@sjelso
If you have any more questions on the Admiral version of SCW, just ask. I designed it and would eventually like to adjust it to version 3.1 if there are more things not clear.
Invading the soviet union with lighting war continued
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@trig Good point! Sorry, I’m playing all this through in my head, and I keep thinking about how if it were me France/Belgium/Netherlands would have already been attacked before Russia. So I was thinking of it in terms of that. But yeah, in @David-06 scenario that is not the case. So my mistake on that portion of it!
When I play the Axis I try and time the Japanese invasion of the DEI to coincide with the German invasion of Western Europe.
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@chris_henry I was going to use Lightning War for the USSR so I’ll take the factories in 1 turn, basically before Russia can do anything about it. If you saw my plans, I included taking ALL the major factories, which means that for some time, the soviet Production will be limited. I had 2 plans for USSR, the “2” one is if there is basically nothing in Ukraine. Also, there is a 25% chance once Germany invades Poland (jan 1939) that Britain won’t be able to join the war. There is also a 19% France won’t be able to join (jan 1939). For france, with the help of Italy, I would invade Southern France and as Italy I would gather my forces and I would do suicide attacks on the Capital, Paris, and Germany would also do so. But that does mean that Italy could actually defeat france. The DEI, I realized would have to go later.
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@david-06 I’ll definitely be curious on how it pans out! I know there was a thread a while back for the V2 game about this very possibility for Moscow to fall during the Lightning War attack, and it was largely debunked as not very likely to succeed. But all games are different, I think it will depend largely on how smartly your Comintern player defends against it, and how well the Allied player exploits it!
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@chris_henry Hopefully I’ll be able to try it out. Though I think this will make the game way more interesting.
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@david-06 If it does work, a boring game for the Comintern will be afoot haha.
I know this is based on a base-game scenario, but this sounds like a fun chance to use the Partisans Expansion too! Would force the Axis to really have to defend their new territories from who knows how many Soviet partisans in the area haha.
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@chris_henry Partisans do add a lot of action, it also gives the allies something to do in the early game.
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@david-06 Definitely! That’s one I really like to play with in my games. I don’t want to derail your thread, but that one is certainly one we like to use! Makes the CCP a lot more fun as well, especially when used with the Chinese Civil War expansion too!
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@chris_henry That would make things harder, though I would rather fight some partisans than the might of the soviets and Americans combined.
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@david-06 True there!
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@chris_henry Two- front wars don’t work that well. I remember one game in which I played as Germany in which I had to fight on 5 fronts at one time, most of which were defensive. Didn’t end well for the Germans
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@david-06 While I certainly agree on that, I also just don’t think letting one alliance build up unchecked won’t end well either!
My typical play/hope is to use my lightning war round effectively in the west to take at least all of France, though hopefully Norway, Denmark, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well.
In doing this, you wrap up mainland resistance right away, and the UK is almost assuredly in no position to make amphibious assaults against you immediately after, allowing you some time to build defenses, while focusing more manpower in the east.
Depending on how the game has gone to this point (i.e. where my troops have been placed, enemy troops are placed, peacetime income increase rolls, etc.) I will also either simultaneously attack the USSR, utilizing the Lighting War and Soviet Surprise Attack abilities, and hopefully getting to the two front line cities/factories quickly.
To me, doing this now neutralizes any big French buildup of units in France. The longer it takes to take them out, the harder and more costly it’ll be, and the more IPP’s you’ll have to sacrifice taking them out will hurt! But I think you have the larger IPP advantage at this point in having gained French IPP (and money in the bank), and now France was taken out efficiently, while also making any UK attempts much more costly with amphibious assaults instead of free movements to the mainland.
From there, it’s trying a defensive game in the west, while pushing the resources you need in the east!
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@chris_henry This is where Italy will go into play. If Southern France is taken, then French troops into North Africa is delayed, and since from Northern Italy you can invade the Balkans, The French won’t really expect it. This, paired with the suicidal attacks into Paris, which will weaken France leading to less troops on the front. I think that the cash from the Soviet union will pay off more later on. Also, Germany doesn’t even have to take France and still will fulfill all of its VPs. So, in reality, they could play a defensive war and since the only two entrances will by that time be well defended, and infantry are really cheap, they could wait out the war.
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@chris_henry Also, simply put, the Axis at one point will be able to out produce the Allies and simply wait out the war.
Axis non-bonus: 130 IPPs
Allies non-bonus: 128 IPPs -
@david-06 I guess when does this Italian assault happen on France? I don’t see any realm where Italy is successful against France. France out-produces Italy really soon.
Anything against France is happening after the assaults on the USSR have begun, right? I’d just be shocked to see Italy have any success!
I don’t think Germany could stay neutral either. Why wouldn’t the Allies attack them? I know I wouldn’t just sit still as the Allies in this scenario while the Axis attempted to steamroll the USSR.
I guess I’d have to see your money breakdown for what gets what to get the numbers you got. But I think when Allied wartime bonuses come into play I think it would get hard for the Axis!
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@chris_henry Defending is better than attacking. The Allies wouldn’t really attack Germany, at least not successfully, because of the defense the Germans will be putting up (which shall compose of infantry militia, and artillery mostly). The Allies won’t have much of a choice when it comes to attacking spots, if they don’t force through the Danish straits, which will take a toll on their navy, and trap it in the Baltic. Now thinking about it, Italy could stay neutral, and lend lease to the Germans and make capital ships for that one victory condition, and that one away from the British. Those numbers are if Japan takes their half of russia and China with the money islands, and Germany takes their half of Russia with the Baltic states and Yugoslavia and thelassy with turkey and I raq alliened
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@david-06 I guess I’m having a really hard time envisioning how the Axis are going to possibly be able to have the units available to do all this?
I get that defending is better. But think of this from an Allied perspective. If what you plan actually happens, and the USSR is getting steamrolled, in what world would the Allies just sit back and do nothing? They’d just lose and concede the game if they just sat there and did nothing! They’d be forced to attack, even if the odds were against them. Otherwise you might as well just pick up the board and start the game over, right?
I guess I just don’t see how France is defeated here either. There’s no way in my mind Italy can defeat them. Even if all of Italy’s starting game units were shipped to Northern Italy, France’s income levels will quickly outpace them, especially if Italy just stays neutral as you mention maybe doing! Hell, just with Germany’s invasion of Poland alone France could reach wartime income, not to mention the bonuses for the USSR being attacked, and Slovakia, Austria, Bohemia, and Chinese territories being invaded. It just won’t take long from France to outproduce Italy. Then you sprinkle in UK reinforcements there too!
We might just have fundamental differences on what we think the enemy would do here. I just don’t see a realm where in this scenario the Axis have anything near the defensive forces needed to just keep the Allies contained in France, while getting the kind of push into Russia that you’re envisioning and the forces that would also require!
I’ll really be curious to hear how this turns out for you!
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@chris_henry Italy, with their little income, will spend it on capital ships (to the UK try to counter). Germany, in itself won’t have to defend in may areas, since its taking really few western territories=limited western response. The defensive war basically starts once both powers declare war on you, which there is a ~42% chance that at least one of them won’t be able to declare war on you (France most likely). you can drop a fort there later and build infantry and militia, which then if France attacks and fails, they might as well lose alasce-lorraine, then Paris, and this way, Germans will won’t have to concentrate on two fronts, but only defending one front.
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@david-06 How do you figure neither one would be able to declare war? If you’re invasion of the USSR starts in 1939, there’s a strong chance both the UK and France are at wartime income by 1940. Assuming other peacetime income increases have kicked in (annexation of Bohemia, Austria, Slovakia each give +1; invasion of Poland will have both a +2D12 roll; invasion of USSR gives +5 to France and a +D12 to the UK). Unless those D12 rolls hit on snake eyes, France declares war right as the USSR is attacked in 1940, right? A bit more chance for the UK to miss, but they too have a very strong chance, especially if Japan has triggered more increases by invading China at this point.
Like I said, I just can’t picture the Axis man power being available to ignore the west like that, while maintaining a strong enough offense force against the USSR as well! But I’d be curious to see how it plays out for you!
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@chris_henry By 1940 it is basically a fact that they’ll be at war (Britain + France with Germany). The USSR is knocked out early, and major hostilities would end in 4-5 turns and the soviet union would probably end up hiding in the Caucasus mountains for a lot of the game (if they attack they will probably die and the Allies will have to face a larger enemy) and what ever factories that are made in that time could be bombed and basically they will be at a standstill. In Bavaria, They can build 5 infantry costing about 15IPPs. Combine that with the fort and now you have 5 6s, which means that the allies, to match in power will have to spend 30 IPPs (medium armor).
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@david-06 Okay, so I see a bit more now. You’re plan is to have the USSR defeated in like 2 turns then? Sorry, I saw your cool map graphics, but maybe didn’t really understand the context.
I just don’t see how the Axis take out the USSR in two turns, and then have the strength to somehow counter the Allies in the West who will be waiting to pounce the moment they can. I just can’t imagine a Comintern player or Allied player(s) making enough terrible decisions to really kill themselves like this!
I think you’d have to leave more men in the USSR than you’re thinking too. Depending on how deep you push, the USSR might still have about 15 IPP a turn (maybe less depending on Japan), and the Allies and Comintern would almost assuredly work together to get a Lend-Lease path, even if that means working together to take out Iran and get a port and rail line connecting to the USSR. With the Allies untouched to this point, I think you see 3-4 lend-leased units to the USSR in this way every single turn!
But let’s turn the defense is better thing against the Axis. The Allies can also get a lot of their Victory Objectives in this Scenario. Add in the Victory Cities stay in their favor, it might be a close game. What’s to stop the Allies from building up and staying on the defensive, and now forcing the Germans to attack them, and have the worse go of it fighting defending units?
Here’s a thought I keep having: this game would be considered broken if the USSR could so easily be taken out in two turns, and then the Allies would be helpless to do anything themselves, wouldn’t it? This implies it’s really easy for the Axis to win the whole game I’d have to think!
Well, I think we might fundamentally disagree on what’s realistic then haha. I think we’re just talking over each other on what we both think is realistically possible to happen!
I think it’s really ambitious, and like I said, I’d love to hear how it works for you!
I think this conversation is part of what makes this game so fun though. There’s a ton of options out there to be considered, and all individual players will try and do things differently!
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