How should I bomb UK?

[Guest]

So the German battleship, cruiser, aircraft carrier with 2 fighters, and 2 subs can sit in 109 costing the UK 6IPCs per turn for a long time, and it would be costly to remove them.

[Guest]

Well 2 or 3 turns would be 18IPCs lost to UK if 2 subs were parked in 109, but I think I still like the idea of going with bombers instead of the carrier.  They can strategically bomb UK on G2 and they can also be used against the USSR: first to strategic bomb Leningrad on G3, and then to tactically bomb Leningrad on G4 along with the armies from Finland, Baltic states, and transports.  The bombers are much more useful I think.

[Omega1759]

@Vance:

So the German battleship, cruiser, aircraft carrier with 2 fighters, and 2 subs can sit in 109 costing the UK 6IPCs per turn for a long time, and it would be costly to remove them.

With that equipment in 109 you would take 8 IPC from UK.

109 is in range of 91. Let the American come to you and take them apart when they come of 91. Then, come back to 109, if possible.

[Guest]

Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.

[Omega1759]

@Vance:

Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.

It’s one per surface warship according to rules OOB. Don’t know if that has changed…

[Ruanek]

@Omega1759:

@Vance:

Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.

It’s one per surface warship according to rules OOB. Don’t know if that has changed…

No, it’s the same.  1 per surface ship, 2 per sub, 3 per German sub.

[Guest]

OK here is another idea for bombing UK on G1.  Suppose I want to take out their destroyers so that my subs have an easier time and/or UK spends a lot of money replacing them.  I also want to keep the ships in 110 out of the Mediterranean.  Maybe I could try this:

2 subs to 106
1 sub, Norway fighter, 2 West Germany fighters and 1 tactical bomber to 111
1 sub, battleship, cruiser, Germany tactical bomber to 112
1 sub and Holland fighter to 109
Germany bomber and 2 West Germany tactical bombers hit UK naval base and possibly factory if all 3 planes get through. Note that UK must decide whether to use 3 fighters as interceptors (which hit on 2) or scramblers (which hit on 4).  If the naval base is made inoperable the ships in 110 cannot reach sea zone 92 on UK1 and Italy may well have taken Gibraltar by UK2.
All land units in range attack France, Yugoslavia, Finland, Bulgaria.
Poland tactical bomber and Slovakia fighter help out in Yugoslavia en route to S Italy.

The battles in 109 and 111 might only be 1 round in order to take out the destroyers but limit risk of losing planes.  Hopefully we just lose subs we can afford but they lose destroyers they cannot afford to replace.

[Omega1759]

@Vance:

OK here is another idea for bombing UK on G1.  Suppose I want to take out their destroyers so that my subs have an easier time and/or UK spends a lot of money replacing them.  I also want to keep the ships in 110 out of the Mediterranean.  Maybe I could try this:

2 subs to 106
1 sub, Norway fighter, 2 West Germany fighters and 1 tactical bomber to 111
1 sub, battleship, cruiser, Germany tactical bomber to 112
1 sub and Holland fighter to 109
Germany bomber and 2 West Germany tactical bombers hit UK naval base and possibly factory if all 3 planes get through. Note that UK must decide whether to use 3 fighters as interceptors (which hit on 2) or scramblers (which hit on 4).  If the naval base is made inoperable the ships in 110 cannot reach sea zone 92 on UK1 and Italy may well have taken Gibraltar by UK2.
All land units in range attack France, Yugoslavia, Finland, Bulgaria.
Poland tactical bomber and Slovakia fighter help out in Yugoslavia en route to S Italy.

The battles in 109 and 111 might only be 1 round in order to take out the destroyers but limit risk of losing planes.  Hopefully we just lose subs we can afford but they lose destroyers they cannot afford to replace.

Bad idea, your 109 attack will be defeated easily with scrambles

[Omega1759]

Thanks for the comments, I think I decided I would move one of the tacs from 110 to 112. Would you scramble?

@mantlefan:

Thanks for taking the time to explain a legal strat to us in detail.
Seems decent. If you have to  leave a UK BB alive it’s probably better ot leave the one in 111 alive as long as you have overwhelming odds in 110.

Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship) Yeah, I might use a plane here. It’s hard to say whether to take the Slovak ftr or a tac from 110. With this I could actually see Germany losing the sub and taking a hit on the BB often enough to make this a scary battle.

Let’s say however that only the BB got damaged.

Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118) Almost always the best thing to do with those 2 subs. Since the sub survives in 112, our luck is not so good as to keep both of these ones.

Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 bomber 3 tactical (W. Germany) + 2 fighters (1 from Holland, 1 from Norway: none of these to south Italy)
Germany will be doing 4 hits here in all likelihood. UK will hit either the cruiser or the BB leaving 1 sub, and 2 ftrs, meaning the krauts take 1 ftr and 1 tac. That leaves 2 tac 1 bmb vs 2 ftr. Germany probably wouldn’t retreat with only 2 UK planes left.

Honestly as UK I doubt I’d scramble here, since Germany will get at least 4 hits most of the time, 5 is not a stretch. I guess I could just be happy with Germany having “wasted” the extra rolls of those planes.

So Germany keeps 1 sub and loses no planes.

Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 4 tanks, 1 tactical from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia) I really think you need to plan for if not just expect 1 aa hit there. I know it’s less than 50/50, but we all know poop happens and this is such an important battle for Germany that it seems like more poop will happen.

So Germany (I count mech inf as inf for simplicity) has
8 inf, 3 art, 4 tanks, 1 tac
7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks 1 ftr, 1 aa
France^

Round 1 5/6 hits for Germany (let’s say 5 since planning for slightly lower dice doesn’t take into consideration planning for the worst, which also happens all too often lol. This analysis might be a little too friendly compared to the axis dice my group usually sees round 1 :) )

Allies get 4-5, let’s say 5

So Round 2
3 inf 3 art 4 tanks 1 tac
3 inf 2 art 2 tank 1 ftr

Germany Gets 4-5, let’s say 4
Allies get 3-4, let’s say 3 this time.

Round 3:
3 art, 4 tanks, 1 tac
1 art, 2 tank, 1 ftr

Germany Gets 3-4, let’s say all 4 this time.
Allies get 2 ish.
Germany loses 4 inf 4 mechs 2 art. And that’s with quite even dice. Germany hit the lower end of average twice, higher once, allies hit the higher end of average once and lower once, as well as dead-on once, and the AA of course. That’s dangerously close to getting into German tanks. But,  I think if you want Normandy it’s the route you need to go.

Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical from Germany, 2 fighters ( 2 from W Germany) You should be able to walk away with the tank pretty reliably. It’s good to get those ftrs into action while still getting to S. Italy.

Yugo Bulg Finland are fine of course.

[Adalwolf]

@mantlefan:

Really, in situations where the land and sea are under attack, they can just hold back their ftrs and rape your Tac bombers.

I’m not exactly sure what the benefit of bombing the airbase so heavily is. UK never needs to spend more than 4 getting it operational again, and the Germans risk a lot once UK has 4 or 5 ftrs on London.

With a new rule, repairs to capitol ships and facilities should be paid for at the beginning of your next turn (ie “Purchase & repair units”), but do not come into effect until the end of the turn (ie “Mobilize new units”).  That would make it worthwhile.

[Jennifer]

Agreed, i think repairing your ships should cost something…maybe 4 IPC Carrier, 6 IPC Battleboat or something.

[Guest]

Honestly the way I read the rules, I thought it already worked that way.  I assumed that bombing facilities would take them out of action for a turn.  Its seem pointless to bomb something and the defender simply pays a small penalty to fix it and can use it right away.  My 2 cents is that repairs should not come into effect until the mobilize new units phase of the turn on which they paid for them.  Otherwise why would anyone ever bother bombing anything??

[Jennifer]

@Vance:

Honestly the way I read the rules, I thought it already worked that way.  I assumed that bombing facilities would take them out of action for a turn.  Its seem pointless to bomb something and the defender simply pays a small penalty to fix it and can use it right away.  My 2 cents is that repairs should not come into effect until the mobilize new units phase of the turn on which they paid for them.  Otherwise why would anyone ever bother bombing anything??

Being able to repair makes sense.  Otherwise, you can simply keep bombing your enemy preventing them from building ever, and then collect a HUGE payday when you decide it’s time to take them.  Since they cannot both repair and build, so why would they ever repair?

[Guest]

If you want to bomb them, you first have to build the bombers and then risk losing them to interceptors and AA, so you have to decide.  The defender has to decide whether they want to repair so they can use the facility next turn, or to do without the services of the facility and use the money some other way.  You both have to think much more carefully.  Imagine if you bomb their IC and they can mobilize fewer infantry next turn, or you bomb their naval base so the 109 destroyer can’t reach 106 next turn.  I am still learning the game so I just assumed this must be how you play it. It made sense to me.

[Jennifer]

@Vance:

If you want to bomb them, you first have to build the bombers and then risk losing them to interceptors and AA, so you have to decide.  The defender has to decide whether they want to repair so they can use the facility next turn, or to do without the services of the facility and use the money some other way.  You both have to think much more carefully.  Imagine if you bomb their IC and they can mobilize fewer infantry next turn, or you bomb their naval base so the 109 destroyer can’t reach 106 next turn.  I am still learning the game so I just assumed this must be how you play it. It made sense to me.

That’s already true, however.  If you do not repair, then you cannot build as many units or move as far.  But if I have to spend 20 IPC repairing Berlin and Frankfurt (combined value) and wait an entire round, hoping I dont get bombed again (and I probably will) to build units, then the Russians are going to be in Berlin without 4 or 5 rounds.  I’ll get get a couple a couple Strategics (whatever I can buy for 2 rounds) and send them and 5 fighters to Russia, then use them to bomb Germany each round while the Russians walk forward.  Germany won’t be able to stop them, since even 1 point of damage stops that complex from building anything for an entire round.  Meanwhile, all reinforcements come from France, W. France and S. France (limit 9) while Russia can buy up to 14 units a round.  Fine, so England is taken, but I shut down both major complexes in Germany.

[Guest]

Yeah you’re right that it might be too harsh for ICs and screw everything up.  But what about the air & naval bases (and maybe capitol ships)?  Suppose the rule were that damage to ICs is paid for and repaired during the buy units phase so that ICs can be used right away (albeit expensively after a bombing raid), but repairs to bases and big ships are not done until the mobilize units phase?  That way they could be put out of action and there would be a tactical reason to bomb them, in addition to the strategic economic goal of making it expensive.

For example, Germany might attack UK air bases a turn before they intend to launch a sea lion invasion so that fighters will not be able to scramble to protect ships during the naval battle in 110.  In response, UK desperately uses fighters as interceptors to repel the attacks on the air bases, but Germany brings escort fighters…. a scenario which happened for real in August 1940 as the Battle of Britain.

[Jennifer]

Air and Naval bases might be appropriate for repairs to take place during place new units.  I could even see warship repairs applying if they remained at a naval base for a full round. (ie, they cannot move to a naval base or just start there and move away, they have to remain at the naval base (or go from one to another in a single round) before their repairs are applied, and the application occurs at the same time as new units are placed.)

[Guest]

On second thought, hitting a UK airbase wouldn’t necessarily keep it out of action for the sea lion invasion, but UK would have to pay to repair it.  UK planes would lose the extra range next turn though.  Also, hitting the naval base under this scheme would limit the range of UK’s ships on their next turn so they couldn’t hit German subs in 106 with a destroyer leaving 109.  Something like that.

[suprise attack]

3 of my last 4 games I was Germany and I did sea lion on all three and my U.K. opponent was the same person in all 3 games and each time he prepared better (more pieces on London) and in the third game I bombed the HELL out of London. I cant remember if I sent in 2 or 3 Tact.s but the Strat. went for the factory and cost him $ to repair the facility so he could put out larger deployments he also needed to repair his Air base and Naval base. I lost one Bomber he had to pay repairs, he spent more than I lost
  If you get the same country a few times and you get bored with it or want a change or diff. look try it

[theROCmonster]

If capital ships, battleships and carriers, cost money to repair, why would anyone ever buy capital ships? If it was 1 dollar the owner of the piece had to pay that might work, but the repair would have to take place at the beggining of the turn. Otherwise Battleships that cost 20 could be replaced by a cruiser and a destroyer that even though you might take a hit and loose your destroyer, you 1. dont have to pay for the 1 dollar to repair the ship (and in commanderJens plan for ship repairs 4 for carrier and 6 for battleship that is a whole sub!) 2. you don’t have to worry about your battleship not being able to attack after being attacked/after attacking. Because if you are attacked you now cant use your battleship to attack on the subsequent turn if he retreats because being worried about taking battleship as loss. and subs costing 6 dollars you can buy 10 subs for 3 battleships, and if battelships cost money to repair why not just hit the battleships with cheap subs and retreat? battleships as is aren’t even that great. Carriers are very good but has no attack power and only defends on 2. Making them weaker isn’t a good idea either. The game designers obviously understood that having carriers and battleships being able to be repaired at the beggining of the turn was a good idea. Remember you can’t repair unless at a naval base unlike all over axis and allies boards. Subs are now 6 dollars instead of 8 like in revised. So while battleships get worse by not being able to repair unless at a naval yard and the fact that you don’t automatically repair at the end of your round. Why make capital ships worse when to begin with they aren’t that great in the first place?