Sub Destroyer Handicap

[a44bigdog]

Under those conditions mojo, the sub and fighters could sink the sub and destroyer IF the sub hit. The sub hit would have to be taken on the sub if the fighters hit because the destroyer would have to take those. If only the fighters hit they could only hit the destroyer as there was no friendly destroyer present. The defending sub can hit the attacking sub and the defending destroyer could hit the attacking fighters.

[mojo]

so your saying having a dd was to my disadvantage,  as a defender.  but if i had a sub + 1 tran it would be to my advantage.  i guess i just can’t grasp that concept.  i don’t believe you skip steps because defender has a dd.  what says it all to me  is step 3:  attacker fires all remaining units except(subs which have fired or submerged).  nowhere does it say subs which have NOT fired.  so by step 3,  all attacking subs have fired or submerged.  its plain as day to me there.  again 44 thanks for your help on this issue.

[Krieghund]

@mojo:

so your saying having a dd was to my disadvantage,  as a defender.  but if i had a sub + 1 tran it would be to my advantage.  i guess i just can’t grasp that concept.

~~I don’t see the disadvantage.  The situation would be exactly the same if you had a transport and a sub, except your defense roll would be weaker.  If the sub and one or more fighters hit, your sub would take the sub hit and your transport would take the fighter hit.  If only fighters hit, the transport would take the hit and the sub would be safe.  If only the sub hit, it would be your choice to take the hit on either the sub or the transport.  The casualties are assigned in exactly the same way no matter what type of surface ship is accompanying the sub.

A battleship would change things slightly, of course, as it can take two hits.  This would allow you to sink the battleship to save the sub unless the sub and two or more fighters hit.~~

@mojo:

i don’t believe you skip steps because defender has a dd.   what says it all to me  is step 3:  attacker fires all remaining units except(subs which have fired or submerged).  nowhere does it say subs which have NOT fired.

Yes, it does.  It says it in the very sentence you have paraphrased: “(except submarines that have already attacked or submerged)”.  Subs that have not yet fired are not a part of the group “submarines that have already attacked or submerged”, as they have done neither.  Therefore, they are not excepted, which means they are included.

[mojo]

man the more points you bring up the more i think i’m correct.  in your case things would totally be differnt if i had a sub + 1 tran,  because step 2 subs fire, he would get the sneak attacks so if that sub hits i would pull trany as casuality,  that would leave just my sub against his figs so attack is over.  they don’t all attack at the same time,  it goes in steps.

as for your second piont it doesn’t say anything about subs that have not fired, nowhere,  thats my piont by step 3 all attacking subs have attacked or submerged.

do the attack with your pieces and actually move them and follow the steps 1-6. the’er are no grey areas here.  it’s black & white.
subs fire ,  remove causalites, rest of attacker fires, defender fires, again remove casualites.

[Krieghund]

@mojo:

man the more points you bring up the more i think i’m correct.  in your case things would totally be differnt if i had a sub + 1 tran,  because step 2 subs fire, he would get the sneak attacks so if that sub hits i would pull trany as casuality,  that would leave just my sub against his figs so attack is over.  they don’t all attack at the same time,  it goes in steps.

You’re right on this point.  It does make a difference if you have a surface ship other than a destroyer, as the attacking sub would fire before anything else.  That’s what I get for posting when I’m half asleep.  I apologize for any confusion caused by this mistake.   :oops:

As I said before, there are some quirks inherent in the combat system due to the interaction of subs, destroyers and fighters.  Sometimes you can be at a disadvantage from having a destroyer.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that the steps do play out as a44bigdog and I have described.

@mojo:

as for your second piont it doesn’t say anything about subs that have not fired, nowhere,   thats my piont by step 3 all attacking subs have attacked or submerged.

do the attack with your pieces and actually move them and follow the steps 1-6. the’er are no grey areas here.  it’s black & white.
subs fire ,  remove causalites, rest of attacker fires, defender fires, again remove casualites.

This discussion has exceeded the point of being productive.  We must agree to disagree.

[Krieghund]

This discussion has made me curious.  Is there anyone out there reading this that feels that the wording of the rules on this issue is ambiguous enough to warrant an FAQ entry?

[mojo]

again to both of you guys,  thank you for your input. we will have to agree to disagree, but i would like a few more people to chime in.

hey luckyday, if you agree with the interpertation of the rules by krieg & a 44, i’ll give in and continue the game. let me know

[murraymoto]

i’m fairly new to the game too, and we had the discussion shortly too about the presence of defending DD putting them at a disadvantage.  But we thought it probably because of the influence of Revised and such.  it’s that beauty of getting to decide what to loose here, as compared to more randomness of Bulge and Guadalcanal, which we had been playing.

We reread it a couple times and decided that it was as someone stated earlier, that basically the presence of a DD removed the whole step for sub first strike and all the subs just attacked with the rest of the force.  I think there can be some ambiguity read from the rules, I’m not sure what the burden of proof on the matter has to be to push it to the errata though.

[Shakespeare]

Krieg

Could you issue a comparison, side by side, denoting the differences between
Revised Sub Rules and Pacific Sub Rules.

Hopefully these are the only 2 options regarding subs!

Are there different Sub Rules in AA50? in Guadacanal?

I’m OK with the Battle of the Bulge!  :-D

[Krieghund]

Here are the major differences:

In Revised, all subs fire in Opening fire, but their casualties are removed immediately only if there is no enemy destroyer.
In Pacific, only attacking subs get First Strike (firing before everything else), and only if there is no defending destroyer.

In Revised, subs may fire and then submerge.
In Pacific, subs may fire or submerge.

In Revised, subs submerge at the end of the combat round.
In Pacific, attacking subs submerge at the beginning of the combat round, while defending ones submerge during defender fire.

In Revised, the presence of an enemy destroyer keeps subs from submerging.
In Pacific, it doesn’t.

In Revised, subs can always be hit by air units.
In Pacific, subs can be hit by air units only if there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the sea zone.

For differences between Revised and Anniversary, see this document.  Guadalcanal’s system is so different as to make direct comparison pointless.

[saburo sakai]

@Krieghund:

• The presence of an enemy destroyer prevents submerging in both games.

Kreighund,

This is the only statement that I think is incorrect.

The FAQ for AAPacific reads, in part, as follows:

Attacking subs, however, can move into a sea zone and immediately submerge (this is called sub-stalling – for an in-depth analysis of this essential tactic, see James Redford’s Explanation of Sub-Stalling essay).

Further, the rule book does not have any statement that a DD prevents a sub from submerging, only that it negates its first strike attack and that it permits planes to attack subs.

SS

[Krieghund]

Yep, you’re right, Saburo.  Man, it’s been a long time since I’ve played Pacific.   :oops:

Previous post corrected and +1 karma to Saburo.