• @cts17:

    For all those who want to sit back and wait, you’d lose anyways… each year Germany fell further behind in the war effort. Russia herself was outproducing Germany, and she also had supplies coming from her allies. Waiting defensively also had the inevitable outcome of defeat.

    What was your choice in attack plans?


  • Clear out the pockets and improve the supply lines. I think that taking the Black Sea, breaking the siege at Leningrad and actually relinquishing it, and getting the logistics under control would have made a world of a difference.

    My personal choice would have been to sue for peace with the Russians.


  • Do you think they would listen after being betrayed like that? honestly?


  • Stalin WAS buddy buddy with Hitler, and Hitler’s persuasive voice had an almost magical aura to it.

    I personally think that a big bonus to Stalin in land and conquests elsewhere would have been enough to dissuade him of war.


  • Yes but this is assuming he wants no retribution whatsoever after being attacked.


  • After 1941 the Russian-German war in the East was a death match.


  • No doubt one side gonna be destroyed, but nothing Germany could never win as long as the US was involved.


  • Looking at some old material and thought this was a great topic and could use a revisit.


  • Nice idea Worsham.
    I think pulling back 100 miles to a defensible river and waiting for better weather would be the astute choice. We know from experience we can break the Russians and push deep again.  The short retreat and shortening of lines to better supply the front would be a reward for the men’s hard work in the first six months, all in readiness for the next push.
    Would have to be Moscow, even though that is what Stalin is expecting. It will be a hard slog, but we cannot be sidetracked again (even though Kiev and the 600000 prisoners were a great haul).
    Moscow is the key.


  • I went with option two (I think). I think the war on the eastern front wasn’t completely lost by the Germans until the winter of 42/43. Had a sensible German commander had complete control over the forces in Russia then things would have been very different. I believe had the Germans adopted a mobile defense to work in tandem with their Blitzkrieg offensive the Russians would have had a much harder time reclaiming lost ground and causing the massive losses the German army suffered from Hitlers “defend every inch!” strategic mentality.

    Keeping stupid things like the Stalingrad campaign and the horrifically ill conceived Operation Citadel from happening the German army could have conserved a lot of its fighting strength and could have ultimately “won” in the east. I don’t think they would have conquered Russia and gotten their labensraum but they could have bled the Russian white and at least gotten a negotiated settlement.


  • I went with other…but my thoughts are really a combination of two.

    1. Oil, must have oil.  The Caucasus campaign had to happen as Germany needed the resources (especially oil) that Russia had.  But also,

    2. eliminate the pockets and play defense…because Russia just had so many men to throw into offensive battles.  I read somewhere that in the North, where the German commanders had some leeway to give up land for a good defensive position, they were able to obtain a 6 to 1 loss ratio.  What might have been accomplished will full permission to do this?  This would have bleed the Russians white had Germany been able to do so over the whole front (which of course they would not have without the oil needed for industry).


  • Could the U.S.S.R survive without the grain produced in the South? Had the Germans captured the Caucasus in 41 how would this changed the War?


  • I was not aware it would have been a problem and do not know whether they had other sources. Can it be stored up long term? They were exporting to Germany, so must have had a surplus. Or did they always overproduce?
    I am sure it would not have unduly affected them. Was it that Germany needed it more?
    Do not think I have been much help!


  • They should never have attacked Russia in the first place, if russia attacked them its a totally different situation the russian populace wouldn’t have the same malice/wanting revenge and if the russians failed maybe they could sue for peace.

    Efforts should have been focused on bringing down the UK either by more efforts towards the battle of britain or raeder’s plan to bring it down by attacking its colonies and cutting off the supply.


  • @wittmann:

    I was not aware it would have been a problem and do not know whether they had other sources. Can it be stored up long term?

    Yes, oil can be stockpiled.  When the US imposed an oil embargo on Japan around mid-1941, Japan calculated that its strategic reserves of oil would only last it about two years (as I recall), so it had that long to either secure new sources (mainly in the Dutch East Indies) or to reach a deal with the US to get the embargo lifted  (which would have meant Japan pulling out of China).

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Azrael:

    They should never have attacked Russia in the first place, if russia attacked them its a totally different situation the russian populace wouldn’t have the same malice/wanting revenge and if the russians failed maybe they could sue for peace.

    Efforts should have been focused on bringing down the UK either by more efforts towards the battle of britain or raeder’s plan to bring it down by attacking its colonies and cutting off the supply.

    Yes…

    And LOL YES Oil can be stored long term.  BUT, Oil and Gas is deliberated treated by the government, with chemicals that will break it down after 1 - 3 years (depending) deliberating, as part of anti-stockpiling measures.  I’m very deadly serious…

    The U.S. military supposedly has an oil stockpile for all of America’s needs, to the tune of 10 to 15 years or something…  That’s if you totally turned off the tap.


  • @Gargantua:

    The U.S. military supposedly has an oil stockpile for all of America’s needs, to the tune of 10 to 15 years or something…  That’s if you totally turned off the tap.

    are you sure about that Garg? do you have source for that?

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    If you snoop around the US Department of Energy websites, and other government websites, you’ll hear that the U.S. Economy uses anywhere from 5-7 billion barrels of oil - at current consumption, each year.  And you’ll hear that the U.S. -Emergency stockpile, is anywhere from only 1 Billion barrels to 100 billion barrels stored in reserve.

    You’ll also learn that American Stockpiles (already extracted) are not under the control of a single source, and there-in lies the biggest problem in calculating the total reserve amount.  Everywhere from your local gas station, to the HUGE national reserves, to refineries, to oil in transit can be calculated in this equation…  That’s ALOT of oil.  And we haven’t even begun to talk about what’s still in the ground.

    If you read between the lines you’ll also learn that Off shore -embargo’s- and -wildlife preservations- etc, are simply, very GOOD strategic ways, to guard the oil at home -that we know about-, in the event of a world war, or other catastrophic oil cevent ocurs, we’ve still got MANY wells to dig right here on our own soil.  It’s an excellent strategy overall. Designed to keep the ‘Western Powers’ crowned.  Consider this, whilst reading the next news article about Arctic Soveirgnty…

    Anybody interested in the future of America, it’s defense, or it’s position on a -world power- scale, isn’t going to be letting anyone else know about it’s strategic oil position publically.  That would be stupid.

    Also - please  earn that the U.S. Military OWNS the rights to drilling in several states/areas.  Where of course… no drilling is occurring currently, and they also have emergency legal provisions BY LAW, that would allow them to extract oil from basically anywhere with the right approvals…  (Think extreme crisis here).

    I could go into an essay, but take the BIG picture in tow…

    We’re making sure we drill oil elsewhere, and use it up…  much of North America is -not oil explored-, the U.S. Military/powers-that-are, know how critical oil is to the military, government, economy, American people.

    Learning from what happend to the Japanese in WWII, and having already faced off OPEC and other entities, the U.S. Government and military, are not absolute IDIOTS. (Not all of them anyways). And have made provisions and plans for america’s oil futures.

    My best guess is that they have (above ground / already drilled) atleast a 10 year supply, if drilling stopped today, and if you consider some basic rationing imposed.

    Of course, a -10 year- supply turns into a several HUNDRED YEAR supply if you consider all of the oil that we’ve legally preserved/protected that’s still in the ground, in places like ANWAR, off shore, and what’s under the northern shield. Crisis averted.

    If you are wondering, I used to work in the petroleum industry… anything you’ve ever heard about an -oil- crisis, or -peak oil- is a bunch of bollocks.

    Basically all life that have died under water, (plants animals etc) or in unoxygenated enviroments, over the TRILLION+ year history of the earth, has converted itself into oil, and we’ve really only been extracting oil in the last 100 years.

    As for the high price of gas, it’s a manufactured % profit.

    Essentially NO NEW refineries have been built in North America since 1979…  as any new ones built, would increase the supply, thus lowering the demand… lower demand, means lower price… lower price, means lower profit…  why would you as an oil company, spend $10 Billion dollars on a new oil refinery to LOWER the price of gas? DUMB.  Hence Oil companies are basically looking for the sweet spot… and the governments has got their hand in that pocket (tax revenue) too.

    If a genie delivered 1 trillion oils of barrel today to texas, and gave them away for free.  The price of gas wouldn’t change, because the refineries are still operating at maximum capacity, and can only produce so much gasoline etc, that we’re all willing to pay the bill for.

    My source is my experience, and COMMON SENSE, and the fear mongering that’s out there exists to create doubt, and raise price / profit.  Make no mistake… the LARGEST contributers to enviromental groups like Green Peace - are often oil companies,  as Conflict decrease supply, and increases demand!

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=607&t=6

    I found that link the most -reasonable-, for an objective source of the information I’m talking about.

    But again, oil reserves are a SERIOUS matter of national defense, as well as Petroelum industry futures/value.  You have to read between the lines, and take everything with a grain of salt.

    For Example… Let’s say you are a petroleum Geologist, and you do a survey in your backyard - and YOU find out there is a 1 million barrel or so supply down there - which you’re currently prohibited from drilling for in your state.  You probably wouldnt tell anyone until the law changed, and you would NEVER sell your house… unless you were cashing out.

    And if somehow the entire global economy/society went into a new dark age, you’d probably count on that for your oil supply. Wouldn’t you?


  • great posts Gargantua, I will check them out ,i apreciate that you took the time to break it down to me…

Suggested Topics

  • 15
  • 1
  • 3
  • 6
  • 2
  • 4
  • 38
  • 2
Axis & Allies Boardgaming Custom Painted Miniatures

43

Online

17.0k

Users

39.3k

Topics

1.7m

Posts