I wasn’t saying that your idea was bad.
But yes, that makes sense.
NEW BREAKTHROUGH CHARTS
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You guys think that stuff is cool? I created an Empire builders version with my play group a few years ago, We had 10 different countries, each one with specific national abilities, in 5 categories ( Air, Land, Sea, Economic, SUPER) Done over many attempts with many lessons learned,
It was actually incredibly balanced, and made for some intense games! We used laminated maps from Napolean at war so we could Color in our Empires with dry-erase markers as we expanded, and often battled it out with 300-400 IPC a turn incomes. What a bloodbath! Absolutely incredible! … But anyways. I thought I would share a few of the Excellent techs/abilites we developed.
Keep in mind these were all country specific, but they could be adapted to TECH.
Here’s a few that I remember
LAND
(CAN) - Crack troops, 5 of your infantry a game round get to roll 2 dice
(CAN) - Volunteers, You can place up to 3 inf on the front line, in a territory you have controlled from the beginning of the game.
(JAP) - Crazed Island Defenders, 1 jap inf always hits on the first round of combat on defense.NAVAL
(GER) - Really Super Subs - Subs move 3 (These were for convoy use) Became an incredible tool in any game with Convoys.
(UK) - Flagships (British Battleships ALWAYS hit on the first round of naval combat. (Not on Bombard)AIR
(JAP) - Flaming Glory - fgts lost roll 1d2 to make a kill after taken as a casualty. (Deadly :D)
(GBR) - Ejection seats - if fgt is lost adjacent to friendly territory, place a free inf there.ECONOMIC
*This seems to be REALLY missing from alot of peoples variants, it really balances the game dynamics.(JAP) Tech-Factory - All Your current and future factoriers produce 3 IPC’s a turn for you
(RUS) Infantry-Factory - All Your current and future factoriers produce an infantry a turn (As long as there are less then 5 infantry there)
(GER) Tank-Factory - cost 20, makes a free tank a turn for you, and adds the territory value to your production limit for Tanks. (so Germany at 10 IPC’s can now buildup to 10 arm 10 anything else)
(USA) 1 super complex. You can build 1 factory at 1 point in a territory that can produce unlimited prodution.
(USA) Buy Neutral Countries - You can spend 3 IPC’s a turn for a die (1 or 2) to have a Neutral join your side Economically. (est 3 ipc per neutral, they can be captured by the enemy)
SUPER
Anti-air / Anti-tank guns - Your AA Guns can now either choose to shoot at Air or at Armor - This is from the old Xeno Games days.
(JAP) Kamikaze’s - pay 6 IPC’s for each, can place up to 3 under any of your Ind cmplx’s, can choose to pre-emptive attack on yours or your opponents turn, against targets you disern. Roll 1d2.
The gf wants me to go so I gotta jet, but I hope someone else gets some enjoyment out of these.
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You guys think that stuff is cool? I created an Empire builders version…
… But anyways. I thought I would share a few of the Excellent techs/abilites we developed.
Thank you, but no thank you! Too much ganja :mrgreen: in those techs, hence no reality and game balance. Not cool enough for me. Come up with a balanced and historical tech for navy and I will be very :-D
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@Imperious:
…I might make this move 3 cruiser under the Battlecruisers tech because these also represent pocket battleships which would appear out of nowhere, sink a lonely ship and then hide before a cruiser group could catch it. I would not make the BC a 4 attack unit.
The battlecruiser is a ship as large as a battleship, with the big guns of a battleship, and the sea speed of the fleetest cruiser, but with considerably less armor than a battleship. They were to revolutionize cruiser design. After this new type of capital ship came into service all previous armored cruisers were instantly obsolete.
They would scout for the battle fleet (in which role they could brush aside the armored cruisers that the enemy customarily deployed to foil such scouts), they could equally prevent enemy scout cruisers from approaching the battle fleet. They could chase and dispatch “cripples” after a battle. They would also be tremendously useful in running down and destroying enemy commerce raiders on the high seas.
From the beginning, battlecruisers had their detractors. They were criticized for being too big, too expensive, and too lightly armored. They were called “white elephants” and “deviates”. But when the Germans, and later the Japanese, started laying down improved (and much better protected) versions in response to the British battlecruisers, the type was clearly here to stay. Except for the pure battlecruiser there are other battlecruiser-style ships, sometimes called “super cruisers,” “large cruisers” or “pocket battleships”.
The first battlecruisers (the Invincibles) were contemporary to the Dreadnought, the first modern battleship; the last battlecruisers (the Alaskas) were contemporaries of the last battleships, the Iowas. As the improved battlecruisers got bigger and better protected, the improved Dreadnoughts got bigger and faster, until finally the two types merged into the third generation fast battleships of World War II. Ships so large that they could combine the heavy armor of battleships, and the speed of battlecruisers, in the same hull.
So Impy, why not attack and defend on 4 as well as as a move of 3. What is your suggestion to make battlecruisers worth pursuing?
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One variant of Fast Capital Ships that would be historical correct is:
Fast Capital Ships
Your aircraft carriers, cruisers and battleships are now faster and have a move of 3.This might be a better tech than Battlecruisers, what do you think?
Battlecruisers
Your cruisers are now battlecruisers. Your cruisers defend and attack on a 4. They also have a move of 3. -
I would like to see some kind of AA ability for the three capital ships. Only one would get a shot @ 1 per sz (fleet), similar to AA guns.
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@WILD:
I would like to see some kind of AA ability for the three capital ships. Only one would get a shot @ 1 per sz (fleet), similar to AA guns.
I had a tech named Naval Antiair before a so callad AA Cruiser with a AA ability, but it is simply not worth persuing. Remeber that it costs 30 IPCs to develop a tech on average! I would take one BB and a FTR for those IPCs any time. More over in World War II, pure naval firepower didn’t mean a thing unless one have the planes to back it up. Surface ships without air protection were simply vulnerable to air attacks. The Japanese gave a very convincing demonstration of this early in the war, sinking two armored British warships (Repulse and Prince of Wales). And unlike Pearl Harbor, The British ships were at sea and underway, capable of maneuver and prepared for air defense. And yet they were sunk … quickly.
I think about a variant of ASW (anti-submarine warfare) for planes as the fifth naval tech.
Anti-Submarine Warfare
Your aircraft may now attack enemy submarines and cancels the Surprise Strike of enemy submarines. -
Anti-Submarine Warfare NEW
Your aircraft may now attack enemy submarines and cancels the Surprise Strike of enemy submarines.i would add that cruisers are ASW units as well. Also the ASW units only cancel out the subs first strike at a 1:1 basis.
I am not in favor of ‘fast battleships’ , but only cruisers and carriers. Leave DD and BB as 2 movers.
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The battlecruiser is a ship as large as a battleship, with the big guns of a battleship, and the sea speed of the fleetest cruiser, but with considerably less armor than a battleship. They were to revolutionize cruiser design. After this new type of capital ship came into service all previous armored cruisers were instantly obsolete.
yes from this its understood that only have one hit, but the guns could be at 4…ok make it a 4-3 unit because the armor we still like a cruiser…not a 4-4 unit, but a 4-3 unit moving 3.
Also, allow it to use any remaining movement points it has left after combat to move the balance after combat…to simulate the idea that it gets away after it sinks…
example: the BC moves one space and sinks a cruiser, then moves 2 more spaces in NCM away to avoid getting attacked by the enemy …this make is a good surface raider.
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@Imperious:
Anti-Submarine Warfare NEW
Your aircraft may now attack enemy submarines and cancels the Surprise Strike of enemy submarines.i would add that cruisers are ASW units as well. Also the ASW units only cancel out the subs first strike at a 1:1 basis.
I am not in favor of ‘fast battleships’ , but only cruisers and carriers. Leave DD and BB as 2 movers.
Ok, I will think about the addion of cruisers for the ASW. It might be good. But your comment on BBs for Fast Capital Ships is worthless if you don´t give a good argument for your stand point. I did gave a strong reson to why BBs should be included i the text above, for historical resons! Moreover it is a more balanced tech if one can bring in BBs to soak up hits.
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@Imperious:
…ok make it a 4-3 unit because the armor we still like a cruiser…not a 4-4 unit, but a 4-3 unit moving 3.
Also, allow it to use any remaining movement points it has left after combat to move the balance after combat…to simulate the idea that it gets away after it sinks…
example: the BC moves one space and sinks a cruiser, then moves 2 more spaces in NCM away to avoid getting attacked by the enemy …this make is a good surface raider.
I don´t like the 4-3 idea because it still only takes a singel hit to destroy a cruiser and the tech will hardly be worth persuing at 4-3. Bottomline is that your idea is not balanced, do the math. However I like your idea of special movement in NCM. How about this variant:
Battlecruisers
Your cruisers are now battlecruisers. Your cruisers defend and attack on a 4. If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving cruisers in the attacking forces may move 1 territory during the noncombat move phase.However I still like the tech Fast Capital Ships more than Battlecruisers! :wink:
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I agree that the rules must be realistic, but they also must be balanced and not throw out the other pieces and reduce their value. The Battleship moving three represents that they also have long range as well as speed. They do not have long range, rather this is a trait of cruisers and possible carriers. Battleships suck up too much fuel to patrol the distance of 3 sea zones unless they carry tankers and that never happens when they are in battle because tankers move very slow and if the tanker is sunk the Battleship is helpless in the middle of the ocean. Also, warships need to move a high rate of speed when in battle and suck up fuel even worse.
Cruiser by definition of their name ‘cruise’ long distances and have a much lighter frame that allows them to move fast and carriers are mostly build on a cruiser hull template.
IN the game having 3 ships out or 5 moving 3 is not balanced and reduces the value of the other two ships.
Realistically submarines should not be able to move 2 sea zones from a friendly port, unless these are long range submarines and most nations didn’t have many of these. Most of them were called ‘coastal submarines’ and should even not be able to move away from adjacent sea zones from land. This would be realistic as well, but hardly a decent AA rule because it would totally invalidate the submarine. The point is you cannot JUST do things that are historical and realistic if they don’t make sence in the game. SO naturally you just take the glaring unrealistic items and make them more realistic, but not at the detriment of the game play.
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I don´t like the 4-3 idea because it still only takes a singel hit to destroy a cruiser and the tech will hardly be worth persuing at 4-3. Bottomline is that your idea is not balanced, do the math. However I like your idea of special movement in NCM. How about this variant:
Battlecruisers
Your cruisers are now battlecruisers. Your cruisers defend and attack on a 4. If your attacking forces destroy all defending units in a territory in one cycle of combat, any of your surviving cruisers in the attacking forces may move 1 territory during the noncombat move phase.How does the “math” apply here considering this is technology? Technology introduces a new advantage so how does the math favor a 4-4 unit and not a 4-3 unit?
The movement must also be considered as an advantage to bring up the value of the technology equal to the loss of defense from 4 to 3. Also why did you post that the armor of a BC is like a cruiser, but rate the defense like a battleship?
That is not realistic.
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@Imperious:
How does the “math” apply here considering this is technology? Technology introduces a new advantage so how does the math favor a 4-4 unit and not a 4-3 unit?
Math is game balance. I has always been the one of us talking about balance when you talk about history, this will be fun. The thing is that Tech is math as well, even if the dude that designed this game has not not realized it yet! On average one spend 30 IPCs to develop a tech and there is a rsik premium as well, since one can not choose the tech you want. So the reward one are looking for to put IPCs on R&D is actually higher than 30 IPCs, depending on how many of the techs that will be valuable for the player. This is the basics. If there are lousy techs the riskpremium gets higher. Lets say Russia only want four out of six techs since the other two are more or less wothless to him. The payback the Russian player would be looking for to develop tech would be 40 IPCs (30 IPCs plus 2/6 times 30 IPCs).
There are three factors that will count for techs and those are; attack, defens and special abilities like movement and hits etc. The easiest way to find out if a tech is balanced is to compare the cost of the new tech and see if will be costeffective in attack and defens capability. And then look at any special abilities that will be of any strategic value and try to put a price on that. This will be different from time to time dependant on the mix of your and your enemies force. But the bottom line is that a tech should be worth persuing and that is at least 30 IPCs of investing instead of purchasing normal units for the IPCs.
Talking about game breakers and tech, you self advocate a A-Bomb tech. One could argument that such a super tech would compensate for lousy techs on the breakthrough charts. Fair enough, but I think that the R&D is risky as it is and does not need to be more of a gambling, but rather more strategic. I think it would be better to have different charts for land, air and sea. This would reduce the riskpremium I talked about before. More over I think that any tech should not be a definitive game breaker. One should stay with the back bone of the game, and that is that it must always be cheaper to defend than to attack. No unit shall be better than an infantry in defens. Ok, must stop there.
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Your post does not answer the question.
If these cruisers you propose with the new technology as a 4-4 unit moving 3 VS:
A Cruiser with ASW capabilities , a 4-3 unit that moves 3 spaces and can allocate its remaining movement after combat gives this second choice enough glitz to make technology investment worthwhile.
If i had a choice i would easily take the second choice. It offers greater utility to the cruiser.
Also, each researcher invested keeps rolling so your not spending 30 IPC to get a technology. ON average spending just 5 IPC will generate a 50 % chance of getting a technology after 3 turns, so its hardly a valid point to make about “the math” making the second candidate a useless technology.
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@Imperious:
…The Battleship moving three represents that they also have long range as well as speed. They do not have long range, rather this is a trait of cruisers and possible carriers. Battleships suck up too much fuel to patrol the distance of 3 sea zones unless they carry tankers and that never happens when they are in battle because tankers move very slow and if the tanker is sunk the Battleship is helpless in the middle of the ocean. Also, warships need to move a high rate of speed when in battle and suck up fuel even worse.
Cruiser by definition of their name ‘cruise’ long distances and have a much lighter frame that allows them to move fast and carriers are mostly build on a cruiser hull template.
IN the game having 3 ships out or 5 moving 3 is not balanced and reduces the value of the other two ships.
Range and speed is not the same thing. I agree with you here and has acted accordingly…
By the way, when it comes to tech the hole idea is to make a unit more valuable and hence reduce the value of other units.
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@Imperious:
Your post does not answer the question.
If these cruisers you propose with the new technology as a 4-4 unit moving 3 VS:
A Cruiser with ASW capabilities , a 4-3 unit that moves 3 spaces and can allocate its remaining movement after combat gives this second choice enough glitz to make technology investment worthwhile.
If i had a choice i would easily take the second choice. It offers greater utility to the cruiser.
I would choose the same as you here, but the ASW capability is not the purpose for battlecruisers. I like the special NCM ability, as I told you before.
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@Imperious:
…Also, each researcher invested keeps rolling so your not spending 30 IPC to get a technology. On average spending just 5 IPCs will generate a 50 % chance of getting a technology after 3 turns, so its hardly a valid point to make about “the math” making the second candidate a useless technology.
About the math I was wrong, it is 15 IPCs on average. I was stuck in the old days, sorry. This means that I will need to change me techs, any suggestions?
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I would choose the same as you here, but the ASW capability is not the purpose for battlecruisers. I like the special NCM ability, as I told you before.
What the technology does is make the old cruiser and replace it with Battlecruisers. The ASW is part of a general upgrade in development of cruisers because Anti- Aircraft Cruisers did exist, Also pocket Battleships did exist, also Fast moving Battlecruisers did exist. I think that your fixated on just the name rather than looking at the advanced cruiser as a technological upgrade in various aspects that reflect how different nations employed them.
I would just rename the technology advanced cruisers or something else. The general idea is to encapsulate the various ways the cruiser received in developments by different nations at war. In some cases these are Pocket battleships, or Battlecruisers, Or fast battleships, or AA cruisers.
The three new ideas give the flavor of most of these kinds of developments.
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About the math I was wrong, it is 15 IPCs on average. I was stuck in the old days, sorry. This means that I will need to change me techs, any suggestions?
Im looking at AA50 rules which is the most standard game at this point. Under these rules you pay just 5 IPC and each turn you get a free roll for technology, when the tech is finally achieved the researchers go away…so conceivably you only need to spend 5 IPC to get this technology or any other.
I think your still on revised and not many still play that thing. With AA50 and AA42 coming out they will definatly make Revised look like Milton Bradley edition and hence i dont think you want to still make rules for old games, but for adaptation to the new ones.
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@Imperious:
…Im looking at AA50 rules which is the most standard game at this point. Under these rules you pay just 5 IPC and each turn you get a free roll for technology, when the tech is finally achieved the researchers go away…
According to AA50 rules the math says the following:
If one choose to role one die each turn the tech will on average cost 15 IPCs and take 3 turns to develop
If one choose to role two dice each turn the tech will on average cost 20 IPCs and take 2 turns to develop
If one choose to role three dice each turn the tech will on average cost 22.5 IPCs and take 1.5 turns to developI like the semantic of yours for cruisers. I will think about the advanced cruiser tech compared to fast capitals.
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