Who Wins

[Derek]

“P.S.: As you should have noticed I already gave an outlay for the first buys and moves for the not so experienced players who still try such nonsense and build much navy with CPs for instance! (page before)”

Or in Texas’s case, throw away the AH fleet round one to block the UK cruiser from doing nothing lol  :-P

In the one instance the CP won in my 5 games i played, it was because Russia got a bit overzealous vs Germany and AH and lost too much too early, the Allies never sunk the AH fleet (in all the other games the Allies sink the AH fleet by the end of round 1) and France was not nearly aggressive enough in taking nuetrals (such as Spain)

Flashman i believe (maybe it was someone else) made great points about UK and/or USA landing units in nothern Russian to aid Russia or retake it if conquered

Also in the one CP win the Autobots went full tilt to India (except the proturkey nuetral force which was used to take Greece) and got it round 8 or 9 i believe, but it was greatly aided by the fact that russia fell so quick and UK could no longer spend so much in India to defend against turkey

[Texas Holders]

Everyone is a beginner on this game, it has only been out a little over a month.  You can’t use WWII strats in this game, they don’t work.  You don’t have the Air Force to blitz the Allies with, you have to grind it out.  The CPs have to bide their time until they can dump a bunch of tanks and then hit the Allies first.  Both the land and sea mechanics are so different from previous games that we all are figuring this out on the fly.

Yes, I am willing to try anything and everything during play testing and strat planning, but why not? You have nothing to lose.

What I don’t understand is this:

• The Allies begin the game with more land units than the CPs;
• The Allies begin the game with more income than the CPs;
• So then why is the prevailing strategies that cause the CPs to lose units at a faster rate the only logical strategy;
• Additionally, why when these hit the Allies fast strategies don’t work, why does everyone go complain to the designers rather than try something else entirely?
• Also, why is it that those of us that exercise our creativity ridiculed?  Are you afraid we will be successful and Larry won’t make changes to enable your strategy to work?
• Finally, I am glad a kill France/Russia fast strategy doesn’t work, otherwise this game would lose a lot of replayability and would quickly collect dust on a shelf somewhere.

Bottom line… Don’t be afraid to try something different, what do you have to lose?

[Texas Holders]

@Uncrustable:

Or in Texas’s case, throw away the AH fleet round one to block the UK cruiser from doing nothing lol  :-P

Seriously?  If you are going to repost my ideas at least get them right.  I said the UK cruiser is likely going to clean up the Ottoman fleet.  Posts like these make you sound like you are either 12 years old or lack reading comprehension.  If you are going to insult me, do it to me directly or better yet, in a PM.  These posts add nothing to the discussion.

[Cornwallis]

@Uncrustable:

Also in the one CP win the Autobots went full tilt to India (except the proturkey nuetral force which was used to take Greece) and got it round 8 or 9 i believe, but it was greatly aided by the fact that russia fell so quick and UK could no longer spend so much in India to defend against turkey

This is why your CP’s won: British played screwed up India. As Britain i rarely buy a war fleet in the atlantic (1BB in 9 games i think). Why should you, the french are strong enough, the british fleet from India can reinforce the italian and thus relieve the french BB from it’s duty there. So the brittish player can buy 100% in India B1, B2 B3. The frnech transports can carry the brittish troops from england and canada in those early turns. From B4 you have arond 40IPC with Britain, so you spend 20IPC in India (more than the Autobots have by then) and spend the rest in England. because at that time the US can help.

[Chacmool]

Because of the big US-market I understand why the US-entry was set in Round 4. With this setting its hard for the CPs to win at all (will be even harder with this new LH Ideas of naval +1 movement)  If you try out an Italy War Entry on turn 2 and especially an US-Entry on turn 6 its touch and go wether CPs or Allies win.

[Flashman]

If you put back American entry to round 6 you need to restrict them from buying units before then.
America at peace did not build for war - it should go to war with the same number of units it starts the game with.

[xxstefanx]

@Flashman:

If you put back American entry to round 6 you need to restrict them from buying units before then.
America at peace did not build for war - it should go to war with the same number of units it starts the game with.

That’s right.
I would even advocate R8!
But then their production should be more in line with real capacity meaning 40 IPCs.
And of course 6 Inf and 2 Art for start is overrepresented!

[Chacmool]

@Flashman:

If you put back American entry to round 6 you need to restrict them from buying units before then.
America at peace did not build for war - it should go to war with the same number of units it starts the game with.

You are right Flashman this is much more historical. I think starting with R6 and 40 IPCs (like Stefan suggested) from this point is a good solution. What do you think about Italy beginnig in R2? I think they should be allowed to collect income from the start of the game and build up in Venice to attack in Trentino and Isonzo in R2.

[eudemonist]

Played our second game last night.  The Central Powers did much better this game, I think, but still didn’t win.  Some of the success was from slightly better-than-average dice over the course of the game, but they weren’t tremendously slanted.

The Americans did save all their money for the first few rounds, not even buying until round four, so didn’t mobilize 'til five.  That was by choice, though, as they wanted to bring a seven-stack of tanks on their first transport convoy.

Overall, the plan for the CP was to not attempt to expand in all directions simultaneously, but to mostly play defense in the west while eliminating Russia, then turn around in force.  It went fairly well.  Austria and Germany did give some ground in the west, with France even taking Ruhr for a couple rounds (that hurt).  Russia was forced in revolution Round 5, which was actually a mistake.  Germany really needs that six+ bucks down the road.  After Russia fell, though, the CP was able to push back pretty strong in the west, with the Austrians able to take Venice, Piedmont, Burgundy, Marseilles, and Bordeaux and the Germans in control of Belgium and Lorraine.

We actually called the game with a sizable Austrian stack sitting outside Paris, but Germany had finally lost the naval war in the North Sea (the French spent a round buying boats to turn the tide), Americans were landing in Spain, and the Ottomans had stalled out contesting India after Americans landed in Constantinople and a stack or two had to turn around.  They had gone almost straight there with nearly everybody–I did divert one round to kill Brits in Arabia, which was a mistake (survivors transported back to India for defense, and my attackers were out of position now).

Review:  This is only game two for us, but I’m more convinced now that some balance factors might could stand to be addressed.  India is almost impossible to take out, I think.  The Central Powers also have no real way to begin to contest the Mediterranean, it doesn’t seem.  I haven’t experimented with Austrian navy yet, but it doesn’t look promising.

[Flashman]

The problem with allowing Italy to collect income R1 without being at war is that Austria would have no reason not to invade Venice. If Italy doesn’t collect a round of income it might just be worth leaving it alone for a turn.

[Chacmool]

Sounds reasonable if they were still allowed to move units in R1.
I like playing my historical scenario version:

In Round 1 Austria concentrates on Serbia, Montenegro (Albania) and Russia in the East, in Vienna they don`t bother about Italy, since it declared its neutrality early in August 14. Because of this, there were no significant troops in Tyrol or Trient.
When it comes to Italys turn they (collect income, build units and) move their troops to the borders in the north (lets say this is the phase were Britain and France convinced Italy to join them.)

In R2 (Spring 1915) Austria confronted with the Italian requirements and troop movements has now to protect its borders; not only in the east but also in the west! (mostly with “k.k.Standschützen”). The signs are clear that Rome has joined the Entente and will attack…

Does your suggestion for Italy joining R2 also mean that they weren`t allowed to move units in R1?

[GeneralTuna]

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

[Noll]

@GeneralTuna:

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

You will be surprised at how this game favors the Allies. It favors them so much that the creator is looking at optional rules to balance the game.
Even if the infantries deployed round1 looks inaccurate, the game as it is now kinda playes historically.
Russia gets a Revolution and stops fighting after like 6 rounds of play, but by that time the western front will be an impossible effort for Germany to take.
Also since Italy is “already at war” you should consider that after the DOW Italy nearly doubled their army by conscripting lots of young men (my grandftather fought at Caporetto against the Austrohungarian and German alliance at the age of 18).

[Chacmool]

CPs are your clear favorits because they have 6Inf and 1Art more than the Allies in R1?

Never had that impression…

Look at the naval Set up and then look at the Starting IPCs:

Central =    77 IPCs  
Allies    = 113 IPCs

[GeneralTuna]

@Chacmool:

CPs are your clear favorits because they have 6Inf and 1Art more than the Allies in R1?

Never had that impression…

Look at the naval Set up and then look at the Starting IPCs:

Central =    77 IPCs  
Allies    = 113 IPCs

I guess what I find most puzzling is the relatively puny size of the Russian Army.  The Central Powers have a huge concentration of inf and art right on russia’s doorstep.  One thing I didn’t consider is the 18 inf, 3 art the allies have in neutral countries in the east as opposed to only 5 inf an 1 art for bulgaria.  But the Turks have a large standing army as well which seems to offset that (yes I know I haven’t played so I’m largely talking out of my ass but I can’t help it as I’m very excited to give this a go.)

[GeneralTuna]

@Noll:

@GeneralTuna:

Just ordered the game and haven’t played it.  But I’m looking at the starting unit numbers and the Central Powers heavily outnumber the Allies on the Eastern and Western Front (which is historically wrong in terms of the size of the armies in 1914).

Observe:

Central Powers
Germany (63 inf, 23 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4.5 million)
Austria (48 inf, 12 art) (actual size of army 1914: 3 million)
Turkey (23 inf, 6 art) (actual size of army 1914: 210,000)
Total (134 inf, 41 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 7.71 million)

Allies
Russia (36 inf, 13 art) (actual size of army 1914: 6 million)
France (30 inf, 8 art) (actual size of army 1914: 4 million)
UK (34 inf, 10 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1 million)
Italy (22 inf, 7 art) (actual size of army 1914: 1.25 million)
U.S. (6 inf, 2 art) (actual size of army 1914: 200,000)
Total (128 inf, 40 art) (actual combined size of army 1914: 12.45 million)

What I find most bizarre of all is that austria-hungary is significantly stronger than Russia, which is laughable.  AHO was as everyone knows “a corpse shackled to Germany.”  Yet in this game AHO is a huge power stronger than every other power outside of Germany.

Furthermore, the central powers are poised to flatten Russia with all that power thus making it pre-ordained that Russia falls due to sheer numbers deployed on the eastern front.  I look forward to seeing how things play out but my first impression is that the Central Powers should be the clear favorites in this game.

You will be surprised at how this game favors the Allies. It favors them so much that the creator is looking at optional rules to balance the game.
Even if the infantries deployed round1 looks inaccurate, the game as it is now kinda playes historically.
Russia gets a Revolution and stops fighting after like 6 rounds of play, but by that time the western front will be an impossible effort for Germany to take.
Also since Italy is “already at war” you should consider that after the DOW Italy nearly doubled their army by conscripting lots of young men (my grandftather fought at Caporetto against the Austrohungarian and German alliance at the age of 18).

I’ll admit my attention is focused almost solely on the Eastern Front due to it being so important in the other axis games.  The idea of a stagnant western front will be a novel and refreshing challenge.

[Flashman]

Yes. A country not at war should not behave as though it is. It should not be able to store income for military purposes, nor buy armed forces more than its normal peace-time establishment (i.e. it’s starting units and disposition).

My point above is that if Italy is going to collect income and build and move units on R1 even if not at war, then I cannot see Austria not attacking Venice R1; unless it has no intention of ever going for Rome.

@Chacmool:

Does your suggestion for Italy joining R2 also mean that they weren`t allowed to move units in R1?

[Chacmool]

I am with you that Italy should not collect income and purchase units in R1.

But I disagree with the movement restriction.
Why should Italy not be allowed to move troops into Venice/Piedmont to “protect” (official reason for this action before declaring war) their borders in R1?

Actually I want to get into a more historical scenario with Italy beeing the aggressor in R2 and able to jump into AHs back in Tyrol or Triest.

But as the game plays now, every time AH strikes first and moves into Venice.

I never liked that (since LHs first front report) because it doesn`t feel like something AH would have done actually in 1914/15 nevertheless it blows Larrys mind…

[Flashman]

Big wind.

But like I say, unless you ban Austria from entering Venice R1 it will always do so as long as the alternative is allowing Italy to collect and spend money and place stronger defences on the Austrian border.

One alternative I proposed was this:

At the start of every Italian turn, if Italy is not yet at war, toss a coin. Heads means war, and Italy can do everything an at war nation can do straight away.

This puts Austria in a real dilemma: If it initiates a war with Italy on A1, it gets a start in Venice; but if it ignores Italy for now it might not have to fight on this front for several turns. After all, in 1914 nobody knew when Italy would join in, or even (for sure) on which side.

Italy joining in with the Central Powers produces all kinds of balance issues, but prevaricating about when to declare war is not seriously game breaking.

In a wider view, I consider that each nation has three stages:

1. At Peace.
In this state, units should be distributed evenly throughout homeland provinces, the fleet in home port, and proportionately realistic garrisons in colonies. In the game such a nation collects no income and neither builds nor moves units.

2. Mobilization.
The nation can move its units within home territory in preparation for planned attacks and anticipated enemy movements. In the game, all nations going to war round one get a mobilization turn, the moves of which are written in secret and revealed and implemented simultaneously. On its next turn it is fully At War.

3. At War
A neutral nation which is attacked goes straight to At War status. A neutral nation declaring War (e.g. Italy on I2) must undergo a mobilization first.

Hence, Austria would have to think carefully about bringing Italy into the fight earlier than it needs to.

[Chacmool]

Ignoring the original Set up (with its random 6Infs and 2Arts) during the mobilzation stage would be really interesting.
Before crossing borders for the first time in R1, everybody writes down where he puts his units on the map.

This would bring up some serious questions:
Should Germany do the Schlieffenplan and leave Prussia undefended or should they be more agressive in the East?
Where will the Russians make their first attacks? and so on…

Write it down on something like this chart:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/90842/axis-allies-1914-mid-game-record-sheet

It would make the game more unforseeable for sure.