@trig said in Which shipyard is that capital ship at?!?:
@captainnapalm Post-it notes. Rip them longways (so both are sticky) and write the territory name. Then stick it to the ship on the chart.
This is exactly what I do too!
Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships
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Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
You move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
[Section edited with correction from Trig, below].
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
All corrections in bold. Read them.
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
CorrectYou move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
Correct
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
Also correct
If you move a plane out on MAP during the combat movement phase, you cannot then move it back to land during non-combat movement of the same turn, because a unit cannot move during both combat movement and non-combat movement, per 10.1, Page 45, Non-Combat Movement: “During non-combat movement you may move units that did not move during combat movement.”
Wrong. Planes may move in both combat and non combat. Look at at is it this way. You say that if you made a combat move, then you cannot make a noncom. Being on MAP is a combat move. Thus by you reckoning, you could NEVER land, as you would have always made a combat move. That is obviously not the way this works.
So the way to conceptualize this is that attacking submarines is nothing at all like attacking land units or surface ships. It is months of tedious flight patterns where you locate nothing at all, but then you stumble upon a u-boat and there are a few minutes of adrenaline release. When you go after submarines with MAP, it isn’t like a sortie where you fly a mission bombing and then return to the airbase. You move the aircraft out into the sea zone and it is staying there for 6 months hunting submarines. If you want to pull it off MAP, you have to do it next turn during non-combat movement, so it will miss the opportunity to fly another combat mission that turn. In a way, you only get use of the aircraft every other turn when you go on MAP (although it is protecting the convoy line during your enemy’s next turn, before you return it).
Rember, you are not flying nonstop for 6 months. You are flying a patrol, returning, flying a patrol, returning, etc. You can stop that patrol at any point and head off the prepare for another assignment. It makes sense that you could change after one turn. Otherwise, you would need to go on MAP tun 1, go off MAP turn 2, then go back on MAP turn 3, just to hit another sub next door. In reality, you would just change you patrol pattern. There is no need to waste a YEAR, just to patrol for one sub. It makes sense that you would patrol, if you don’t find thing you could leaven and then go search somewhere else for another 6 months.
So, I encourage you to not be too hasty in your generalization. It makes sense that, like other planes, aircraft on MAP could move in both combat and noncombat. -
@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
All corrections in bold. Read them.
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
CorrectYou move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
Correct
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
Also correct
If you move a plane out on MAP during the combat movement phase, you cannot then move it back to land during non-combat movement of the same turn, because a unit cannot move during both combat movement and non-combat movement, per 10.1, Page 45, Non-Combat Movement: “During non-combat movement you may move units that did not move during combat movement.”
Wrong. Planes may move in both combat and non combat. Look at at is it this way. You say that if you made a combat move, then you cannot make a noncom. Being on MAP is a combat move. Thus by you reckoning, you could NEVER land, as you would have always made a combat move. That is obviously not the way this works.
So the way to conceptualize this is that attacking submarines is nothing at all like attacking land units or surface ships. It is months of tedious flight patterns where you locate nothing at all, but then you stumble upon a u-boat and there are a few minutes of adrenaline release. When you go after submarines with MAP, it isn’t like a sortie where you fly a mission bombing and then return to the airbase. You move the aircraft out into the sea zone and it is staying there for 6 months hunting submarines. If you want to pull it off MAP, you have to do it next turn during non-combat movement, so it will miss the opportunity to fly another combat mission that turn. In a way, you only get use of the aircraft every other turn when you go on MAP (although it is protecting the convoy line during your enemy’s next turn, before you return it).
Rember, you are not flying nonstop for 6 months. You are flying a patrol, returning, flying a patrol, returning, etc. You can stop that patrol at any point and head off the prepare for another assignment. It makes sense that you could change after one turn. Otherwise, you would need to go on MAP tun 1, go off MAP turn 2, then go back on MAP turn 3, just to hit another sub next door. In reality, you would just change you patrol pattern. There is no need to waste a YEAR, just to patrol for one sub. It makes sense that you would patrol, if you don’t find thing you could leaven and then go search somewhere else for another 6 months.
So, I encourage you to not be too hasty in your generalization. It makes sense that, like other planes, aircraft on MAP could move in both combat and noncombat.Super helpful and this makes a lot of sense! Thank you again, Trig!
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast You are welcome
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MAP may need its own Quick Refererence Sheet with multiple examples given or a new video by @GeneralHandGrenade
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@noneshallpass Or both. Some more printed Player Aides or Playbook would greatly enhance understanding. Videos are a great compliment to written examples and rule clarifications.
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Destroyers negate the first strike ability of submarines.
Question #1: On the battle board, submarines have a target selection of 1. Do they have target selection?
Question #2: If they do have target selection, do destroyers negate the target selection?
My understanding is 1, yes and 2, no.
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast You are correct. They eretta’d the target selection on subs.
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Page 35, Maritime Air Patrol, Starting a Patrol: “Move aircraft into position within range and place a Maritime Air Patrol marker underneath.”
Does anyone do this? First, is there even a MAP marker we can purchase? Second, do we really need to do this? If there is a plane flying in a sea zone, it’s on MAP, right? Third, how does it work if someone wants to fly MAP in a sea zone where you are also going to have naval combat. Say you are moving 2 BB’s, 2 CA’s and 2 CL’s into a sea zone containing an enemy BB, CA, and CL. You also fly a sea plane into that sea zone on MAP and decline to participate in the naval combat. So you fight out the naval battle without the sea plane, correct?
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If an aircraft is on MAP and a submarine enters the sea zone, the aircraft decides if it wants to engage the submarine. If it declines, the submarine may continue moving. If the aircraft engages, it gets one shot at the submarine before it submerges, ending its movement.
Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.
Page 36, 8.9 Submarines, “A destroyer may pair 1:1 with aircraft on MAP to participate in an attack on a submarine.”
If an aircraft on MAP with a paired destroyer attack 3 submarines, it is my understanding we resolve the attack against just one of the submarines and the other 2 are not involved.
Let’s say four submarines enter a sea zone with a CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. The fighter may act as if it is on MAP and chooses to do so. The MAP may then choose to engage in combat. It chooses to do so. Now we are going to have naval combat with four submarines vs the CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. Do I have this correct?
To summarize:
- Sole aircraft on MAP with no friendly naval units vs multiple submarines - 1 roll, but can stop them all?
- 1 MAP + 1 DD vs multiple submarines, only 1 submarine participates in the combat. Correct?
- MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
Page 35, Maritime Air Patrol, Starting a Patrol: “Move aircraft into position within range and place a Maritime Air Patrol marker underneath.”
Does anyone do this? First, is there even a MAP marker we can purchase? Second, do we really need to do this? If there is a plane flying in a sea zone, it’s on MAP, right? Third, how does it work if someone wants to fly MAP in a sea zone where you are also going to have naval combat. Say you are moving 2 BB’s, 2 CA’s and 2 CL’s into a sea zone containing an enemy BB, CA, and CL. You also fly a sea plane into that sea zone on MAP and decline to participate in the naval combat. So you fight out the naval battle without the sea plane, correct?
HBG has a “Combat Air Patrol” marker which can serve that purpose. CAP was introduced in Axis & Allies Pacific, I believe.
If you don’t have the markers, a colored chip under the plane can do the job.
I think it’s a good practice to distinguish between your aircraft left on MAP an aircraft that must return to base during the non-combat move, as they do not have the same range.
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@noneshallpass Always appreciate your input and insights, Noneshallpass! I do have the CAP markers, so I’ll use those.
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
- Sole aircraft on MAP with no friendly naval units vs multiple submarines - 1 roll, but can stop them all?
Rule 8.7 says that an aircraft on MAP may choose to engage in combat with “naval enemy units” that are in its sea zone and that defends against “enemy units” entering its sea zone. In both instances there is the use of plural, so I don’t see that you need to have a plane for each submarine.
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
- 1 MAP + 1 DD vs multiple submarines, only 1 submarine participates in the combat. Correct?
I think that the 1:1 ratio in rule 8.9 applies to the MAP and destroyer, so that you cannot send multiple destroyers to hunt subs if you only have one MAP aircraft, not the ratio vs the subs.
I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
- MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?
The MAP aircraft alone can force that if it wishes and does not need friendly units (rules 8.7 + 8.9).
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@noneshallpass It’s not that I “need” friendly units. I “want” them! I understand that the MAP alone can force the submarine into a fight. And I get that a MAP + DD can engage a submarine in combat on the MAP player’s turn. But what I wanted to ensure (before making another video and causing confusion), is that on the submarine player’s turn, the MAP player can force the submarine to fight all the naval forces in a sea zone if that submarine moves in.
On the MAP player’s turn, they cannot do this. They can’t move say 10 surface ships and a MAP into a sea zone and force a sub pack to fight them. They can only go after subs with MAP + DD pairs (at best).
But on the sub player’s turn, if a sub moves into a sea zone with 10 BB’s, 20 CL’s and one MAP, then the MAP can stop them and force them to fight the armada. That’s my understanding.
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@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.
Do others agree? If so, very powerful! 8 )
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@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.
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@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:
@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.
Thanks for the confirmation! Didn’t want to misinform others!
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