Naval Battles

[IMS]

Forgive me if these have been asked before.

In the 1984 version, which was the only version I have ever played, sumbarines could “sneak attack” which meant you would use one move, attack and then one move back with the deffender not firing. any hits were removed from the board. (as long as a destroyer is not present)

In the 1942 rules, subs can sneak attack, which means they get to roll first, which they would anyway. any hits would be put on the casualty board. It appears if I understand correctly that the casualties do not fire back, but it says nothing of the sub leaving, so does the attacking sub get “attacked” by any defending ships left in the battle?

Also, Say I have a battleship and a cruiser, I am sneak attacked by a sub.  Does the attacker have to declare what he is attacking?  Basically, I took a hit, and of course gave it to my battleship, then I took him out with my cruiser. being the battleship only took one hit, I got to place it back on the board having no casualties.  which kind of sucks for the attacker.

[thetoof]

the sub would not be able to “submerge” til after the defender fires, but any casualties from the sub’s “sneak attack” would be removed from the board as they would not be able to fire during the defender’s phase (unless there was a destroyer to negate the sneak attack or the only casualty was one hit to a battleship)

Defender always chooses casualties btw, so if you have a battleship and a cruiser, and all he had was a sub, he would fire with the sub on the sneak attack…if it hit you chose the battleship taking one hit, if he had no other attackers then he cannot fire during the regular attack phase, then you fired back and hit the sub…sub is destroyed and your pieces would be put back into the naval zone where they came from with no damage because the battleship only took one hit…hope that helped

[Krieghund]

Thetoof is correct.  Any surviving defending units will be able to return fire before the attacking sub can retreat or submerge.  This is also true in Classic.

[IMS]

makes sense. thanks for the replies

IMS

[IMS]

Another question on subs, when sneak attacking, does the sub act like the AA gun in which it gets to take a shot for every ship defending in the first round?

So basically if the defender had 1 battleship and 2 cruisers, and they were sneak attacked by 1  sub, would the sub roll for each ship? or does it just get to roll once and then the defender gets to roll?

thanks

IMS

[Krieghund]

Each sub rolls one die.

[IMS]

So the only “real” advantage to sneak attack would be to have more subs than the defending ships, possibly taking out the defender without the defender getting to counter at all.

Thanks

IMS

[Krieghund]

Not really.  Anything hit by a sub won’t fire back (with some exceptions).  Less units firing at you is always an advantage.

[gnasape]

Krieghund,

If a sub engages another sub in battle.

The attacking sub decides whether to attack or submerge.

The defending sub decides whether to defend or submerge.

So if the attacking sub decides to attack and the defending sub decides to submerge, does the attacking sub fire first, than the defending sub submerges if attacking sub misses or there is no battle as the defender submerged?

Thank you,

[Krieghund]

In theory, firing is simultaneous, so when both subs fire the defending sub’s torpedo is in the water before it is hit.  This allows it to fire even if eliminated.  However, in practice actual simultaneous action is not practical, so the attacker acts first, but the results are still simultaneously applied.

This principle also applies to submerging.  Since fire is simultaneous, the decision to submerge instead of firing is also simultaneous.  In your example, when the attacking sub fires, the defending sub is already submerging, so it can’t be hit.

[gnasape]

Thanks Krieghund.  That’s what I thought but wanted to get the official answer.

[gn0m]

I have another question regarding naval battles; offshore bombardment can only occur in combination with amphibeus assaults, right? Also, can cruisers/battle ships offshore bombard each round in the battle or only the first round?

Thanks in advance

[HolKann]

Welcome gn0me!

@gn0m:

I have another question regarding naval battles; offshore bombardment can only occur in combination with amphibeus assaults, right? Also, can cruisers/battle ships offshore bombard each round in the battle or only the first round?

Thanks in advance

Offshore bombardment only occurs in combination with amphibeous assault. The bombardments occur only in the first round. The amount of bombardments is the lesser of 1. the amount of land units engaging “amphibeously” (= moving from a transport ship into a hostile territory) or 2. the amount of ships able to do a bombardment (= cruisers and battleships engaging in the amphibeous assault). Enemy units hit by an offshore bombardment are allowed to return fire.

Note that it is not possible to take any hits dealt by the defending player onto your ships during an amphibeous assault. The assaulting ships do not engage in the combat directly, but are only allowed a first round die roll to deal some extra damage to the defending player’s units in the assaulted territory.

[gn0m]

@HolKann:

Welcome gn0me!

Thank you!  :wink:

@gn0m:

I have another question regarding naval battles; offshore bombardment can only occur in combination with amphibeus assaults, right? Also, can cruisers/battle ships offshore bombard each round in the battle or only the first round?

Thanks in advance

@HolKann:

Offshore bombardment only occurs in combination with amphibeous assault. The bombardments occur only in the first round. The amount of bombardments is the lesser of 1. the amount of land units engaging “amphibeously” (= moving from a transport ship into a hostile territory) or 2. the amount of ships able to do a bombardment (= cruisers and battleships engaging in the amphibeous assault). Enemy units hit by an offshore bombardment are allowed to return fire.

Note that it is not possible to take any hits dealt by the defending player onto your ships during an amphibeous assault. The assaulting ships do not engage in the combat directly, but are only allowed a first round die roll to deal some extra damage to the defending player’s units in the assaulted territory.

Alright, that was what I thought. Thanks for the quick answer!

[gamerman01]

@Krieghund:

In theory, firing is simultaneous, so when both subs fire the defending sub’s torpedo is in the water before it is hit.  This allows it to fire even if eliminated.  However, in practice actual simultaneous action is not practical, so the attacker acts first, but the results are still simultaneously applied.

This principle also applies to submerging.  Since fire is simultaneous, the decision to submerge instead of firing is also simultaneous.  In your example, when the attacking sub fires, the defending sub is already submerging, so it can’t be hit.

Krieghund, I’m having trouble with this one.  I was poring over the rulebook on subs and combat this weekend to answer this very question.  I attacked a sub with a sub. 
I don’t have the rulebook with me right now, but I remember it said (under submarines) that attacking subs roll first, and casualties are chosen.  Then defending submarines roll and casualties are chosen.  (Then “normal” units roll)  It also says that anytime a sub can roll, it can submerge instead.  I only see one way of interpreting these rules, and that is that an attacking sub would roll, and if it hit (yes, mine did) then the defending sub would be chosen as a casualty.  Then it would be the defenders turn to roll, and since his sub was hit, of course he would roll.
This is a significant rule interpretation, because if subs can’t hit a sub-only seazone (because they will usually submerge immediately), then a destroyer is the only unit that can possibly attack a sea zone with sub(s).
According to your answer then, a sub doesn’t really have a surprise strike capability against enemy destroyers OR sub only sea-zones.
Do you still stand by your original answer?
Thanks.  I really appreciate all the clarifications you’ve given us in the past.  It’s unfortunate that so many clarifications are necessary, but it’s amazing how many different situations arise in this game.

[gnasape]

gamer,

For AA 50:

"Page 30 of the rulebook,

Submersible: Anytime a submarine would otherwise roll the die to attack or defend, it can submerge instead. This
removes it from the combat—it can no longer attack or take hits in that combat. Whenever a round of combat starts and a submarine is in combat with only aircraft, it can submerge (before aircraft fire)."

"Page 18,

Step 2. Attacking Units Fire
Submarines have the Surprise Strike ability. Both attacking and defending submarines fire before other combat units during a sea battle. (See “Surprise Strike” in Unit Profi les: Submarines, pg. 30.)"

If you link the two rules, the sub vs. sub battle would look like this.

1. Attacker chooses to attack a sz with a sub with a sub.

2. Attacking units fire but since both attacking and defending subs fire before other units do (or at same time in theory).  The subs can decide to attack/defend or submerge.

3. Resolve either attack/defend or submerge.

4. If subs submerge, than the submersible ability takes effect “which removes it from combat - it can no longer attack or take hits in that combat.”

Result:

Attacking sub attacks and the defending sub sumberges, even if the attacker hits, the submersible ability allows it to survive.

For AA 1942 based on AA 50 rules but clarified.

Attacking sub decides to attack or submerge first

Defending sub decides to attack or submerge next.

But this also needs to be tied in with the submersible ability.

The reason why I asked the question originally was that for Revised, one of the attacks UK does on UK1 is to attack the Japanese sub with a UK sub.

With the AA50/AA 1942 rules, this is not possible as the Japanese sub will submerge immediately.

That’s my interpretation but I wanted to confirm with Krieghund to avoid any issues as our group was having a FTF AA 1942 game.

[gnasape]

Putting this back for Krieghund, so he doesn’t miss it.

@gamerman01:

@Krieghund:

In theory, firing is simultaneous, so when both subs fire the defending sub’s torpedo is in the water before it is hit.  This allows it to fire even if eliminated.  However, in practice actual simultaneous action is not practical, so the attacker acts first, but the results are still simultaneously applied.

This principle also applies to submerging.  Since fire is simultaneous, the decision to submerge instead of firing is also simultaneous.  In your example, when the attacking sub fires, the defending sub is already submerging, so it can’t be hit.

Krieghund, I’m having trouble with this one.  I was poring over the rulebook on subs and combat this weekend to answer this very question.  I attacked a sub with a sub. 
I don’t have the rulebook with me right now, but I remember it said (under submarines) that attacking subs roll first, and casualties are chosen.  Then defending submarines roll and casualties are chosen.  (Then “normal” units roll)  It also says that anytime a sub can roll, it can submerge instead.  I only see one way of interpreting these rules, and that is that an attacking sub would roll, and if it hit (yes, mine did) then the defending sub would be chosen as a casualty.  Then it would be the defenders turn to roll, and since his sub was hit, of course he would roll.
This is a significant rule interpretation, because if subs can’t hit a sub-only seazone (because they will usually submerge immediately), then a destroyer is the only unit that can possibly attack a sea zone with sub(s).
According to your answer then, a sub doesn’t really have a surprise strike capability against enemy destroyers OR sub only sea-zones.
Do you still stand by your original answer?
Thanks.  I really appreciate all the clarifications you’ve given us in the past.  It’s unfortunate that so many clarifications are necessary, but it’s amazing how many different situations arise in this game.

[gamerman01]

Thanks, gnasape.  I appreciate your reply, which was well worded.  However, I’m not 100% convinced yet.  Thanks also for posting it up for Krieghund again.  I would like to hear him weigh in on this issue again.  Perhaps he can word it a bit differently so I can understand how your answers (lone subs can’t hit lone subs on attack if defender wants to submerge) are definitely in line with the rule book.

[Krieghund]

The sequence of events on page 16 of the rulebook for combat step 2 indicate that submerging occurs before surprise strikes do.

[gnasape]

@Krieghund:

The sequence of events on page 16 of the rulebook for combat step 2 indicate that submerging occurs before surprise strikes do.

Krieghund, you are probably refering to AA 1942 rulebook, my page 16 of the AA 50 rulebook shows (tanks and blitzing, transports, and phase 4 conduct combat?  Where can we get the same reference in the AA50 rulebook?

AA 1942 rulebook clarified issues but AA50 rulebook is still a little off

Thank you in advance for your “crystal ball” knowledge.