• The Russians helped take out Germany but let’s not forget the 8th air force which bombed Germany into submission! Without the strategic bombing from the US, Germany’s factory’s would still be producing full force and there wouldn’t have been a 2nd front. Without these, I don’t think the Russians would have been able to push into Germany.

    More like the US “helped” Russia take out Germany. 20 million Russians dead to what, 400,000 Americans? I don’t recall that Germany ever “submitted” to the US bombing attacks. I’ve read that German production actually peaked in 1944, but it didn’t really matter as they were horribly outnumbered at that point. By the time the British/American bombing campaign was in high gear, sometime in 43, the war was already lost in the east. Stalingrad and Kursk lost the war, plus by 1943 Russia was outproducing Germany. I’m not saying the Allied effort had no effect, but it certainly wasn’t the deciding factor in the war. I’m not trying to be a dick, but you Americans give yourselves way too much credit IMO.


  • @Rammstein:

    The Russians helped take out Germany but let’s not forget the 8th air force which bombed Germany into submission! Without the strategic bombing from the US, Germany’s factory’s would still be producing full force and there wouldn’t have been a 2nd front. Without these, I don’t think the Russians would have been able to push into Germany.

    More like the US “helped” Russia take out Germany. 20 million Russians dead to what, 400,000 Americans? I don’t recall that Germany ever “submitted” to the US bombing attacks. I’ve read that German production actually peaked in 1944, but it didn’t really matter as they were horribly outnumbered at that point. By the time the British/American bombing campaign was in high gear, sometime in 43, the war was already lost in the east. Stalingrad and Kursk lost the war, plus by 1943 Russia was outproducing Germany. I’m not saying the Allied effort had no effect, but it certainly wasn’t the deciding factor in the war. I’m not trying to be a dick, but you Americans give yourselves way too much credit IMO.

    perhaps that conversation should be taken to the WWII forum, while this thread should keep a focus on killing the UK first strats.


  • @Rammstein:

    The Russians helped take out Germany but let’s not forget the 8th air force which bombed Germany into submission! Without the strategic bombing from the US, Germany’s factory’s would still be producing full force and there wouldn’t have been a 2nd front. Without these, I don’t think the Russians would have been able to push into Germany.

    More like the US “helped” Russia take out Germany. 20 million Russians dead to what, 400,000 Americans? I don’t recall that Germany ever “submitted” to the US bombing attacks. I’ve read that German production actually peaked in 1944, but it didn’t really matter as they were horribly outnumbered at that point. By the time the British/American bombing campaign was in high gear, sometime in 43, the war was already lost in the east. Stalingrad and Kursk lost the war, plus by 1943 Russia was outproducing Germany. I’m not saying the Allied effort had no effect, but it certainly wasn’t the deciding factor in the war. I’m not trying to be a dick, but you Americans give yourselves way too much credit IMO.

    You are correct that the war was “over” in 1943 (in the sense that Germany had no hope of actually winning any longer). Its only goal was to survive long enough to force a peace. And the allied bombing campaign did not have real effects until after 1943.

    However, the real aid of the US was in the lend lease the USSR got. Without the significant supplies sent by the USA, the war would not have been “won” in 1943. Those tanks, trucks, wheat, fuel, and other supplies were desperately neeeded by Stalin. Who knows what might have happened without them.

    See this book

    Russia’s Life-Saver: Lend-Lease Aid to the U.S.S.R. in World War II
    http://www.amazon.com/Russias-Life-Saver-Lend-Lease-U-S-S-R-World/dp/0739107364

    http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

    The USSR received hundreds of thousands of military vehicles and motorbikes. Lack of fuel was ameliorated with deliveries of 2.5 million tons of petroleum products. The profusion of Roosevelt’s “garden hose” provided Stalin with 595 ships, including 28 frigates, 105 submarines, 77 trawlers, 22 torpedo boats, 140 anti-submarine vessels and others. The Soviet air force received 4,952 Aerocobra and 2,410 Kingcobra fighter jets. Soviet pilot Alexander Pokryshkin fought with Hitler’s Luftwaffe aces in Aerocobra planes, which made him a Hero of the Soviet Union hero three times over.

    The lend-lease agreement supplied the USSR with 2,7 thousand A-20 and 861 B-25 bomber planes. Soviet tank divisions received 7,056 tanks, 8,218 anti-aircraft emplacements, 131,600 machine guns and other arms.

    Soviet propaganda tried to diminish the importance of the American help. Back in those years, it was said that the Soviet Union had produced 30,000 tanks and 40,000 planes since the middle of 1943. Well, as a matter of fact, this was true. However, one has to take into consideration the fact that lend and lease deliveries were made to the USSR during the most difficult period of the war - during the second half of 1942. In addition, the USSR would not have been capable of producing its arms without the lend-lease agreement: The USA shipped 2.3 million tons of steel to the USSR during the WWII years. That volume of steel was enough for the production of 70,000 T-34 tanks. Aluminum was received in the volume of 229,000 tons, which helped the Soviet aviation and tank industries to run for two years. One has to mention food deliveries as well: 3.8 million tons of tinned pork, sausages, butter, chocolate, egg powder and so on. The lend-lease agreement provided orderlies with 423,000 telephones and tens of thousands of wireless stations. Deliveries also included oil distillation equipment, field bakeries, tents, parachutes, and so on and so forth. The Soviet Union also received 15 million pairs of army boots.

    The help was delivered to the USSR via Iran and major Soviet sea ports. About 3,000 transport vessels arrived at the ports of Murmansk, Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok, and delivered 1.3 million tons of cargo. It would be incorrect to diminish the significance of such all-embracing help from the New World as a serious factor that assisted in the victorious ending of the war.


  • AND since you mentioned Kursk (operation Citaldel), Russia wouldn’t have known about it unless England broke the code and delivered the plans of the attack to Stalin.  England wouldn’t be alive to decode the crypto if the US didn’t develop sonar and give it to the British……


  • C’mon… you guys compare material help to 20 millions lives…

    I’m from Canada and yet still well aware that there is huge difference between money and human lives. I’d rather pay money to equip someone to fight for me than take the bullet myself if I had the option…

    I honor allied countries people that fought but you got to really take a harder look at that war if you can’t see the real fighting and bulk of the war occured between Russia and Germany.

    For the UK strat, it’s very doable but you need a baltic carrier and France IC on G1. This leaves you with a weak Eastern front so it’s a race before Russia becomes too dangerous. If Japan and Italy are correctly played however, you can stall russians long enough to gain control of Atlantic. Anyways, I’ll post details later.


  • I truly believe that KUKF is only half correct.
    I have played many games of A&A and the Xeno World at World series as well, and the true constant is that UK is too difficult to take early, because as soon as you make your intensions clear, next UK turn all they need to do is buy all men and you will not have enough to take it. Taking it on G1 is too tight. And after that UK can anticipate all your moves.
    The reason I say it is half correct is that in my view you have to crush UK as much as possible as early as possible, except Britain, Canada and Australia. Take out as many of their naval pieces as you can and then the idea is for the Axis to take all of UK’s money and NO’s away so Germany is dominating in the money. An IC on France first turn is a great idea so G2 you buy at least 1 transport iand 1 sub in the Med to add to Italy’s fleet and help Italy take Africa, Middle East and then assist Japan to take away India if they are having trouble. Also it is import to note that Russia can then be attacked from the middle east with Italy or Germany. If the Axis can take control of the Med, and manage to capture Egypt early and hold it, so as to go deeper into Africa, along with taking Trans-Jordan and Gilbraltor, Italy now gets all of its NO’s and makes around 25 IPC’s per turn. Germany and Italy combine thier naval forces south of France and they each can then add one or two naval piece to their fleet each round. Once the fleet is large enough it can be moved on the same turn into the Atlantic beside France so as to reach Britain and/or America. If the Axis control the Atlantic and can add pieces every round to stay ahead of the Allies, they will win.
    Germany should keep UK at bay and concentrate on acheiving its NO’s and then trying to get the upper hand on Russia, while planning its buys accordingly.
    Japan needs to take out UK in India and south seas, push deep into China, and mount a significant force to go into Soviet far east and move forward towards Russia.
    The Axis should try to avoid losing terittories they capture, as this slowing down plays into the Allis hand and prolongs the Axis advance and can stop it all together. 8-)


  • I really don’t believe that a KBF strategy is all to effective, too many variables, and it’s too easy for the UK to anticipate your moves.
    Instead I believe in a “Beat the UK into a bloody pulp and leave it do die on it’s stupid island :evil: :evil: :evil:” strategy (no offense to my neighbors across the pond :-D).  Which is basically taking everything except Britain itself, blockade it, and wait for the Allies to concede.


  • @Corbeau:

    For the UK strat, it’s very doable but you need a baltic carrier and France IC on G1. This leaves you with a weak Eastern front so it’s a race before Russia becomes too dangerous. If Japan and Italy are correctly played however, you can stall russians long enough to gain control of Atlantic. Anyways, I’ll post details later.

    This.  If you’re serious about building atlantic fleet as germany, IC in france is a must G1.  Building a baltic carrier helps but you don’t really have the planes yet to reinforce it, plus its usually STUCK in the baltic SZ for the rest of the game.  It distracts britain and protects Germany, but the Allies can ignore it if they want to and go after Africa.  Building some inf with the remainder IPCs G1 is what I usually do.  You can generally build a naval stack in the med G2 and get reinforcements from italy, and hopefully japan by turn 3, if axis can take out egypt and run through the suez in time.  If Axis can grab most of africa and hold onto it for a few turns, the fleet was generally worth it.  Keep the Allies out of the med, and Russia is a cakewalk!


  • To build any German naval units is usually not helpful, and kill UK first will only happen as an AAR sealion project, means it’s only doable against players who have not played the game before  and is learning…

    If Germany is doing fine during the first rnds and builds IC in France, and if the Italian navy is not killed before rnd3-4, I can see Germany dropping naval units in the south if the fleet can survive, but a heavy German naval strat is doomed to fail against decent allied players, b/c Russia will be too strong.


  • @Subotai:

    To build any German naval units is usually not helpful, and kill UK first will only happen as an AAR sealion project, means it’s only doable against players who have not played the game before  and is learning…

    If Germany is doing fine during the first rnds and builds IC in France, and if the Italian navy is not killed before rnd3-4, I can see Germany dropping naval units in the south if the fleet can survive, but a heavy German naval strat is doomed to fail against decent allied players, b/c Russia will be too strong.

    That is why I think if you want to advocate something crazy like a Kill UK first, Italy is the country you really have to look at.  Germany has to attempt to sink all the UK navy and probably do a T1 naval build big enough to distract the UK from Italy (subs or a carrier most likley) after that is has to make sure to build 1 air unit a turn to send to the West (hopefully bombers to keep SBRing UK/ keeping US transports at bay), while Japan has to go HEAVY towards the WUSA and if it can spare it India and Australia, to try and keep US out of Africa and hopefully hit some UK IPC’s, also you may have to get that Japanese Carrier to the Med as fast as possible.  Italy then would have to pray it can win enough to secure Africa and build a fleet in time to seriously threaten the UK, probably take Brazil in the process too.  You have to do this and hope somehow someway Germany can still stave off Russia and Japan can make some mainland in roads.  I don’t think it’s a good strat, but it is the best I can think of.

    And if you think that is too much of a long shot, the only other thing I can think of is to once again have the Japs threaten the US as much as they can while still hopefully having enough to gain ground in asia.  But instead try to hit with Germany. You still shouldn’t start off with Navel builds.  The Germans have to build air at 1st I think to try and clear the Brits.  Then if you can pull off a double hit with Italy/Germany on the UK.  I think this is a bit more far fetched to an already far fetched strat, but still if you want to try something crazy…

    Honestly kill UK first is just way too difficult.  A kill America 1st strat would even be easier I think.  Now if you want to do a cripple UK strat and make them irrelevant, that is much much more feasible.

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