What if?

[Imperious Leader]

The British fleet didn’t bother to show up when they needed to get the BEF and french out at Dunkirk.

Why is their any indication that if the Germans invaded from the same place, that the British would have done anything to stop it?

The Germans with 4:1 air superiority could not come close to sinking fishing boats and tugboats ferrying wounded men. Once the Germans cross to Dover in real ships the British would have no answer and would chew up their air forces in short order and her pilots would be landing in the sea, rather than parachuting on a farm to be reused latter.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Japan would have lost to the Russians just like they did in 39, but even wose they would not be able to capture any of the raw materials they needed to not be a third world country in 3 years.

Italy would have mismanaged her conquests and arab subjects similiar to the turks so although it may have threaghted baku aswell as allied supplies to Russia is would have not been a big a deal as it would have been under competent leadership that the Italians did not have.

Japan winning a major victory at Midway would have severly hurt American efforts, although it might have down well for american propaganda as they could easly paint it as a defensive battle and could rally more support for the cause. Also since it is a naval battle there would have been less causalties so it would have less of a political factor.

The Germans would have messed up sealion even if they had air supeirority, there are not so many beaches in engalnd and the engalnd would have a sizible force fighting for there homeland and being backed by the US that could bottleneck the Germans on the beaches. Plus they still have naval suppeiority.

Losing D-day would have been devistating, espeacialy if it was a long battle and their were tons of British and American causaulties. I get the sence some Americans were already tired of the war and losing so many men would have just incouraged the anti-war camp. It would have been painted as just another european conflict like WW1.
Or anti war groups might say Japan was the right war and Germany was just a distraction, (to draw a paralel to Afgahnistan and Iraq today, )

[Zhukov44]

The war was already decided before D-Day, so I wouldn’t include that one.

The Battle of Britian was obviously decisive.  Actually I think Japan attacking USSR would have been a big deal too, specifically if it had kept the USA out of the war a little longer.

[Imperious Leader]

right. anything from summer 1942 and latter is not really a ‘what if’, unless your just thinking about making the war longer. The result is the same.

[Deaths Head 420]

@Imperious:

right. anything from summer 1942 and latter is not really a ‘what if’, unless your just thinking about making the war longer. The result is the same.

But at this stage Hitler should have realized it wAS A LONG SHOT TO WIN THE WAR.  Hitler should have sent all her resources on Super Subs. :roll: That way they could take full advantage of their Wolfpack NA.  :evil: :roll:

Sorry, Hijacked

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@Imperious:

The British fleet didn’t bother to show up when they needed to get the BEF and french out at Dunkirk.

Why is their any indication that if the Germans invaded from the same place, that the British would have done anything to stop it?

The Germans with 4:1 air superiority could not come close to sinking fishing boats and tugboats ferrying wounded men. Once the Germans cross to Dover in real ships the British would have no answer and would chew up their air forces in short order and her pilots would be landing in the sea, rather than parachuting on a farm to be reused latter.

IL that is actually not quite true…the Britian had allready start working on some fortifications, flametowerbunker,mines, deathtraps and so on…The UK was very aware that a possible Invasion could occur…nevertheless
Hitler decided not to Invade for some reason.
It is mentioned that he felt sympathy for England and on the other hand the space in the East was his ultimate and primary goal…why he started to get ready for the amphibious assault and suddenly changed his mind is better to understand from his political intrest point of view like other decissions he made during the whole east campagne…I have even the Opinion that to conquer and hold a territory like the UK and going on a warfare w. an even bigger enemy and landmass would not be wisley, it is rather force and resource consuming…and that the war was lost in 1942 ,I don’t share that opinion that much either based on If other choices would have been made it could look like a lot diffrent than the actual outcome…Greek, the Balkan and africa were always a sidekick Theatre to him, this is why the supplys for africa felt so short because it had less priority…

[Imperious Leader]

I meant to stop the invasion in the sea by using their home fleet. If they could not bring it to ferry the BEF and french 20 miles, then how and why does everyone fear the fleet in the channel fighting the Germans.

I feel that the Luftwaffe would be able to protect the invasion.

as far as the landing on the beaches at Dover and Ramgate…the fortifications were nothing compared to what the Allies faced at D-Day. right?

[aequitas-et-veritas]

right!!..caught you on the wrong foot…I apologize

[tloger]

I am still surprised that Japan attacking Russia got some votes.  You have to realize the Russians would not have to expend that much to repel a Japanese offenseive, the Chinese would recognize this and would be on a full out offensive to recapture lands lost and avenge Nanking.

[Lucifer]

Imo, the initial question is not precise enough, it’s not about Germany winning the air war against UK, it’s about “eliminating”, or at least removing UK as an enemy, it doesn’t matter if sealion are executed or if some German assassins kills Churchill and the other prime minister will make a deal with Germany to be allied with the Germans, or to stay neutral.

But obviously, if there was any successful sealion operation, ……I would would probably be much better at typing in the German language then in English, even if you can see that English is not my first language…Norwegian or swede or any other nationalities, a German victory against UK would be devastating.

If Germany wont teh WAR against UK before any war against Russia, the odds of Germany winning is much higher.

Japan could not win anything from the US which is not giving away for free, but if Japan choose not to engage the US, but Russia instead, it could take 10-30 years to win a lot of square km2, but it could be (possibly) done.

[Guest]

Battle of Britain

[soldat]

If UK lost the air battle the US would have been forced to come into the war earlier, and we all know what happened when the US got rolling.  The battle of midway and DDay already means the US is in the war so the end is already decided.  Japanese attacking the USSR or any success by the Italians are the most important in my opinion.

[idk_iam_swiss]

We also know what happens when America enters wars without being attacked first…they wimp out and go home. Honestly losing the air war would have been devestating to the allies.

[Historybuff]

I still say that Japan attacking Russia would have been bad for the Allies beacause the forces that made up the bulk of the Russian counterattack outside of Moscow came from Siberia.  They came west once Stalin realized that Japan wasn’t going to attack.  The Germans might have been able to take Moscow and more if it weren’t for those troops from Siberia.  Plus Japan had been preparing for an invasion of Russia for years they would have know what they were doing.  They would have at least tied down Russian forces that were desperatly needed at the eastern front.  And even if the British lost the Battle of Britan, Germany didn’t have the resources to invade.

[balungaloaf]

@idk_iam_swiss:

We also know what happens when America enters wars without being attacked first…they wimp out and go home. Honestly losing the air war would have been devestating to the allies.

evidence?  if you say vietnam i’m going to give you a long post for a history lesson.

[Lucifer]

This is the short version of the Vietnam war: US won the military victory, but the US did not win a political victory.
The geo-strategical goals was not achieved.

War is an expansion of politics, and so the US lost this one.

[Adlertag]

@Subotai:

This is the short version of the Vietnam war: US won the military victory, but the US did not win a political victory.
The geo-strategical goals was not achieved.

War is an expansion of politics, and so the US lost this one.

No no no. US did not win any military victory. They had to stick’em up with a white flag and run home. Butt US had the military capasity to win a military victory, if they were not backstabbed by their own politicians. It was poor play by JFK, who was on drugs, and later Nixon who was a criminal, that booged down the US military effort. Look, the poor pesants from North Vietnam would never in burning hell be able to kick out any western military power even if they tried. The Nam was kind of a suicide. Our muscles was ready to fight, butt our leaders used porridge as brain, and that basically got us down.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

hmmm, there where only checkpoints no frontlines for the U.S.!
I think somebody reported it but they must have overheard it?! :?…

[Zhukov44]

@Historybuff:

I still say that Japan attacking Russia would have been bad for the Allies beacause the forces that made up the bulk of the Russian counterattack outside of Moscow came from Siberia.  They came west once Stalin realized that Japan wasn’t going to attack.  The Germans might have been able to take Moscow and more if it weren’t for those troops from Siberia.  Plus Japan had been preparing for an invasion of Russia for years they would have know what they were doing.  They would have at least tied down Russian forces that were desperatly needed at the eastern front.  And even if the British lost the Battle of Britan, Germany didn’t have the resources to invade.

Good points.  Another reason occurred to me recently why Japan didn’t attack Russia…I wonder if it’s valid in the light of scrutiny.  What if Japan was worried that the Russians would use their industrial capacity to supply weapons to the Chinese?  With China, Allies would have a limitless reserve of manpower…they would just need the guns and ammo to fight with.  There is no way the Japanese could blockade a Russian-Sino supply line, so they needed the peace treaty with Russia.  Not to mention the long term problem of China and the Soviets forming an anti-Japanese alliance, and the Soviets pressuring the Chinese Communists to resolve their differences and form a Popular Front with the Nationalists.

[idk_iam_swiss]

no I am not bashing americas military(it is one of if not the most advanced in the world today). I am however slighting there lack of commitment to actual conflicts that take more than a year. America just doesnt know how to control its own people!