Pacific Turning Point: Midway or Guadalcanal


  • @ABWorsham:

    I once stated in football terms, that Midway was similar to Japan throwing a interception returned for a touchdown during a tied game. Guadalcanal was a 20 play drive for a touchdown.

    Since I know zero about football, I don’t grasp any of this – but your analogy sounds interesting.  Could you explain or restate it in different terms?


  • I thought it pretty too Wors, but wasn’t going to say: eh?
    Funny how we speak the same language, but still are worlds apart at times.


  • @Imperious:

    The turning point was when Japan attacked USA.

    Japan winning those battles only postpones the the final result.

    Japan needed to finish off China, or settle that war by armistice.

    Then take the dutch assets and the British alone and consolidate for 10 years.

    The reason why japan attacked indonesia and UK was because they needed the resources for the war in china.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I once stated in football terms, that Midway was similar to Japan throwing a interception returned for a touchdown during a tied game. Guadalcanal was a 20 play drive for a touchdown.

    Ok for those of you NON-Americans/Canadians.

    Imagine a game of what we call Soccer, or you call football.  It’s the FIFA World cup 2013 CHAMPIONSHIP game.

    The game is tied… Japan Vs America.

    Japan is about half to 75% way down the field towards the American goal, they look like they might score.  Then their guy suddenly kicks the ball to an American player in front of him, who is totally uncovered/unblocked and takes the ball all the way back down to the Japanese net where he finds the Japanese goalie having a nap, or NOT THERE AT ALL, and Scores!

    Guadalcanal was a 20 play drive for a touchdown

    This is like taking the ball from your net, and slowly passing it up the field over a 10 to 15 minute period, where it’s been ALL HARD WORK, and then you finally score, without having let up any ground, or let the ball be touched by any defenders.

  • '10

    Without Midway, would the US have been able to send the landing force to Guadalcanal when they did?


  • @Col.:

    Without Midway, would the US have been able to send the landing force to Guadalcanal when they did?

    If I recall correctly, there wasn’t much carrier involvement (on either side) during the Guadalcanal campaign.  I think it was mainly surface surface ships that participated.  If so, then the results of Midway might not be significant on the course of Guadalcanal one way or the other.


  • Am not a Pacific historian, but was there no Carrier action on Guadalcanal because the Japanese had lost 4 Carriers at Midway?
    Where were Japan’ s remaining Carriers at the end of 42?

  • '10

    Yeah, but does the US send a fleet knowing there are 4 carriers out there?

    Like Wittman said, there wasn’t any carrier action because Japan just lost four carriers at Midaway.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @CWO:

    @Col.:

    Without Midway, would the US have been able to send the landing force to Guadalcanal when they did?

    If I recall correctly, there wasn’t much carrier involvement (on either side) during the Guadalcanal campaign.  **I think it was mainly surface surface ships that participated.**  If so, then the results of Midway might not be significant on the course of Guadalcanal one way or the other.

    Are you implying that the Carriers were submersible?:P


  • @Gargantua:

    @CWO:

    @Col.:

    Without Midway, would the US have been able to send the landing force to Guadalcanal when they did?

    If I recall correctly, there wasn’t much carrier involvement (on either side) during the Guadalcanal campaign.�  **I think it was mainly surface surface ships that participated.**�  If so, then the results of Midway might not be significant on the course of Guadalcanal one way or the other.

    Are you implying that the Carriers were submersible?:P

    Absolutely they are submersible, the USA put plenty of Jap CVs underwater. They just don’t come back up very easily.

  • Customizer

    Midway was most certainly the turning point. Japanese carriers were even more precious than the US’s. Yamamoto who was probably the most appreciative of carrier-based warfare was still starry eyed for that big battleship showdown that the Japanese had planned their entire navy around for decades. The battle of Midway was modern navy against modern navy. Japan had formed itself in the past ironically molding itself to be the barbarian empire they believed they were superior to. Japan believed in the spirit of the warrior to be paramount and that tactics and weapons were essentially window dressing. That is why Midway was so decisive. Few commanders and politicians in Japan appreciated the carrier vs. battleships. This is also reflected their submarine warfare tactics all geared for massive sea battles between capital ships slugging it out in a massive gun fight. The carrier ensured this would not happen and a massive and decisive engagement between fleets was avoided simply by carrier aircraft being able to spot his enemy more quickly and running away.


  • Where were Japan’ s remaining Carriers at the end of 42?

    The Battle of the Eastern Solomons and the Battle of Santa Cruz were the two major Carrier Battles of Guadalcanal. The Battle of Eastern Solomons left the Ryūjō sunk and Big E damaged.

    The Battle of Santa Cruz was,in my opinion the most interesting of all the Carrier battles of WWII. It saw Japan use 3 fleet carriers and a light carrier and the Americans just 2 carriers. Part of the Japanese plan also had battleships and heavy cruisers shelling Henderson Field.

    The battle left the U.S and Japan with one less carrier each and many others damaged, some very badly. Japan lost most of the rest of it’s elite carrier air crews. Henderson field would suffer much damage from 14’’ and 8’’ shells but still remain operational.


  • Thanks Worsham.
    Am sure both sides have a Carrier in  A&A’s Guadalcanal, so thought(should have looked it up) there were some at the battle.


  • I believe the Battle of Santa Cruz was Japan’s best carrier battle. The leadership made sound decision, pilots preformed great. What cost the Japanese in the battle was having underpowered planes with no armor and self sealing fuel tanks. The battle cost Japan more air crews than Coral Sea, Midway and  Eastern Solomon combine.

    After this battle Japan retired its carrier fleet to replace aircrews and replace the carrier force; while waiting for chance to destroy the U.S Fleet. However when this battle did happen, the U.S was flying from the carrier decks second generation fighters, whereas Japan was still flying first generation type planes.


  • Thanks again. Meant to look up the battle. Must have got waylaid!
    Do you like WW2 and Civil War in equal measure, or do you have a favourite, Worsham?


  • For me “turning point” means when Japan lost its momentum to launch attacks and past the point where they had any hope of winning the war. Though midway certainly slowed Japan down significantly they still had like three carriers by 1942. After the battle of Santa Cruz America had one heavily damaged Enterprise up against Japan’s 3 fleet carriers, and after Savo Island we had to pull out all our cargo ships attacking Guadalcanal and left the marines to fend for themselves for months before they were reinforced. Through most of the Guadalcanal campaign Japan had logistical superiority and had the means and resources to supply and arm men putting 35,000 men into the islands. By this time Japan was still quite capable of matching America in in terms of ships and manpower but after the 6 month Guadalcanal campaign Japan had lost most of its experienced air crews and more importantly, America held off Japan for their industry to be capable of outmatching Japan. If Japan had better soldiers and tactics and had won Guadalcanal the war would have continued for much longer and would have been far from defeated and the war would have dragged on.

    Bottom line US doesn’t achieve an uncontested superiority over the Japanese in production and ships until after they defeated Japan at Guadalcanal because they kept loosing carriers in the battles of Coral Sea, Midway and Santa Cruz and did not replace these losses until after the battle.

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