Building Italian fleet - is there a point?

[dondoolee]

@Funcioneta:

@dondoolee:

Time is not on the Axis’ side

I disagree. Time is not on the allied side, because (with NO’s) axis will reach economic advantage round 3 or 4 as much. It can be easily a 10 IPCs advantage, but I guess when axis strats improve, it will be even better. If allies suicide and try KGF, the advantage will be [k]even[/k] greater (lose of Hawaii, aus, nzel and USA’s Pacific NO, probably added by Alaska). Allies need a way of defending all their territories they can and recover economic parity as soon they can or game will be over

Of course, first priority for UK is killing italian navy or at least forcing her to escape to Indian Ocean. But this is a must, yet not enough, to win

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

[ogrebait]

@dondoolee:

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

I can’t say that I have a great deal of experience here, but the Axis have won every game that I have played that went past 8 rounds. I have another one going that is in it’s 9th round, and it is still a toss up.

Now, I’ve also had some games that went less than 8 rounds in which the Axis lost (or more correctly, conceded), but that was generally due to a careless error or horrible dice in the early rounds.

The key factor in each of the Axis victories was Japan. It seems to take 7-8 rounds until Japan can build up its forces and get them to the doorstep of an Allied capital. If Germany and Italy can hold out that long, then Japan becomes very difficult to stop.

That being said, individual mileage may vary.

[dondoolee]

@ogrebait:

@dondoolee:

While time being on the Allies side I agree is debatable, how many times have you played an 8+ turn game while the Allies lost (other than some MAJOR flukey dice, or a MAJOR oversite)?

I can’t say that I have a great deal of experience here, but the Axis have won every game that I have played that went past 8 rounds. I have another one going that is in it’s 9th round, and it is still a toss up.

Now, I’ve also had some games that went less than 8 rounds in which the Axis lost (or more correctly, conceded), but that was generally due to a careless error or horrible dice in the early rounds.

The key factor in each of the Axis victories was Japan. It seems to take 7-8 rounds until Japan can build up its forces and get them to the doorstep of an Allied capital. If Germany and Italy can hold out that long, then Japan becomes very difficult to stop.

That being said, individual mileage may vary.

Interesting, I wonder how common that is.  This is a bit off topic, so I think I will create a new thread.  I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

[ogrebait]

@dondoolee:

I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

Well, on my computer, hold down the left mouse button, highlight the text of interest, “click” the right mouse button, select “copy” from the drop-down menu, open new topic window, “right click” in the text box, select “paste” from the drop-down menu.

Add your comments and post.

[dondoolee]

@ogrebait:

@dondoolee:

I don’t know if there is a way to cut and paste this conversation, if you know how please feel free to do so.

Well, on my computer, hold down the left mouse button, highlight the text of interest, “click” the right mouse button, select “copy” from the drop-down menu, open new topic window, “right click” in the text box, select “paste” from the drop-down menu.

Add your comments and post.

Wow, talk about the ultimate brain fart.  I guess I wasn’t clever enough to think of something I knew how to do when I was 10 yrs old.  Anyway, it’s copied under the thread “longer games”

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

[ogrebait]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

Been there, done that. It proved to be a good distraction to the US player, but I don’t think it was of great strategic value. I am currently of the opinion that just being in a position to threaten an invasion of Brazil may be useful enough, but only after the security of the Italian Fleet has been taken care of.

A lot depends on how the game unfolds. If the US is not in position to immediately retake Brazil, sacrificing a tranny and 1 inf (10 IPC investment for 6 IPC swing per turn) may be worthwhile.

[dondoolee]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Perhaps there needs to be new strategies developed for an Italian fleet.  Anyone consider invading Brazil?

There is a small (very small) chance you could pincer America into a 2 way sucker punch.  Don’t move navy T1, buy tranny.  Move tranny to edge of Med, set up the Jap navy to attack Alaska on T2.  Or some refined version of that.  Not recomended for serious play, but a funny and fun way to try a strat once or twice in your life.  I haven’t had the balls to try it yet though, as I still feel I am excited about still learning the mechanics of the game (it has not gotten close to stale yet for me).  The reality is though, if the Allies want them dead they are dead.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

i figure id wait for an opening, then do a hit and run.  Land, then pull my fleet far to the south and try and bait the US into chasing me.  see how far they’ll go.  :lol:

[Twigley]

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

[Zhukov44]

I suppose all this might be possible, but only if USA is going all or mainly Pacific, and only if Germany has a factory in France or Bulgaria/Romania that can reinforce the Med fleet.

[dondoolee]

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

[Panzer Leader]

@Perry:

I’m curious. Do you build boats with Italy?
What would the purpose of Italian ships be, and have you ever acheived anything valuable with the Ita fleet (other than having it wiped out mid-game by US).

I believe that an Italian fleet is very important and chances are the Axis will loose if they loose the Med and Italy’s fleet. A trick I have used on G1 (in 41 and 42 game) is to buy an IC on France right away. On Italy’s turn save all your money and move the whole fleet to south of France. Then on Germany’s turn buy several ships (dd, trans, & sub) to add to the fleet, so on UK’s turn there are too many ships for them to attack. Then on I2 buy a carrier and trans and try to take Egypt and/or Trans-Jordan. On G2 buy more ships and ground forces to move to Africa. Make sure all your transports (I & G) are always full going across every turn, even if just “bridging” to re-inforce. Work on getting all Italy’s NO’s ASAP and keep moving guys across and enlarging your fleet. If Germany can spare the money they could add their own carrier to the fleet and it starts to get real large. Do not buy a German fleet in the Baltic, add it to the Italian fleet, it lasts longer and makes it a lot harder for the allies. 8-)

[dondoolee]

@Panzer:

@Perry:

I’m curious. Do you build boats with Italy?
What would the purpose of Italian ships be, and have you ever acheived anything valuable with the Ita fleet (other than having it wiped out mid-game by US).

I believe that an Italian fleet is very important and chances are the Axis will loose if they loose the Med and Italy’s fleet. A trick I have used on G1 (in 41 and 42 game) is to buy an IC on France right away. On Italy’s turn save all your money and move the whole fleet to south of France. Then on Germany’s turn buy several ships (dd, trans, & sub) to add to the fleet, so on UK’s turn there are too many ships for them to attack. Then on I2 buy a carrier and trans and try to take Egypt and/or Trans-Jordan. On G2 buy more ships and ground forces to move to Africa. Make sure all your transports (I & G) are always full going across every turn, even if just “bridging” to re-inforce. Work on getting all Italy’s NO’s ASAP and keep moving guys across and enlarging your fleet. If Germany can spare the money they could add their own carrier to the fleet and it starts to get real large. Do not buy a German fleet in the Baltic, add it to the Italian fleet, it lasts longer and makes it a lot harder for the allies. 8-)

That is still WAY more costly, less agressive (particularly on your Russian neighbor who does not need ships to threaten you), and less flexible than air units.

[Zhukov44]

@dondoolee:

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

Yeah I gotta agree.  If I was buying a carrier turn 1, I’m not sure where I’d find the units to accomplish my objectives in Africa and help protect France.  If the Allies are KGF then the Jap carrier is pretty much the only option IMO…but if the Allies are all or mostly on Japan its a different ballgame.

[dondoolee]

@Zhukov44:

@dondoolee:

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

Yeah I gotta agree.  If I was buying a carrier turn 1, I’m not sure where I’d find the units to accomplish my objectives in Africa and help protect France.  If the Allies are KGF then the Jap carrier is pretty much the only option IMO…but if the Allies are all or mostly on Japan its a different ballgame.

Yeah, a more KJF allied strat is for sure a different ballgame.

[Panzer Leader]

That is still WAY more costly, less agressive (particularly on your Russian neighbor who does not need ships to threaten you), and less flexible than air units.

You are correct that it is alot more costly. The idea is to get your fleet to a point where you only need to add to it a little and you can stay ahead of the Allies, but you cannot let up on Russia and still have to be as aggressive you can with whats left and what you start with. You still spend the rest of the IPCs on ground troops for the first couple of turns to send Russia’s way and try to secure Germany’s NOs as well. Then buy planes to fill the carriers, one with Italy and a couple with Germany. If Italy/Germany can secure the Med and move south into Africa for money and east into Persia so you can then hit Russia in Cacauscus from Persia, from Ukraine and from the Black Sea simultainously and hold it. Plan it after Russia goes and use one then the other to re-inforce.

I am not saying it is fool proof but it has worked for me. It does maybe take a little longer but you don’t loose your Italian fleet and you start to take off with the money earning way more then the Allies. Japan of course has to do its part to go after Russia (and India and China) as well.

If you can stay ahead and start bringing Russia down to size, you can then move that fleet into the Atlantic beside France and plan for UK/America invasion. Usually you win with victory cities by that point. 8-)

I have played the all out ground forces against Russia game where you let Italy stand on its own and that can work as well, but like you said you have to buy lots of planes to take out UK fleets, which can be costly as well trading planes for ships. If Italy falls before Russia does that can be a big blow to Germany. :-(

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Italy’s objective is to keep the Med clean.  spending IPCs on planes seems a bit more flexible and cost effective, specially if you want to shift gears and hit Russia instead.

[takerwwe5849]

all subs lol, i did that once, it was funny :-P

[Crossover]

aa50; with NOs; Germany attacked Egypt:

I usually buy as Italy 1 Inf + 1 Art and save 3 IPC

Italy conquers Egypt + Trans Jordan, gets 11 IPC income + 2x5 IPC for NOs + 3 saved = 24 IPC total
wait for UK and US, what do they build?

If they build fleet, react round 2 with an AC + fighter.
If not, build whatever you want.

Either way, this is the most flexibel solution for Italy