This is a Alpha 3(final) triplea game question regarding G, J vs USA T3


  • This is semi-cryptic as I am lazy, but more importantly, if you understand it…then I definitely want your feedback, if you don’t, please ask a question and I will answer, but we are a bit scared of the implications of this scenario…especially if America doesn’t pull back to Panama…but how many folks will do that?

    T1
    In a nutshell G produces 1 cv, 1 trn saves 7.  J produces cv, trns(or combo, we haven’t decided).
    America produces?
    T2
    G produces 4cv, 1 destroyer (west germany). J produces cv, trns( or combo, we still aren’t sure)
    America…just what exactly should they produce with Japan parked off Carolina?

    T3
    G moves to W.Gibraltar.  J takes Hawaii in force?(depends)  Australia if not protected, etc(depend)  Panama etc.  Kills fleet.

    Our point is…can G and J tie up america such that J has free reign to win the game on VC?  I don’t like this scenario, and we have been tossing it around.  Frankly, we are going to start America first smack scenarios.  I am not sure they can recuperate in time.

    Any input is appreciated, especially if you have already thought this through.
    America produces


  • is fairly critical, and yet…we aren’t sure there are solutions as the builds are ambigious for G and J.

    Thanks.


  • You just broke the game, looks like Larry Harris didn’t think on that possibility  :cry:


  • One factor that occurred to me is the leeway you are giving the UK. They will probably guess Sealion is not happening after the 1TT buy on G1 and invest in an Egypt IC and not 9 Inf. I think you have to get 2TT with your 1CV and then buy 1 fewer CV on G2. I am also wary you might not be able to cover your 5 CVs with Air units, even if the UK did not scramble on G1 naval attacks. I understand surprise can be everything, but a competent Allied player should be able to cover it.
    In the Pacific I find US’s best move is to go to Australia, so when war breaks out they are covering the Southern money islands and the Carolines with the Naval Base’s 3 moves.
    Am not so sure if Japan can stretch to taking and keeping Hawaii as well as taking and holding 4 more in Asia. I think from Australia the US can threaten them either way.
    I find Japan has far too many enemies and struggles to hold them all at bay.


  • I realise I did not say what I would buy as the US.
    T1: CV, DD and Sub and 2 DD for the East.
    T2: : 3 Navy, maybe 1 Ft for Central and  TT in the East.
    Need to have map out to know exact balance of Navy and Air for a Hawaiian counterattack(if even possible on US3).
    I am assuming you would have attacked China on J1 and 2 and then take Hong Kong and Philippines on J3 as well as moving on Hawaii.
    How many TT do you expect to take to Hawaii? I would have dropped 2 Inf there on my US1.
    Will this also mean you could not deny Anzac their 10 at war Bonus? They would have dropped 2 Inf on New Guinea on 1 and on 2 moved one of them to Dutch NG. Unless you take one of those 2 territories or land on Solomons or New Briitain or take Malaya they double their money. US would be in SZ 54 on US2 with all the units they begin the game with.


  • Thank you as I have enjoyed thinking this one through.
    I always play as the Axis which is why I think I can see flaws in the plan(sorry!)
    I know how my Allied player frustrates my plans.

    I understand your reasoning too: the Axis only need to win on one side, so why not join forces to do so. As long as the Russians do not break through or UK land in France, European Axis should be able to do their job of staying alive.


  • LOL, Andy revealed this strat to you guys already. My purpose is to show why letting cv’s fighters convoy is broken.

    Anyway, lets see UK attack 5 german cv’s in z112, My first 5 hits are soak offs, and I am refining it so that the BB lives and 2 of the 5 starting subs live…this is achieved for the cost of the 2 german bombers…Don’t forget Italy has 2 ftrs to land on them. (Attacking z111 then retreating to z112 leaves 1 UK battleship, but gives Germany 2 subs regardless of UK scramble, this is achieved by sending both bombers to z111,2 subs, bb and thats it with Germany…assuming 3 German hits out of 5 pieces, I retreat, also assumes UK will scramble in case I hit 4 times…uk has 4 pieces, so assume 3 hits…damage the bb, remove two german bombers and you save the 2 subs, this permits 8 air units and 2 subs on z110 to discourage a scramble if they do, Germany can lose 2 tactical bombers which will be replaced by Italy’s 2 ftrs later)

    Anyway…

    z101 is vulnerable to 32 IPCs, z 89 west indies/mexico is another 3 IPCs, with the German trn you take west indies from Gibraltar and now USA loses 35 IPCs plus 5 National Objective for a total of -40…

    This only costs Germany 2 builds, its airforce and 4 land units…USSR is not at war yet, and Germany just digs in and lets Japan win on the pacific.

    We are just now testing it, I never wanted to reveal it until we refined it…Oh well, cats out of the bag now.

    We have a few US ideals for counters, except, if we Tie up USA with Germany, does that not achieve the aim?


  • I see now: you will give the US player the choice of taking out your German Carriers or defending against Japan. Tell  us how it goes.

  • TripleA

    Yes, germany can tie up the USA. Nothing really stops russia from holding up calcutta. or UK from flying in fighters to the seazone off of East USA. So Japan can get tied up too and Germany’s tieing up of USA can be subtracted by some of UK’s income.

    OR

    you can just let USA get convoyed and hold it up with infantry and keep spending in the pacific.

    It is only -35 from america, which is not the same as losing london or russia (countries in strategic positions). If germany dedicates that amount of stuff to sit there to convoy those amounts.


  • Wouldn’t the US and UK just buy a crap load of cheap subs? Once the Germans lost their small destroyer screen, all sub hits would have to be taken on the carriers. If the German fleet is off the US cost, the German fighters would have nowhere to land and would be lost. Or am I missing something?

  • TripleA

    Freedom Reign. The axis get to DOW on the allies first so your subs will likely be on defense unless you spread out destroyers to block an attack on them.

    You either build an atlantic fleet with USA or you don’t. Generally speaking, I prefer not to. I mean if germany wants to shove all that stuff right there, who cares, that is stuff that is not doing anything to UK or Russia or the med. It is only a strait up loss of income for USA and no gains for germany.

    It is the equivilent of losing London, except London is -30-37 allies and +8 germany.

    Plus nothing really stops USA from taking his pacific fleet and parking it in sz 89, forcing germany to retreat. Or if usa’s pacific fleet is mostly carrier fighter, you can kick him out with a strait up air attack. West USA reaches Japan sea zone and can sink Germany’s stuff.
    ~
    I mean I have done this strategy about a month after A3, it works, but it is not an I win button. People have different approaches to it.

    I tend to do this post sea lion in some games (generally I prefer to just spam inf to defend london, west germ, and italy while slugging my way to moscow post sea lion, because that is more fun and usually a london takeover automatically makes USA go heavy atlantic anyway so I have forced USA to dump rounds upon rounds of stuff in the atlantic).

    The strategy does work out, but you got to be really aggressive with Japan. Also you do need it to be a surprise somewhat.

    Most people don’t think, Germany is going to park a big fleet off the coast of America.


  • So the German fleet is convoying z101 on USA4?  By then the Americans have had a few turns to build up defense of Hawaii.

  • TripleA

    Yeah something like that. Ideally you want to do that to USA on turn 4. G2 place naval G3 move naval G4 convoy USA.

    Also it is really random the amount you convoy, you could do 10 sometimes and the full 32 at other times.

    Also if usa rolls up his fleet or makes a big fleet in the atlantic… and you got to back off… what do you do then? How are things looking with Russia and UK without your first 2 rounds of buy?

    Also when I declare war on Japan 1, I don’t even deal with America until Japan 3 or Japan 4 when they come in range (even then USA stays away). So it is not like USA is doing anything anyway. USA goes to Japan sea zone and gets blasted, no problem.

    For this reason it is the equivilent of doing sea lion, comparing it to sea lion we have these procs and cons…  pros: does not require ground units except for one transport loaded (just to have the threat of usa takeover or to nerf central usa factory) Cons: big commitment of air. Randomized ipc impact. No income reward. No VC reward.

    I guess you could add that another pro is screws with USA income rather than UK.
    ~
    Just try it and you will see how it plays it. It is fun. Good to do different things sometimes to spice games up.

    I still do my Japan 1 declaration of war strategy. All germany is doing is distracting USA for me in an otherwise full pacific USA game.

    I mean it is annoying if the allies are bringing stuff in to calcutta with russia or london money. USA can’t get there in time before I take it with Japan, but those countries can.


  • Hmmm OK so Russia is pretty much off the hook with Germany spending everything on carriers.  So how about if the far east troops march back to Amur on R2 and then on toward Kiangsu?

  • TripleA

    The same thing that happens in a normal game. As Japan, I want to avoid a confrontation with USA so I want to keep all my stuff together in SEA so if USA comes to me, I can sink usa with minimal losses. So Russia can do what it wants up there until I have the dutch islands and calcutta.

    Other people do things different, but if USA is at Hawaii… and can’t even dent my fleet and leaving SEA won’t cost me some islands… Sure I can swing back up top


  • OK so let me get this straight.  While the Japanese air force is off taking India and the DEI, the Russians (and Chinese!) are marching to Kiangsu and take it round 6.  There is no threat to Russia from Germany because they spent everything on carriers and sent the luftwaffe to convoy USA, so the Russians may be sending mechs and the red air force to China too.  With Germany doing nothing in Europe, the Americans can spend every dollar stacking Hawaii and the mega convoy raid finally starts eating into US production round 5.  So at that point how is Japan supposed to take both Hawaii and Kiangsu??  How long til India gets liberated?


  • First of all, who said you need India for a win?

    This strategy is a turn 5 or 6 win for the Pacific side, using, Phillipines, Hawaii, New Southwales, Japan, Kiangsu, and Kwangtung for 6 out of 8 cities.

    The theory, is to let America waste its resources sinking the expendable German fleet in the Atlantic so that the Japanese player wins by turn 5 or 6. Since, we can assume, that USA will suffer some losses sinking 5 carriers fully loaded with air units, 1 bb, 2 subs, 1 dd, and 1 cruiser……

    The goal is to capture Australia by turn  5 at the latest.

    The goal of the German distraction is to prevent a solid USA defense of Australia and Hawaii. Hawaii is the last city to capture, China is engaged and forces then withdraw to protect the 2 cities in Asia. The axis do not lose, if they surrender Germany and Italy, so my buddy and I are split on whether to even build land units in Europe, or to stream subs towards the USA with Italy and Germany until the capitals are taken. That debate is still ahead of us.

    If America takes losses engaging the German fleet, then I suspect Hawaii will fall. If they ignore the convoy, then Japan will outproduce them long term, so Germany may not want to surrender itself in that case.

    That is the concept we are testing at the moment. Stay tuned.


  • Its a neat idea, but I could see America just ignoring the convoy raid and making you go for the long haul like you said, then Russia creates problems for you in China.


  • occupy the USA and convoy raid them do death while japan wins in the pacific is the nut shell of this idea correct?

    seems possible… but not probable (imo).  look me up on tripleA, i’m on there most days  builder_chris and try it against me a few games and we will know if its a good idea or not.  my gut tells me…NOT…but than again i’ve never seen anyone try it.


  • Early tests show that Germany should stick to 4 carriers, have Italy build 1, this gives Germany the 2 transports turn 1 to fake a sea lion, also it permits the building of 1 dd and 2 more subs, for a total German fleet of bb,ca,dd,4cv,4 sub, 3trn. The Italian fleet varies based on UK moves. This causes UK to respond with all land units the first turn as normal, it maintains threat on Northern Russia and this leaves sufficient subs to convoy UK as well. Not sure if turn 3 naval build is needed, or whether an invasion of Spain is needed as well.

    For long term prospects, Germany still outproduces USSR, UK will not be able to build a fleet easily unless they swing one around and save money. If a German bomber survives turn 1, Bombing UK may be viable as a stalling tactic as well. German may be able to spare some air units if Japan is able to supply them with fighters in z101. (This can be achieved from New zealand sea zone number 63 via: z50,z61,z64,z89,z101)
    Still fine tuning this one, I like where it is going. Carriers being able to have air units convoy is a bit over powered I believe.

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