Pearl Harbor Opening for Japan

[seth4god]

Here’s a solution that I use for my J1s

Buy 2trn, minor

Sz6
ss, 2dds, and all air from sz6

Sz35
ss, dd, bb sz19
bb sz6

Sz37
ftr formosa
ca sz20
2bmb Japan

Phi
ftr, tac sz33
inf Oki & art Man
2inf Kiangsi

Yunnan
2inf, art Kwangsi
ftr, tac Kiangsu

Kwangtung
inf Kwangsi
inf Kiangsi
ftr, tac Manchuria
ftr Oki
tac Japan

Hunan
art Kiangsi
ftr, tac Manchuria
tac Japan

Walkins
inf Shantung -> Anhwe
inf Jehol -> Chahar
inf Japan, inf Iwo -> Wake
2inf Siam -> FIC

NCM
2 carries sz6 -> sz31
dd sz33 -> sz31
dd sz33 -> sz35
ca in sz6 stays unless there’s no threat to sz6 (alternately could be swapped with dd in sz31)
all air Yunnan, Hunan, Kwangtung to Kwangsi
bombers to Kwangsi
inf/art to Kiangsi (if needed to make sure sz35 transports are full)
consolidate rest of inf/art and mech in Anhwe
shuffle troops from man to Jehol and Korea to Man
3 unmoved ftrs to where their defense might be needed to

• protect sz6 transport builds
• replace any air losses in sz26 to bring carriers up to complement
• otherwise move to Kwangsi

Tips & Hints
I’ve left 3 carriers, dd, ca, and 3 ftrs for nocom on purpose. If Hawaii air is scrambled, you could lose all your ships. If this happens, you could block sz26 with the unmoved dd. If there’s no scramblers, your trn builds could be hit - so you need some of those fighters in Japan and maybe the cruiser or dd if you want em. Alternately, those fighters could replace any air losses on your 2 carriers if sz26 goes really really wrong.

You need to keep the cruiser in sz37 to block UK from hitting FIC. Otherwise you lose the only ground forces that could hit Yunnan J2. Plus FIC is a great location for a minor placement on J2. Place the minor you built on J1 in Shantung and start pumping out mech/arm.

This opener is obviously pretty aggressive and could allow China to get strong as it’s light on troops in SE China. This is why I recommend getting that 2nd minor down in FIC on J2. Pump mech/arm out of Shantung and inf/art out of FIC.

[Sire Fred]

@ghr2:

I see your point here, if Japan presents the US with an opportunity, the US should take it.  And for a battle like this, mutual annihilation would likely help the US more than Japan.  But, if the US can afford to delay attacking for 1 or 2 turns, then the odds will only get better for him because of his superior production.

I would be afraid to let the IJN run away an miss a great opportunity to sink a lot of ships early.

[knp7765]

@Sire:

@ghr2:

I see your point here, if Japan presents the US with an opportunity, the US should take it.  And for a battle like this, mutual annihilation would likely help the US more than Japan.  But, if the US can afford to delay attacking for 1 or 2 turns, then the odds will only get better for him because of his superior production.

I would be afraid to let the IJN run away an miss a great opportunity to sink a lot of ships early.

Good point. When the US goes to war and that Western USA IC becomes a Major IC, the US can purchase a good size fleet all at once to replace the losses around Hawaii while the Japanese will simply be sunk.

[Gekkepop]

You may be able to attack the fleet with similar dice values, but you are forgetting that the Japanese have more hit points and a better skew. Attacking into the fleet will most likely be a disaster where the US loses everything while the Japanese have several units left which will soon repair. Even in the off chance you win (and trade evenly) whatever is left will still be sunk on J2 and it will not stop the fall of Hawaii, while if the dice go against you any retreating units are in a vulnerable position.

[ghr2]

What ever you send j2 will be sunk us2 and will keep going until 1 side gives up.

[Gekkepop]

You have 52 ipcs, the strongest fleet you can buy with that is 6 subs 2 destroyers. I am reinforcing with a loaded carrier, a battleship, a cruiser and a sub (plus what is left from your A1 suicide run.) Attacking into that is 0% chance to win.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Sire:

I am thinking about a J1 these days. The problem I have with the strike on Pearl Harbor strategy is the following. If I don’t bring the SZ 33 carrier+DD and every warships and planes from SZ 6, I won’t be able to repulse an american counterattack if the US brings everything available to him into battle.

If you bring only two carriers, here’s what you have to resist the american…

-2 CV loaded with fighters
-1 BB
-1 CA
-3 DD (one from SZ 33)
-1 SS

…for a total of 34 on defense averaging 5.66 hits on the first turn of battle.

The US player can bring the following…

-1 BB
-1 CV
-1 CA
-1 DD
-5 FGT (the one from Eastern US landing on the carrier)
-1 TAC
-1 BMB

…for a total of 32 averaging 5.33 hits for the first turn of battle.

A strike from the US navy, if not victorious, will still kill many Japanese ships that Japan can replace less easier than the US. That’s why, in my opinion, if you strike at Pearl on J1, you must bring the Carrier from the Carolines to help defend your fleet.

If an opponent of me try a J1 strike on Pearl with only two carriers, I would hit him with everything available everytime,

Exactly.  Was going to post this myself.  Never never do a turn 1 Hawaii, because then you’re stuck there defending it all game.  More IPC’s in the money islands PLUS you threaten India and Anzac.  Pearl Harbor is a trap, and why the Japanese burned to the ground in real life during WW2 as well.  Don’t make the same mistake ;)

[ghr2]

@Gekkepop:

You have 52 ipcs, the strongest fleet you can buy with that is 6 subs 2 destroyers. I am reinforcing with a loaded carrier, a battleship, a cruiser and a sub (plus what is left from your A1 suicide run.) Attacking into that is 0% chance to win.

Well, I thought your battleship and cruiser were down by phil.

[Gekkepop]

They’re not, and that’s exactly why.

[ghr2]

@Sire:

I am thinking about a J1 these days. The problem I have with the strike on Pearl Harbor strategy is the following. If I don’t bring the SZ 33 carrier+DD and every warships and planes from SZ 6, I won’t be able to repulse an american counterattack if the US brings everything available to him into battle.

If you bring only two carriers, here’s what you have to resist the american…

-2 CV loaded with fighters
-1 BB
-1 CA
-3 DD (one from SZ 33)
-1 SS

…for a total of 34 on defense averaging 5.66 hits on the first turn of battle.

The US player can bring the following…

-1 BB
-1 CV
-1 CA
-1 DD
-5 FGT (the one from Eastern US landing on the carrier)
-1 TAC
-1 BMB

…for a total of 32 averaging 5.33 hits for the first turn of battle.

A strike from the US navy, if not victorious, will still kill many Japanese ships that Japan can replace less easier than the US. That’s why, in my opinion, if you strike at Pearl on J1, you must bring the Carrier from the Carolines to help defend your fleet.

If an opponent of me try a J1 strike on Pearl with only two carriers, I would hit him with everything available everytime,

Don’t forget 2 anzac boats and 3 anzac planes

[ghr2]

@Gekkepop:

They’re not, and that’s exactly why.

Well, anyway what would be your turn 2 buy?

Cause the US will have alot for his turn 3 attack.

Also, with Japan investing everything on holding seazone 26, then the UK/anzac will have some room to maneuver around the dutch islands.

[Gekkepop]

Turn 2 buy depends on the board, but usually transports and men to capture Sydney.

[knp7765]

Well, it’s an interesting strategy and idea, but I just don’t think the Japanese can win with this idea. However, if Japan is fighting for Hawaii like this and the US is pouring so much into trying to get it back, that also means the UK and Russia are pretty much on their own against Germany and Italy so you may still get an Axis win.
England will be stuck on their island unable to get into Europe and having their hands full with Italy while the Russians will get ground down by the massive German onslaught. Churchill and Stalin will be begging for US help, but Roosevelt won’t hear them, being too busy slugging it out with Hirohito over Hawaii while Hitler and Mussolini just laugh and laugh.

[ghr2]

@knp7765:

Well, it’s an interesting strategy and idea, but I just don’t think the Japanese can win with this idea. However, if Japan is fighting for Hawaii like this and the US is pouring so much into trying to get it back, that also means the UK and Russia are pretty much on their own against Germany and Italy so you may still get an Axis win.
England will be stuck on their island unable to get into Europe and having their hands full with Italy while the Russians will get ground down by the massive German onslaught. Churchill and Stalin will be begging for US help, but Roosevelt won’t hear them, being too busy slugging it out with Hirohito over Hawaii while Hitler and Mussolini just laugh and laugh.

After the US turn 4, he can do nearly all of his builds on the atlantic.  Japan will be in an economic hole and will have a hard time being able to threaten a vc win.  Before US makes an impact in the atlantic.

[Spendo02]

@Gekkepop:

Turn 2 buy depends on the board, but usually transports and men to capture Sydney.

J1: 2 TT and 1 Bomber
J2: 2 Bombers and 1 DD

Provided you go “all in” with your starting TT by staging them in SZ6 on J1, Anzac will be entirely obligated to send 3 Ftr to Hawaii plus their… Cruiser? from NZ.

Of course I J1 DOW if I am going to take Hawaii, I strafe Hawaii with 3 Ftr/Tac, 1 DD, 1 SS and 2 Bombers.  I take Wake on J1, fly my bombers to Marshall Islands (after strafing the Hawaii fleet in port), stage all 3 Carriers plus the remaining starting navy in SZ6 at Wake and NCM a DD to Hawaii after I finish the strafe to block the US fleet.

Basically you invite the US to return to Hawaii on US1 with the full weight of the Japanese navy and half its air force including 3 Bombers waiting to sink it - and you’re still going to take Hawaii on J2 unless Anzac elects to not scramble and instead to defend Hawaii over sinking Japanese ships.

Of course in doing so, you have 1 single goal in mind:  Make the US spend in the Pacific for 4-5 turns because they won’t be interfering in Europe until at the earliest of round 8 or 9.

There IS merit in going full out Hawaii, because if the Allies ignore it and spend on Europe, Japan wins the game in round 5.  If they don’t ignore it, and shut Japan down - which will take at least 4 rounds of purchases to do by the US, Germany and Italy should be well on their way to securing their side of the map.

Of course, the smart strategy is for India to just start sending units to Egypt after UK2 gets them most of the DEI in anticipation of that being the lynchpin of the game.

[Dark_Destroyer]

@Spendo02:

@Gekkepop:

Turn 2 buy depends on the board, but usually transports and men to capture Sydney.

Of course in doing so, you have 1 single goal in mind:  Make the US spend in the Pacific for 4-5 turns because they won’t be interfering in Europe until at the earliest of round 8 or 9.

There IS merit in going full out Hawaii, because if the Allies ignore it and spend on Europe, Japan wins the game in round 5.  If they don’t ignore it, and shut Japan down - which will take at least 4 rounds of purchases to do by the US, Germany and Italy should be well on their way to securing their side of the map.

I have no idea what you’re thinking here Spendo.  It will not cost the USA 250+ IPC to ruin the Japanese navy stationed at Hawaii.  Meaning, USA will be over in the other theater building turn 3.  If you want the USA to spend in the Pacific for 5 turns, you have to threaten something.

I can’t get on board with this Hawaii base of operations.  USA will ruin Japan, imho.

[Spendo02]

Japan’s navy would only be in Hawaii for the turn to land the invasion, after which it can swing to Carolines or back to SZ6.  I’ve hashed it out elsewhere and its not a strong strategy unless you are certain the US and Allies will commit everything to Hawaii’s defense for a J2 attack.  Even then, a bad first round dice roll will cost you more ships than is you want to lose.

A prudent Allied commander would not send his navy to Hawaii with the full weight of the IJN staged to invade Hawaii.  A foolish one would, and would lose sorely and spend multiple turns rebuilding a navy to chase Japan around the Pacific with again.

[Gekkepop]

It isn’t a strong strategy the way you described it, but that’s not the one I posted. I’m not moving at Hawaii nor moving to Carolines or SZ6, I’m moving to New Zealand or Queensland to capture Sydney J4. The US has two options: suicide the fleet against me (which will probably stop the fall of ANZAC) or lag a turn behind me, unable to help their ally.

[Dark_Destroyer]

I thought we already agreed most of us would block J2 with a destroyer giving the USA the option of sinking your fleet J3 after you take Hawaii?

[Gekkepop]

That’s actually not what most people were suggesting, that’s what one guy said while the rest wanted to suicide the fleet. Anyway I’m now trying a variation of the opening where the second transport goes to Carolines instead of Borneo to prevent the block. I would never go for Hawaii J3 against a smart USA player since his fleet should have gotten too big by then.