Hm - so it is possible for China to rake in 5 infantry per turn after all. Interesting.
Oh, and Wilson2, you didn’t give credit to Japan as being a possible controller of the UK. With long range heavy bombing paratroopers, anything’s possible.
Games W/O National Objectives
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I was thinking about this the other day also. If you are on an SBR and you take a couple of fighters with you to defend them you are leaving yourself to AA firing at ALL of your aircraft, then you will take another round of fire from the defending interceptors which have double the chances of hitting you (attacking, “escorting” planes at 1 and defending interceptors at 2).
After 2 rounds of fire at your planes/bombers, I think that if you have Heavy Bombers, you deserve to roll 2 dice instead of “rolling 2 and choosing the highest one”
That rule was used in the Revised tourney because the HB were too devestating. But in this game, there is only a 3% of getting HB anyway and with the fact that you have to go through 2 rounds of fire via the AA and intercepors, players who get HB deserve to roll 2 dice! Don’t you think??? :?
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Non HBs SBRs are not so devastating now (after all, there are some tech than counter them) and you can anyway spend money in tech even with max damage. But I think the main complaining is about HBs vs fleets. I still think is not so big issue (there are also some techs here and there that counter it and bombers cannot conquer land and bomb fleets at the same time)
I prefer HBs picking best of 2 dices and no escort rules. It lets some space for SBRs and it’s not enough strong to make tech complainers have a solid argument against them
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But I think the main complaining is about HBs vs fleets. I still think is not so big issue (there are also some techs here and there that counter it and bombers cannot conquer land and bomb fleets at the same time)
I prefer HBs picking best of 2 dices and no escort rules. It lets some space for SBRs and it’s not enough strong to make tech complainers have a solid argument against them
I forgot about that fleet thing… I kept thinking HB was only for SBRs :-o
Yeah if HB can roll 2 dice in battle- land or sea they will be very overwhelming…so the stated change “roll 2 dice and pick the higher one” is best- I stand corrected. :-)However it is important that if you have 2 or more bombers with HB (using the above rule), then you have to roll EACH bomber separately otherwise it messes up the probability.
Example if I have 3 bmrs with HB and lets say I roll all 6 dice at the same time and I get: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 One could pick the top three die rolls: 4, 5, 6 = 15 damage. Versus rolling each bomber separately- example bmr1 gets: 1, 2 bmr2 gets: 3, 4 bmr3 gets 5, 6. Now taking the highest of these rolls separately yields: 2+4+6= 12 damage!
:-)
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However it is important that if you have 2 or more bombers with HB (using the above rule), then you have to roll EACH bomber separately otherwise it messes up the probability.
True
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Non HBs SBRs are not so devastating now (after all, there are some tech than counter them) and you can anyway spend money in tech even with max damage. But I think the main complaining is about HBs vs fleets. I still think is not so big issue (there are also some techs here and there that counter it and bombers cannot conquer land and bomb fleets at the same time)
I prefer HBs picking best of 2 dices and no escort rules. It lets some space for SBRs and it’s not enough strong to make tech complainers have a solid argument against them
There needs to be a “non-luck” counter to bombers. Escorts happen to fit perfectly.
And bombing itself is the problem, not heavys.
When Germany has 35 IPC, but has to spend 16 just to be able to buy 6 infantry, thats a gamebreaker.
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There needs to be a “non-luck” counter to bombers. Escorts happen to fit perfectly.
And bombing itself is the problem, not heavys.
When Germany has 35 IPC, but has to spend 16 just to be able to buy 6 infantry, thats a gamebreaker.
You could say the same if Japan SBRs USSR (and maybe a bit of UK) until the Stone Age. Japan has more income than USA to buy bombers and USSR has less income than Germany to resist damage. Germans could make SBRs against UK at the same time …
Of course, USA could have a small trouble if Japan attacks mainland America while USA is too busy building bombers …
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Of course, USA could have a small trouble if Japan attacks mainland America while USA is too busy building bombers …
In 1941, with NO and 5 transports, this is a valid option.
In 1942, without NO, and 1 transport, its a pipe dream. USA will never fall.
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Of course, USA could have a small trouble if Japan attacks mainland America while USA is too busy building bombers …
In 1941, with NO and 5 transports, this is a valid option.
In 1942, without NO, and 1 transport, its a pipe dream. USA will never fall.
I forgot we where talking about no NOs
It’s more difficult, sure, but you can still buy 4 trannies and 1 inf J1 1942 scenario. That buy works even if you finally cancel the invasion on mainland America
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Of course, USA could have a small trouble if Japan attacks mainland America while USA is too busy building bombers …
In 1941, with NO and 5 transports, this is a valid option.
In 1942, without NO, and 1 transport, its a pipe dream. USA will never fall.
I forgot we where talking about no NOs
It’s more difficult, sure, but you can still buy 4 trannies and 1 inf J1 1942 scenario. That buy works even if you finally cancel the invasion on mainland America
I agree you can buy 4 transports. But USA already has 3 bombers. They can easily buy 2 more and still have enough for land units. Japan does not have enough income without NO to really conquer the USA. They just have a threat to do so.
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I agree you can buy 4 transports. But USA already has 3 bombers. They can easily buy 2 more and still have enough for land units. Japan does not have enough income without NO to really conquer the USA. They just have a threat to do so.
Agh … I also forgot the starting USA bombers. Well, I guess Japan can counter with her own bombers then and smash USSR (they work against fleet anyway)
A SBR party …
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I agree you can buy 4 transports. But USA already has 3 bombers. They can easily buy 2 more and still have enough for land units. Japan does not have enough income without NO to really conquer the USA. They just have a threat to do so.
Agh … I also forgot the starting USA bombers. Well, I guess Japan can counter with her own bombers then and smash USSR (they work against fleet anyway)
A SBR party …
Its really a different animal, playing from 41-42 and with/without NO.
I guess you could bomb USSR with them, but you will never be able to “out-bomb” the allies. Just too much income disparity (and the relative safety of the USA) to overcome.
Anyway, its a moot point, since escorts/interceptors pretty much solve the bombing problem in a no-tech/no-obj game.
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Anyway, its a moot point, since escorts/interceptors pretty much solve the bombing problem in a no-tech/no-obj game.
Yes, escorts make SBR unusable :|
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Anyway, its a moot point, since escorts/interceptors pretty much solve the bombing problem in a no-tech/no-obj game.
Yes, escorts make SBR unusable :|
No, not really.
Lets take 1942. USA has 3 bombers (and three expected fighters) for its first turn. USA can buy 2 fighters (20) and a bomber (12).
Germany cant have a fleet, protect Germany with fighters, protect the Italy fleet, and protect Rome from bombing.
Whatever the Axis cant protect, you attack.
Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).
Sooner or later your fighter screen will be too much for Germany to prevent.
What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.
Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.
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I’ll go right into the main issue here, balance…. :evil:
Allies are favored in both 41 and 42, but it’s not impossible for axis to win w/o a bid, I tried an allied CA strat, and an allied BB strat, did not work, but I think the most important reasons that I lost a couple of games with this setting is that I did not play the conservative strats, same overall strats as in Revised.
I think it’s probable that the allied bias is at the same level, or maybe a little bit less than in Revised.
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Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).
What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.
Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.
I agree with the last two sentences. You make a valid point with air superiority
However, I have my doubts about the protection of USSR ICs because Japan can easily do the same that USA (and has more income). However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.
With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work
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… However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.
With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work
That’s what we play in our FTF group:
Escort rule but the AAA shots are not taken against escorting ftrs. Works pretty well. With the ftr subjected to AAA fire, it was TOO costly to do any SBRs, and that eliminated them totally from the game. Too much of a drastic change, in our gaming groups opinion.
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Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).
What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.
Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.
I agree with the last two sentences. You make a valid point with air superiority
However, I have my doubts about the protection of USSR ICs because Japan can easily do the same that USA (and has more income). However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.
With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work
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Remember, we are without obj, so there is no “penalty” for Russia having allied fighters stationed in Moscow/Caucus.
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To get “maximum” protection, germany would have to leave its 5 fighters in Germany. Not on a fleet. Not stationed in Lenningrad for forward attacks. The more limited movement of German fighters is also a hinderance.
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Given that bombers cost LESS and AA guns MORE than in revised, I think its certainly fair that AA guns shoot at escorts. They no longer get to shoot at any planes that just fly over. There has to be some better benefit for increasing their cost.
Otherwise, you would have to go back to previous rules. Make Bombers 15 again, AA 5, give them back their abilities, and limit bombing damage as in Revised.
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the problem is the sequence of the escort rule:
The AAA fire happens and THEN the defender gets to decide to go up or not.
Too big of an advantage for the defender.
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the problem is the sequence of the escort rule:
The AAA fire happens and THEN the defender gets to decide to go up or not.
Too big of an advantage for the defender.
That is not correct:
Fighter Escorts and Interceptors: Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.
After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units….
UK decides to bring 4 fighters and 3 bombers to attack Germany. Germany has 3 fighters stationed in Germany.
Germany must decide before any dice are rolled how many fighters they will defend with.
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I stand corrected. Apologies for misleading anyone with my misinformation.
Thanks for the clarification as well as posting the correct rule
FYI this is listed at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20081212Fighter Escorts and Interceptors
Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.
After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 (2 if the attacker has the Jet Power research breakthrough) and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal.
Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attacker’s Noncombat Move phase begins. If no such landing space is available, the fighters are lost.
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