@WILD-BILL Eqqman is correct.
Who Wins
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I said allies mostly, because we haven’t finished all the games. We’ve played 6-7 games and the allies have pretty much dominate them all. I think the allies have too much of a sea advantage, and can move units too freely. The French fleet is over sized, and needs to be cut back some. UK spends in India is out of control, and needs to be limited. I agree the way that the French can ratchet up their income even though they have lost 1/2 their European lands is very unsettling (and the UK can get a healthy income boost when it spends in India).
We have done some good things with the CP though, and will be looking to see the next game through to the end. I think we may be pulling the plug a bit early, and maybe the CP can get its second wind after the allies go on the offensive for a while and have trouble with thier own supply lines (although the allied navies will most likely fix that).
The CP put Russia into a 5th turn revolution in our first game, but the cost was to severe as both the Austrian/German armies were wiped out doing it, and the western allies were approaching Berlin in force. It would have taken them at least 4 rounds to take it, but the CP income was plummeting.
In another game we had the Germans go 90% Paris (10% aid to the Russian front), and the Austrians did the opposite, 85% dig in to defend against the Russians, and 15% follow Germany to the west. The Austrian army hit Venice A1 with all 16 units (13 survived), but bailed on me and headed back to Austria when Italy bought a couple transports and made multiple landings in the Balkans (with some help from the French). The Austrians were stretched in the beginning, but they eventually over came the Russians. As it turned out the French can mount a hell of a defense by themselves too (all inf buys, and pull back to Paris). The UK went hard India the first 3 turns, then started making some landings on the French coast. My Germans attacked Paris, but it would have taken 3 rounds to drop it, and the UK/Italy were there to either move in to defend Paris after my first assault, or liberate it if I did get it (so it was pointless).
I think the Germans going hard France, and the Austrians going hard Russia might work, but you should have a small 12 unit ally force with you to head off trouble, or back you up, and the Germans need to keep a steady supply chain going, or attempt to stop UK landings. I think we focused a bit too much on def against the Russians, because the Austrians were eventually able to over power them, and push them back, but the Germans were pretty much out of steam in the west by then.
In our next game we are probably going to change the French sz 15 naval set up to just a cruiser (swap BB for cruiser, and remove the transport).
We are also house ruling a production limit of 8 units in India (2X its IPC value). It’s not much of a change but in one game the UK spent all income there for 3 turns (30+ units). 8 per turn would at least cut it down to 24 units over the 3 turns (we’ll see how it goes).
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whoops I accidentally clicked on CPs always cause I was thinking CP never. I meant to click on Allies laways win. My vote it the lone outlier, sorry about that
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@WILD:
I agree the way that the French can ratchet up their income even though they have lost 1/2 their European lands is very unsettling (and the UK can get a healthy income boost when it spends in India).
Can you further elaborate on this? I don’t follow how the French are increasing their income while losing territories or how the UK boosts their income by building in India.
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French border territories in Europe are only worth about 2 IPCs. France can easily scoop up Portugal, Spanish Morocco, and using their Portugal transports they can claim Togoland and Kamerun in Africa. Even with Germany knocking down their European IPCs they still make about the same IPC as they start the game with. We’ve been doing an F2 Spain hit with air superiority and the round 1 Portugal units and it has been very successful. You can afford to pull back units from Paris to set this up and the additional 4 IPC makes it very difficult for Germany to make a dent in France’s IPCs. They make almost 40 IPCs a turn some rounds.
Britain gets an income boost because they end up easily taking Persia, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Trans-Jordan, and more times Arabia. They have no real fear of losing Egypt at that point and their transports in India are invulnerable because of the Suez canal.
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CP has to take some unnecessary risks early to have a chance. If 2/3 of them don’t pan out, you are screwed.
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French border territories in Europe are only worth about 2 IPCs. France can easily scoop up Portugal, Spanish Morocco, and using their Portugal transports they can claim Togoland and Kamerun in Africa. Even with Germany knocking down their European IPCs they still make about the same IPC as they start the game with. We’ve been doing an F2 Spain hit with air superiority and the round 1 Portugal units and it has been very successful. You can afford to pull back units from Paris to set this up and the additional 4 IPC makes it very difficult for Germany to make a dent in France’s IPCs. They make almost 40 IPCs a turn some rounds.
Britain gets an income boost because they end up easily taking Persia, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Trans-Jordan, and more times Arabia. They have no real fear of losing Egypt at that point and their transports in India are invulnerable because of the Suez canal.
I have never seen France top 30 per turn, much less 40. With the pick ups you mentioned above adds up to 33, where are the other 7+?
I haven’t seen the British being that successful in the Middle East either. If they are spending that much in India, how are they fending off Germany? What are the Ottomans typically doing to get overrun like that?
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@Texas:
I have never seen France top 30 per turn, much less 40. With the pick ups you mentioned above adds up to 33, where are the other 7+?
I haven’t seen the British being that successful in the Middle East either. If they are spending that much in India, how are they fending off Germany? What are the Ottomans typically doing to get overrun like that?
Spain, Portugal, Spanish Morocco, Togoland, Kamerun are +9 and are all but guaranteed. More often than not you can send French forces to pick up SW Africa and Angola for another +2. Now France is making +11 for around 35 IPCs. If at any point France ever picks up any German border territory like Alsace or takes back Belgium they can easily get close or over.
All the UK needs to do is buy 1 plane for India to get air superiority. If the Ottomans buy 1 then just buy a second one. The Ottomans barely make enough money to produce infantry, much less planes. Once the UK can buy a handful of tanks in India, those tanks can pretty much negate the impact of every turn worth of Ottoman units. Ottoman supply lines are much longer than India’s.
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That still doesn’t answer how the UK defends against Germany if they are spending that much in India. If the UK is spending that much in India, Germany is being played very poorly.
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@rjpeters70:
Batman.
No way. Iron Man.
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I’ve only played one game so far but it was a CP win. We did not use the Russian Revolution rules because they seem to dang complicated. Also, we left all neutrals alone, which may make a difference.
The Allies pretty much dominated the sea, but could not make progress in Europe. The CP was able to hold off the Western Allies and kind of ganged up on Russia. Once Russia was out, the CP started making progress on the Western Front. Austria was able to pound Italy pretty well while Germany handled UK and France. UK spent a fair amount dealing with the Ottomans so they weren’t a huge help in Europe.
One thing that probably made a big difference was Austria making a surprise amphibious assault on Rome and taking the Italian capital round 2. Italy got it back, but never seemed to really recover from it. The US tried backing them up but couldn’t keep a continuous supply of troops. Austria ended up going through Northern Italy and attacking France while Germany hit France through Northern France and Belgium.
It took 13 or 14 rounds, but eventually Germany took Paris.
Looking back, it kind of reminded me of an Axis win in Global 40. The Axis would hit the Allies hard and the Allies kept reacting to Axis advances rather than having a real plan of their own. It seemed like the Allies did the same thing in this game, so the CP was able to take advantage of it.
Another thing, I still think the Russian Revolution helps the Allies more than the CP. For one thing, if you declare the RR, there is no capturing Moscow for the CP and thus no plundering of their treasury. Plus the movement restrictions for both sides still seems complicated to me. -
How was Rome captured turn two? What was bought on the first turn? I would think an Austrian transport purchase would give it away.
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@Texas:
That still doesn’t answer how the UK defends against Germany if they are spending that much in India.� If the UK is spending that much in India, Germany is being played very poorly.
Why does UK have to defend against Germany ?
If Germany is spending on naval then Germany is being played very poorly lol
UK has absolutely nothing to fear from Germany, and as i said France can go toe-toe with Germany without losing its capital.
UK can spend almost all its income in India, USA lands in Italy turn 6 (12 units).
I honestly see no way (baring screwups or horrible dice) that the allies lose without doing it on purpose.The last game i played France collected 32 IPC on turn 3; 34 on 4 and on turn 5 actually had ratcheted all the way to 44.
Germany didnt send enough units towards Moscow and couldnt take it and at the same time didnt have near enough to pressure France in any way.
With Germany sending units to Moscow France has all day to secure Portugal; Morocco; Spain and 3+ tts in Africa.I have played 6 games now and tried about every CP strat i could think of.
As long as Russia masses infantry (with a few fighters) and retreats, it takes one hell of a CP force to take Moscow.
France and Russia both should build almost exclusively infantry with a few fighters mixed in, Germany can take Moscow eventually but by the time they do France is crashing through Ruhr en mass, and now atleast 1/3 of German forces are effectivly ‘out of service’ in MoscowIf Germany tries a France first strategy they will get to Paris and stall, now USA and UK are landing in Europe forcing Germany to retreat.
Russia if left unchecked can take meso, sweden, norway, persia, and can easily overwhelm 2 of the 3 CP powers on the Eastern front.
A-H cannot take Rome AND hold vs Russia, and if A-H is not trying to take Rome Italy will go through the swiss and even further hinder the German advance on Paris -
to KNP7765: ok was the allied player your 3 year old son? cause lol how does AH make a ‘surprise’ amphid assault on Rome., on turn TWO ffs
This is truly hysterical, Italy builds atleast 4 units turn one that HAVE to be placed in Rome. So Italy needs 3 transports to have a decent shot. That means only 14 IPCs left to bolster their MASSIVELY outgunned fleet in the med. 1 battleship. so now AH has 2 BB and 1 CA. French/Italy/UK combined STARTING navy in the med is 3 BB and 3 CA lol double what AH has AFTER they purchased round 1. That doesnt count an allied counter purchase, and rolling for mines.
Even if AH build only 1 transport and added a sub too they would still be screwed.We need balance and for that we need games played, but games played horribly are not going to help us get to balance, all they will do is give the naysayers that say its too early or we need to just figure out better CP strats more ammo.
This game as is, is unbalanced and it is nearly impossible (without crazy dice or blind allied player leaving Rome for the taking AH2 lol) for the CP to win -
@Uncrustable:
@Texas:
That still doesn’t answer how the UK defends against Germany if they are spending that much in India.� If the UK is spending that much in India, Germany is being played very poorly.
Why does UK have to defend against Germany ?
If Germany is spending on naval then Germany is being played very poorly lol
UK has absolutely nothing to fear from Germany, and as i said France can go toe-toe with Germany without losing its capital.
UK can spend almost all its income in India, USA lands in Italy turn 6 (12 units).
I honestly see no way (baring screwups or horrible dice) that the allies lose without doing it on purpose.The last game i played France collected 32 IPC on turn 3; 34 on 4 and on turn 5 actually had ratcheted all the way to 44.
Germany didnt send enough units towards Moscow and couldnt take it and at the same time didnt have near enough to pressure France in any way.
With Germany sending units to Moscow France has all day to secure Portugal; Morocco; Spain and 3+ tts in Africa.I have played 6 games now and tried about every CP strat i could think of.
As long as Russia masses infantry (with a few fighters) and retreats, it takes one hell of a CP force to take Moscow.
France and Russia both should build almost exclusively infantry with a few fighters mixed in, Germany can take Moscow eventually but by the time they do France is crashing through Ruhr en mass, and now atleast 1/3 of German forces are effectivly ‘out of service’ in MoscowIf Germany tries a France first strategy they will get to Paris and stall, now USA and UK are landing in Europe forcing Germany to retreat.
Russia if left unchecked can take meso, sweden, norway, persia, and can easily overwhelm 2 of the 3 CP powers on the Eastern front.
A-H cannot take Rome AND hold vs Russia, and if A-H is not trying to take Rome Italy will go through the swiss and even further hinder the German advance on ParisIf Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning. This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games. What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1? Are you not building their fleet back up? How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there? How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?
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Thats the thing, Texas, UK doesnt need to send anything to France, because they will hold their ground anyway.
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Thats the thing, Texas, UK doesnt need to send anything to France, because they will hold their ground anyway.
If the UK is spending everything in India, Germany doesn’t even have to worry about France.
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@Texas:
If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning. This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games. What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1? Are you not building their fleet back up? How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there? How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?
What? I cant make sense of this lol
Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)
Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P
The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.
Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into IndiaCP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.
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Im also convinced. I dont get the fact that Texas thinks France needs any help from Britain or Germany needs to build ships. France has no problems with Germany, even less is if you transport African armies to Europe, and Portuguese troops.
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We need to move Paris back east; 3 spaces from Berlin. On the other hand, I did get a large army into Burgundy. Then again, this was through Switzerland, so relocating Paris needs to be combined with beefing up the Swiss.
This was probably very tough to balance, but the Munich factory may be too much the other way.
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@Uncrustable:
@Texas:
If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning. This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games. What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1? Are you not building their fleet back up? How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there? How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?
What? I cant make sense of this lol
Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)
Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P
The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.
Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into IndiaCP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.
You basically just made my point for me. Germany has to dictate the UKs purchases and where. If the UK is spending everything in India, you have to get their attention and force them to split their buys. AH can capture Rome as early as the 5th turn, well before the Americans ever get close. Possibly earlier if they get favorable rolls. Also, if France and Russia go on the offensive, I would be overjoyed as a CP player as that is the main problem the CP player has in this game is they go too aggressive and lose way more troops attacking as the Allies do defending. Also, as far as the German Navy, yes, you need to buy a battleship every turn and a sub every now and then to force the Allies to protect their transports. Trust me on this one. If you ignore the sea with the CP, you have no chance of winning. You can’t allow the UK and US to freely land troops in Europe, you have to isolate France. Also, it forces them to also purchase warships rather than transports and land units. I have seen the CP win the majority of games and this is the basic strategy to winning.
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