German force in BAL blocks UK transports?

[Thorak]

Hi there, in a game I saw a move where uk holds nwy and len while german holds germany, weu and eeu with force, the UK fleet is placed in BAL. Now the german player buys a sub in BAL. According to the rules it seems like if the UK transports stay in BAL they are involved in combat and can not move in non-combat. If they move during combat step and load units from gbr they have to attack a territory which in this case leads to certain death. Is this valid? Has the German player succefully blocked the incoming Uk units by purchasing a sub in BAL? The UK player planned to unload forces into either nwy or len but this is no longer possible…

BR
// Daniel

[gnasape]

@Thorak:

Hi there, in a game I saw a move where uk holds nwy and len while german holds germany, weu and eeu with force, the UK fleet is placed in BAL. Now the german player buys a sub in BAL. According to the rules it seems like if the UK transports stay in BAL they are involved in combat and can not move in non-combat. If they move during combat step and load units from gbr they have to attack a territory which in this case leads to certain death. Is this valid? Has the German player succefully blocked the incoming Uk units by purchasing a sub in BAL? The UK player planned to unload forces into either nwy or len but this is no longer possible…

BR
// Daniel

Hey Daniel,

No, the sub would not prevent the transports from loading & unloading during NCM, the transport can move out of the seazone with the sub.  It can load units and come back to the seazone with the sub to do an ampib assault assuming you have other naval units that can clear the sub or be used to load and unload units during NCM.

Please see the link to the FAQ on the WotC website.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/faqs/axisrevised#combat

Happy gaming.

[SpartanJD01]

gnasape,

I think you missed the point of the question.  UK doesnt want to assault WE, Germ, or EE and already has Norway & Karelia.  Unloading to Norway and Karelia would be NC, so the movement out of SZ5 would not result in combat, and should not happen until NCM, after the transports participated in battle, meaning they cannot move again.  That question is not answered by the FAQ you posted.

[gnasape]

@SpartanJD01:

gnasape,

I think you missed the point of the question.  UK doesnt want to assault WE, Germ, or EE and already has Norway & Karelia.  Unloading to Norway and Karelia would be NC, so the movement out of SZ5 would not result in combat, and should not happen until NCM, after the transports participated in battle, meaning they cannot move again.  That question is not answered by the FAQ you posted.

Please read the FAQ and the rulebook referenced below, it answers the question, under combat regarding transport, the transport can move out of the seazone with the sub during COMBAT MOVE to avoid combat and since it has not engaged in combat it may be used during NCM to load & unload units.

You are moving the transport during COMBAT MOVE to avoid combat, and since the transport has not been in COMBAT, it maybe used during NCM to load/unload units.

Please see rulebook, page 3: Phase 3: Combat Move, exception

Exception: During this phase, you may move any of your units out of spaces containing enemy units that were there at the start of your turn. (This normally occurs only in sea zones.) Doing so allows you to end the units’ combat move in a space that doesn’t contain enemy units. Units that remain in spaces containing enemy units will initiate combat in the
next phase.

[Thorak]

Hello again, I was hoping for an answer like that, however, this part of the rules in the non combat movement section bothers me a bit:

“Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded,
moved or offloaded during the combat move or combat phase.”

To me this seems like the transport can not load/offload units in the non combat phase since it moved in the combat phase?

BR
// Daniel

[AThousandYoung]

So unload during Combat Phase.  All this means is you don’t get to decide how and where to load and unload until after you see the results of battle.  You need to commit beforehand.

[SpartanJD01]

This is the FAQ cited:

Can a transport move out of a potential combat situation in one sea zone into a friendly sea zone, load a unit, move to a third (also friendly) sea zone, and offload the land unit into hostile territory for an amphibious assault?
This move is legal. All of the transport’s activity takes place in the combat move. At the moment it moves out of the first sea zone, it’s not yet in combat (this is in fact what allows it to move at all), so it can load in another sea zone, then come back and assault.

[Krieghund]

Thorak and SpartanJD01 are correct.  The transports must either fight or move out in the combat movement phase.  If they move, the only way they can pick up land units is either for an immediate amphibious assault (during combat movement) or to allow them to load and remain on the transports until the following turn (during noncombat movement).

Land and sea units may not move in the combat movement phase or fight and then move again in the noncombat movement phase.  After a combat movement or a battle, a transport may either load or unload, but it may not do both.

[gnasape]

I think we need to take the rules as a total instead of grabbing a piece here and there.

Page 13, Transports

A transport may end its combat move carrying land units, but these are considered cargo until they offload. Cargo cannot take part in combat and is destroyed if the transport is destroyed. A transport may not load or offload in a territory adjacent to a hostile sea zone, unless the enemy units consist only of submerged submarines (see the rules for submerging submarines in Phase 4: Conduct Combat).

Page 21, Phase 5 Noncombat Move
Where Units can Move

Sea Units: Sea units can move through any friendly sea zones. They cannot move through hostile sea zones, except when the enemy forces consist of only submerged submarines. Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they moved during the combat move phase. Transports that have been in combat may either load
or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

This combined with what was presented before gives the scenario that:

This is a simple example:

a) The transport can move out of the seazone that the sub,
b) Load units on the transport during combat phase
c) Move into the seazone with the sub (hopefully there are other naval units that can attack the sub to either sink or make the sub submerge.  Either way it would make the seazone safe. So the units are treated as cargo, if transport survives the cargo survives, if not that’s the chance you would be taking.
c) During NCM, offload, since it can only load or offload (not both) during this phase since it was involved in combat.

That’s my thoughts, I can’t find anywhere in the rulebook that prevents loading transports during combat phase.

This is turning out to be an interesting excercise for my brain.  Thank you.

Darn Krieghund beat me too it!  Krieghund, could you take a look to see if my reasoning is sound and within the rules?

[Krieghund]

@gnasape:

c) During NCM, offload, since it can only load or offload (not both) during this phase since it was involved in combat.

This is where your logic falls down.  Since land and sea units may not move in both combat and noncombat movement, the land units may not unload until the following turn.  They loaded in combat movement, so they may not unload in noncombat movement.

[gnasape]

@Krieghund:

@gnasape:

c) During NCM, offload, since it can only load or offload (not both) during this phase since it was involved in combat.

This is where your logic falls down.  Since land and sea units may not move in both combat and noncombat movement, the land units may not unload until the following turn.  They loaded in combat movement, so they may not unload in noncombat movement.

Thank you!  That’s why you are the answer guy!  You should have a your own section that says, Ask Krieghund or Talk to Krieghund so we can get fast answers.  This was covered more in AA50 as to what can be loaded and unloaded.

[Krieghund]

Fast answers?  Same day service isn’t fast enough?  I can’t stay on-line 24/7.  I do have a life, ya know!  :wink: