is ofc sub optimal for the Russians but still better than a straight G3!

It can be dangerous in combination with an invasion in northern Russia with the ‘feighning’ Kriegsmarine, but I have yet to see it working, since Russia can hold the Germans off with just conservative play, knowing Germany bought a lot of ships and is thus less dangerous on land. Not to mention that the German invaders are also at risk of becoming POW if they are too aggressive. Another big chunk out of the once mighty Wehrmacht!

My 2 cents of experience with being G2 DOWed  :-).

[Shaniana]

@ItIsILeClerc:

Regarding A G2 DOW on Russia:
I strongly believe it is inferior to a G3 DOW, because the Russians can optimally strafe the invading German units, making it impossible for Germany to attack deeper into Russia G3. This effectively turns the G2 into a G3 with a worse unit composition and balance for Germany.

Would you mind enlightening me on how this is done? If Germany moves all his tanks not needed in France in Round 1 and all his Marines adjacent to Poland into Poland in Turn 1, he can move a mighty force into the Baltic States in Turn 2. If I attack it for one or two battle rounds, he will lose marines, but I will lose even more Marines. Thus, on G3, he can (with the support of the Luftwaffe) press the Attack. I might kill some Tanks and some planes, but I’ll lose a great part of my own army, and the route to Moscow seems empty as the German Mech-Marines will arrive soon. What am I missing?

[ItIsILeClerc]

Oki doki, lets see what I can do  :-).

Germany can bring a maximum of 46 units into Eastern Poland if it does NOT attack France with any tanks/mech (using aircraft to kill it), does NOT take Yugoslavia and does NOT take Bulgaria.

Apart from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, I have to assume Germany is NOT doing this. Germany has to kill all of the RN around Britain and also must kill France or else the whole advantage of DOWing Russia G2 is lost (D-Day UK3 or even UK2). This means Germany needs 6 tanks and 4mech in France in order to send all its luftwaffe to kill the RN.
So Germany can march into Eastern Poland with 36 Units (incl. 3 tanks and 3 AAA), or, as you stated, 28 units into Baltic States. This means not attacking Yugoslavia and not aligning Bulgaria.

Russia on the other hand already has 33 units on the front. Assuming Russia is a bit alarmed by Germany massing at its borders with Russia G1 already, it can build 6 fast units in Leningrad/Ukraine to further this to 39 units.

Depending on positioning and on whether Germany did attack Yugoslavia/align Bulgaria, Russia should be able to press the attack into Eastern Poland and win, or strafe it, retreating into either Belarus or Western Ukraine (German reinforcements will only be able to attack into Eastern Poland so after your strafe you can only be attacked by German survivors + its Luftwaffe).
If Germany has moved into the Baltic States you can ignore him for now if you cannot field enough troops for the counter attack. The point is, if Germany does not want to loose a one turn tempo towards Moscow, it must move into Belarus G3 from there and your Russians can prepare an even better counterattack/strafe opportunity into that area.

The point is always, but even more so once Germany has lost a lot of infantry, its expensive tanks and mech can spearhead deep into Russia but this is disadvantageous for Germany if its tanks + mech end their movement next to big Russian inf stacks (Russia will just kill the spearhead in a -for Germany- very detrimental loss-rate). Russia should of course place its defending infantry and aircraft so, that the only option for Germany to blitz is non-existant or game-loosing at best. Let Germany blitz into the North if you must allow it a blitz-path, protecting Caucasus and Stalingrad which Germany needs badly for a chance to win. If Germany does not want to give up the chance to take Caucasus/Stalingrad, it has to come towards you 1 territory (in depth) at a time or face the methodical destruction of its mechanized forces.

Russia can afford quite a lot if it knows London will send a lot of aircraft into Russia UK4 or 5.

If your UK ‘friend’ is not so keen on aiding you… it is a different story entirely and you should start sweating  :lol:.

Well, that’s it, Shaniana. My own Russian experiences from the eastern front (ofc with my very co-operative UK-buddy, who once had 16 (!) UK FTR operating from Moscow), mixed with a little bit of predictive thinking (or some might call it wishful thinking hehheh) since I have not yet seen Germany DOW Russia G2 whilst skipping/strafing Yugoslavia and Bulgaria ;-).

[ItIsILeClerc]

I just realized I was stuck in my G1 artillery building a bit: Germany can build all fast units G1 in Berlin. Those can also enter Russia G2 changing the whole picture…

I guess this will mean no strafe/attack RU2. Maybe RU3 or RU4 or  the worst case scenario for Russia: not at all  :cry: (just the same as with a G3 DOW). It might just mean that everything in Russia happens 1 turn earlier.

My remarks for German spearheads getting destroyed remain the same even in this scenario. For both Russia and Germany this looks like good and bad news: Germany wins 1 turn tempo here, but looses this in the west (Luftwaffe must operate in Russia to pose a serious threat towards Moscow, and thus the allies can D-Day 1 turn earlier).

Also, the German offensive is weaker -as is the Russian defence, in an equal measure-, so I think with an all fast G1 build and no sea lion feign a subsequent G2 DOW on Russia is no less or more dangerous to the allied cause than a G3 DOW.

[Derek]

G1 Dow ruissia
Build 3 mech 3 tanks

I wouldn’t not feign sealion and not Dow Russia g1
Just my opinion

[eames57]

I was just scrolling through some archives - I know this thread is 2 years old, but BluGerman maybe you’ll get a notice and it might help in case you feel like reliving an old dream.

This is the best plan for a G2 Novgorod crush I can think of, but it works only if the opportunity exists:
G1
  Buy a carrier and 2 transports.

Kill all the Royal Navy with subs and planes
      I like to strafe 111 with 1 sub, 1 bat, 1 sbom, 1 pair tbom + fig.  The bat automatically repairs next round.
      Be sure to use 2 subs to kill his des/trans in 106 to keep a sea lion pressure up.
  Take Normandy with 1 inf, 1 art, 1 arm
  Take France with all remaining available land units
  Strafe Yugo with 1 pair of planes, 0 arm, retreating to Romania.

Activate Bulgaria with 1 arm
  Activate Finland with 1 inf
  1 pair of planes on your carrier, 1 on Norway, 1 on Poland, and the rest on West Germany.
  Move your arm from Hungary to West Germany.
  Leave your arm in Poland there.
  Move 1 art from Germany to West Germany.
  Move the rest of Germany’s land troops to Poland and Hungary.

You should now have 4 inf, 1 art, 1 arm in West Germany ready to transport to either Novgorod (via 127), Scotland, Gibraltar/Morocco, or even Nenetsia if you’re feeling saucy, depending on the situation.  The rest depends on Russia’s moves.  An attack on Novgorod only works if he moves all of his land troops, including his AAguns, down to Baltic or Belarus in order to make a stand at East Poland, which he probably won’t do after you’ve strafed Yugo.  G2 Novgorod is only feasible if he has no more than 8 inf/art, 2 fig, 1 tbomb there.  You could probably still do it with 9 inf/art, but the odds start declining drastically.  If, however, he’s left Baltic States wide open, then you get to throw another tank in the mix.  Move your whole fleet up so you can bombard with your bat and cru.  Attack with 2 sbombers and 2 pairs of fig/tbomb (from Poland and Norway).  Your planes already on your carrier should move into 127 to prevent him from scrambling, and then land in Finland making room on your carrier for your planes from Norway.  Press into Eastern Poland/Baltic States.  Italy btw should have been building/moving inf and AAguns over to Romania to protect your southern flank.

It’s a devastating move because every inf counts for Russia on a G2, and you’ve just killed 8/9 plus all his planes.  (If he didn’t put his planes up there, then you haven’t lost any planes in the attack either, and you might even have an extra ground unit.)  Plus he’ll need to use at least 2 probably 3 more troops to retake it in order to prevent you from building 3 more tanks.  In which case your 5 inf from Karelia plus planes can retake it in time to build 3 tbombers.  You’d almost certainly take Moscow turn 5.

However, this move is easily preventable by leaving your AAguns there on the first round.  It also prevents you from leaving a fig on Rome, exposing you to a more crippling Taranto.  (You might be able to pull a fig from 110, but if you did that, as England I would find it worthwhile to scramble.)  Also, assuming Russia takes Novgorod back, or if you fail to take it, your fleet will be stranded there for at least 1 turn, lest it expose itself to the RAF without the shelter of West Germany’s aircover.  A successful G2 Novgorod is well worth these costs, but unfortunately you have to take the risk first without any assurance there’ll be a payoff - and there’ll probably won’t be against a seasoned player.  It’s more of a gimmick move - very fun if you can pull it off.

P.S.  I mentioned earlier you should take Normandy.  Usually I’m all for throwing everything into France.  But if G2 Novgorod doesn’t pan out, you’re going to want to use your planes to attack the rest of the British fleet, which might be amassed in 109 under cover of up to 6 scrambling fighters and might be as large as 1 des/2 cru/1 damaged bat, which you don’t want repaired.  Normally, you’d be able to land everything in Brussels, but if you’ve got aircraft in Poland and Norway, you won’t have enough to protect Brussels from a UK1 attack, not even with 3AA guns.  Which is why taking Normandy is crucial.