adolph nuttin up :)
The Watchmen
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIEtAAmrTm4&feature=related
ask your self the following:
how many of these people are doctors or lawyers? How many of these are self made men?
how many of these types have by association with comics have basically thrown away their lives with basically staying a kid and not moving forward?
Its just an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities. Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.
now ask yourself this:
which you prefer-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wrNMPRriwc&feature=related
or this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKDtm-PchFI&feature=related
if its not clear which is greater art and has a meaningful story and events, and which is something that is truly childish and will basically make your brain into mush.
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@Imperious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIEtAAmrTm4&feature=related
ask your self the following:
how many of these people are doctors or lawyers? How many of these are self made men?
how many of these types have by association with comics have basically thrown away their lives with basically staying a kid and not moving forward?
Yes, but, how many of them care to judge themselves by your standards? Who says that your standards are the yardstick by which all people should be measured?
Clearly, those people enjoy what they are doing enough to go out of their way to post it on YouTube so I doubt that they would consider it throwing away their lives.
And you are taking an extreme example of comic book lovers and making them the archetype. By contrast, I can say that Hitler didn’t read comic books and look how he turned out.
Its just an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities.
I’m sure that those guys, as well as Jermofoot and Frimmel, work, pay their bills, and take care of their progeny. At the very least they have a place to live, own a computer and a camera, and appear well fed. I can’t say whether or not they try to ditch jury duty or commit criminal acts, but there aren’t too many more adult responsibilities that are required of them.
Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.
I disagree. I have seen many comics that deal with adult issues. Some even created with a specific adult issue in mind. The format by which a message is delivered is irrelevant as long as the message is successfully delivered.
now ask yourself this:
which you prefer-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wrNMPRriwc&feature=related
or this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKDtm-PchFI&feature=related
if its not clear which is greater art and has a meaningful story and events, and which is something that is truly childish and will basically make your brain into mush.
I have an example for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6BCf_b8GfE
A robot, half man-half animal, and “living” scarecrow? Even without the flying monkeys it sounds like comic book garbage, doesn’t it? Except that particular movie won an academy award and was even nominated for “best picture” but lost to Gone With the Wind. Pretty distinguished company for a movie that , in your words, takes the real world and tries to fit the most audacious unbelievable situations that only a child can enjoy… a 40 year old child living at home with momma.
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@Imperious:
eh no and no. I guess you out to defend comic books ( or the more positive name created out of PC culture e.g. “Graphic Novel”–whatever) I don’t see the need to be defensive about somebody’s opinion. I’m just more into real stories or ones that are more thought provoking and less about ridiculous characters and situations that are not meant to be comedy but a serious plausible story.
At least with Star Trek your faced with the far future and plausible quasi-scientific science. Star Wars is less ‘realistic’ but at least its from another part of the galaxy. Id say in its possible at least to use this form of reality as a basis of making stories because for the most part you see a clear connection that its something far in the future.
Watchmen and all its inherents always take the real world and try to fit the most audacious unbelievable situations that only a child can enjoy… a 40 year old child living at home with momma.
Look at Transformers. God that was nothing but an excuse to take a bad idea that was done already and use it as a merchandising vehicle: for Taco Bell, Chevy, Hasbro, and a whole host of toys catered to the under 25 crowd.
The new Hulk movie i think made even less money that the first movie, but also because a plastic toy machine…pumping out countless trash.
The result of this rubbish becomes very low form of art for movies. Its no wonder that of all these types of movies the volume of Academy awards awarded to them is so LOW as a ratio of the total inventory of these movies that are created. Watchmen wont win anything and is considered very low artistic merit. I don’t exactly use the Academy as a final score for artistic success, but its kinda a benchmark for the best movies. Almost always the movies i prefer are invariably the ones that ended up being the best recognized for the craft of movie making.
I get it. trust me on this.
Ok, IL. Let me start over. You don’t get it. I’m not trying to be rude, but you aren’t at all trying to understand. Read the series and maybe you will. The Watchmen is not for kids. It’s not aimed at them or has content appropriate for them. It actually provokes thought. That’s the whole reason I brought up this topic.
Now, I’m not very much of a comics fan…sure I like them all right, but I haven’t seen all the Fantastic 4, Xmen, Spiderman, etc. movies. I know they are a corruption of the original tales, which aren’t exactly stellar pieces of literature or storytelling, but it’s entertainment for some and that’s fine. It’s not Stan Lee’s or any other comic producer’s fault that they don’t stand on their own. Yet so many times you hear that the movie is never like the book. The odds are against it.
I’m not much of a comic fan, but I have an open mind and have explored the options recently. I have found some stories that really resonate with me, or are just so on it that I can’t deny they are great pieces of work. Maybe not the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, but they aren’t a Reader’s Digest read of the month either. I’m pretty critical and for something to catch my attention and interest means a lot.
So instead of making cheap jabs at a format in general, why don’t you take a peek at an acclaimed series and then speak about what you don’t like concerning it. It’s not being made into a movie for nothing you know.
BTW, Hulk is Marvel, and furthermore nothing like The Watchmen. And that old crap you posted as an argument…BORING. :wink:
Ozymandias has spoken.
:lol:
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ok Jermo. Thats fine we just have to disagree thats all. Its no big deal to me, But i felt perhaps my post needed elaboration so i posted a different version of my sentiment.
Yes, but, how many of them care to judge themselves by your standards? Who says that your standards are the yardstick by which all people should be measured?
Clearly, those people enjoy what they are doing enough to go out of their way to post it on YouTube so I doubt that they would consider it throwing away their lives.
And you are taking an extreme example of comic book lovers and making them the archetype. By contrast, I can say that Hitler didn’t read comic books and look how he turned out.
Dude: nobody is making any of the claims you mention. I am just making my opinion and i am not even commenting on anybody in here in terms of standards of taste. I have seen these people in their feeding frenzy before. You cant make blanket statements and claim everybody fits the mold, but easily many of them do. For example you don’t find many lawyers playing with Tonka toys, but you do find that many of the older types still living at home DO get into comics and the kinds of things that are not really very mature, but interests that you may find a 14 year old having. Perhaps most of the the people who do buy and read comics are doctors and CEO’s but i don’t think they are. I think they fall in the lower classes.
I’m sure that those guys, as well as Jermofoot and Frimmel, work, pay their bills, and take care of their progeny. At the very least they have a place to live, own a computer and a camera, and appear well fed. I can’t say whether or not they try to ditch jury duty or commit criminal acts, but there aren’t too many more adult responsibilities that are required of them.
where do you get the idea that i’m commenting on Jermo and Frimmel ? Why even bring them up? I not even talking about jury duty or criminals. why even bring that up? Im just talking about a set of behaviors that are usually in the realm of kids and adults and how some kinds of movies like the comic book adaptations are a lower form of art usually for the former and not the latter.
i said:
Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.
I disagree. I have seen many comics that deal with adult issues. Some even created with a specific adult issue in mind. The format by which a message is delivered is irrelevant as long as the message is successfully delivered.
Find then proof that the comic book movies deliver this message more appropriately and effective than what you would find in a serious movie say like “Their will be blood” I think all the gimmickry and action will get in the way and the message will be very deluded. Basically if you got a movie about the ravages of Cancer for a family, your gonna be less effective if you got the Hulk as the father with Cancer, then with Tom Hanks in Philadelphia. The message as you say is not possibly delivered with the kind of sentimentality and force as some stupid dude that turns green when he gets mad.
sorry but it don’t work that way.
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A robot, half man-half animal, and “living” scarecrow? Even without the flying monkeys it sounds like comic book garbage, doesn’t it? Except that particular movie won an academy award and was even nominated for “best picture” but lost to Gone With the Wind. Pretty distinguished company for a movie that , in your words, takes the real world and tries to fit the most audacious unbelievable situations that only a child can enjoy… a 40 year old child living at home with momma.
thats not a comic book movie, so your point is? Also, i didn’t win the award so that kinda proved my point. Remember the movie was Dorothy’s dream and at the end she wakes up. If your telling me that watchmen is some kind of dream sequence, then im looking for planes, my name is Tatu and i’m living on fantasy island.
I am only talking about: c-o-m-i-c b-o-o-k-s m-a-d-e i-n-t-o- m-o-v-i-e-s
besides its a musical and everything is deliberately in a fairytale land.
Watchmen is basically the real world, present day earth with crazy events occurring. Most of the comic book movies are. And its easy to make plots and movies this way because the variance on what is plausible is so wide it shows the art form in these movies very poorly.
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@Imperious:
Yes, but, how many of them care to judge themselves by your standards? Who says that your standards are the yardstick by which all people should be measured?
Clearly, those people enjoy what they are doing enough to go out of their way to post it on YouTube so I doubt that they would consider it throwing away their lives.
And you are taking an extreme example of comic book lovers and making them the archetype. By contrast, I can say that Hitler didn’t read comic books and look how he turned out.
Dude: nobody is making any of the claims you mention. I am just making my opinion and i am not even commenting on anybody in here in terms of standards of taste. I have seen these people in their feeding frenzy before. You cant make blanket statements and claim everybody fits the mold, but easily many of them do. For example you don’t find many lawyers playing with Tonka toys, but you do find that many of the older types still living at home DO get into comics and the kinds of things that are not really very mature, but interests that you may find a 14 year old having. Perhaps most of the the people who do buy and read comics are doctors and CEO’s but i don’t think they are. I think they fall in the lower classes.
You just did judge them based on your own set of standards. By asking how many of them were doctors, lawyers, and self-made, you made it clear that if they didn’t aspire to or become one of those or a similar profession, that they were, by your standards and your words, “lower class”.
And my suggestion was that maybe they didn’t feel the need to classify themselves in your terms. They appear to be happy doing what they are doing whether you or anybody else likes it or not and so I doubted that they would consider what they are doing to be, according to you, throwing away their lives.
If those aren’t standards, then I don’t know what are.
@Imperious:
I’m sure that those guys, as well as Jermofoot and Frimmel, work, pay their bills, and take care of their progeny. At the very least they have a place to live, own a computer and a camera, and appear well fed. I can’t say whether or not they try to ditch jury duty or commit criminal acts, but there aren’t too many more adult responsibilities that are required of them.
where do you get the idea that i’m commenting on Jermo and Frimmel ? Why even bring them up? I not even talking about jury duty or criminals. why even bring that up? Im just talking about a set of behaviors that are usually in the realm of kids and adults and how some kinds of movies like the comic book adaptations are a lower form of art usually for the former and not the latter.
Well if you aren’t talking about Jermofoot and Frimmel, then do me a favor and clarify these statements:
Its just an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities. Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.
The second sentence suggests that you think comics, or more to the point, adults who read comics and watch comics based movies are using them as an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities in addition to having mush for brains as you suggested earlier. And since Jermofoot and Frimmel are both adults who read comics and watch comic based movies, I made the connection.
Come on, now. Either you have trouble making the most basic logical inferrences or you’re just playing games here. I said that I can’t tell whether or not those guys in the video were avoiding the pretty common “adult responsibilities” of not being a criminal and not ditching jury duty but, it looked to me that most of their adult responsibilities were being met.
@Imperious:
i said:
Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.
I disagree. I have seen many comics that deal with adult issues. Some even created with a specific adult issue in mind. The format by which a message is delivered is irrelevant as long as the message is successfully delivered.
Find then proof that the comic book movies deliver this message more appropriately and effective than what you would find in a serious movie say like “Their will be blood” I think all the gimmickry and action will get in the way and the message will be very deluded. Basically if you got a movie about the ravages of Cancer for a family, your gonna be less effective if you got the Hulk as the father with Cancer, then with Tom Hanks in Philadelphia. The message as you say is not possibly delivered with the kind of sentimentality and force as some stupid dude that turns green when he gets mad.
sorry but it don’t work that way.
I don’t have to find proof that comic book movies deliver the message. You said “comics should be for kids” not “comic book movies should be for kids”. I said comics deal with adult issues and I’m right, but there really is no point in me giving you proof because you don’t read comics.
But, just so you don’t have to turn your brain to mush by reading the Watchmen or watching the movie, I’ll tell you of a couple issues that it deals with. First, it lets you decide whether vigilantism is acceptable and then the main one is: Is telling the truth always the right thing to do, no matter how hard it is for people to swallow, or are there situations where keeping a secret is better for the common good?
And why would I use the Hulk as my main reference? The only message the Hulk delivers is that brute force can sometimes be just as detructive as the problem you are trying to solve with it. It might be surprising to learn that there are quite a few more comics than just the Hulk and Watchmen.
Plus, I think Tom Hanks was a gay man with AIDS fighting for his civil rights in “Philadelphia”, not a father with cancer. I didn’t see it.
@Imperious:
A robot, half man-half animal, and “living” scarecrow? Even without the flying monkeys it sounds like comic book garbage, doesn’t it? Except that particular movie won an academy award and was even nominated for “best picture” but lost to Gone With the Wind. Pretty distinguished company for a movie that , in your words, takes the real world and tries to fit the most audacious unbelievable situations that only a child can enjoy… a 40 year old child living at home with momma.
thats not a comic book movie, so your point is? Also, i didn’t win the award so that kinda proved my point. Remember the movie was Dorothy’s dream and at the end she wakes up. If your telling me that watchmen is some kind of dream sequence, then im looking for planes, my name is Tatu and i’m living on fantasy island.
I didn’t say it was a comic book movie. I said it sounds like a comic book. The types of characters(robots, man-beasts, etc…), the story, flying monkeys. All of which would easily find a home in comic books.
And just because it didn’t win best picture, doesn’t prove your point at all. If you think that the only movies worth watching are the ones that won best picture then you are missing out on a lot of quality viewing.
I am only talking about: c-o-m-i-c b-o-o-k-s m-a-d-e i-n-t-o- m-o-v-i-e-s
You have been talking at length about how comics(not just comic based movies) are strictly for kids, they have no message, and how much disdain you have for adults who, according to you,are lower class because they choose to turn their brains to mush by reading and watching them. So, no, you have not ONLY been talking about comic book movies. You’re hating for no reason.
Remember the movie was Dorothy’s dream and at the end she wakes up. If your telling me that watchmen is some kind of dream sequence, then im looking for planes, my name is Tatu and i’m living on fantasy island.
besides its a musical and everything is deliberately in a fairytale land.
The reason I brought up The Wizard of Oz is not only because of it’s resemblance to comic book stories and whatnot, but it’s also because it’s messages don’t punch you in the face like in other movies. They are layered beneath the surface. The Hulk is a poor example of a comic book movie with an underlying message while, conversely, Watchmen is a good example of a comic book movie with an underlying message.
Now, I’m not saying that the Hulk movie or even the Watchmen movie will come close to the quality of The Wizard of Oz, but what I am saying is that as long as you continue to refuse to take comic books and their derivative movies at anything more than face value then if there are any messages beneath the surface, you will never see them.
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Quote from: Imperious Leader on March 04, 2009, 05:23:18 pm
Quote
Yes, but, how many of them care to judge themselves by your standards? Who says that your standards are the yardstick by which all people should be measured?Clearly, those people enjoy what they are doing enough to go out of their way to post it on YouTube so I doubt that they would consider it throwing away their lives.
And you are taking an extreme example of comic book lovers and making them the archetype. By contrast, I can say that Hitler didn’t read comic books and look how he turned out.
Dude: nobody is making any of the claims you mention. I am just making my opinion and i am not even commenting on anybody in here in terms of standards of taste. I have seen these people in their feeding frenzy before. You cant make blanket statements and claim everybody fits the mold, but easily many of them do. For example you don’t find many lawyers playing with Tonka toys, but you do find that many of the older types still living at home DO get into comics and the kinds of things that are not really very mature, but interests that you may find a 14 year old having. Perhaps most of the the people who do buy and read comics are doctors and CEO’s but i don’t think they are. I think they fall in the lower classes.
You just did judge them based on your own set of standards. By asking how many of them were doctors, lawyers, and self-made, you made it clear that if they didn’t aspire to or become one of those or a similar profession, that they were, by your standards and your words, “lower class”.
Talking about the plurality of these types that love the comics. In every group you have a ratio of good and bad, but if you inventory the entire population you will find 50%+ of these types as i have described… IMO.
And my suggestion was that maybe they didn’t feel the need to classify themselves in your terms. They appear to be happy doing what they are doing whether you or anybody else likes it or not and so I doubted that they would consider what they are doing to be, according to you, throwing away their lives.
I am not commenting on their behavior, but rather clarifying my own point of view for others who asked. Now you have my opinion….move on.
If those aren’t standards, then I don’t know what are.
not working sorry.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on March 04, 2009, 05:23:18 pm
Quote
I’m sure that those guys, as well as Jermofoot and Frimmel, work, pay their bills, and take care of their progeny. At the very least they have a place to live, own a computer and a camera, and appear well fed. I can’t say whether or not they try to ditch jury duty or commit criminal acts, but there aren’t too many more adult responsibilities that are required of them.where do you get the idea that i’m commenting on Jermo and Frimmel ? Why even bring them up? I not even talking about jury duty or criminals. why even bring that up? Im just talking about a set of behaviors that are usually in the realm of kids and adults and how some kinds of movies like the comic book adaptations are a lower form of art usually for the former and not the latter.
Well if you aren’t talking about Jermofoot and Frimmel, then do me a favor and clarify these statements:
Quote
Its just an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities. Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.The second sentence suggests that you think comics, or more to the point, adults who read comics and watch comics based movies are using them as an excuse to remain a kid and not confront adult responsibilities in addition to having mush for brains as you suggested earlier. And since Jermofoot and Frimmel are both adults who read comics and watch comic based movies, I made the connection.
Sorry you made the connection, but your mistaken. I don’t think in black or white ( e.g. I would never say 100% of everybody who likes comics is a dork), I am looking at things in general as a distillery of behaviors of the types i have described. General terms. I comment on the whole process of what these movies do for society in general and the behaviors i have experienced with most of these types. I think thats pretty clear.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on March 04, 2009, 05:23:18 pm
i said:
Quote
Comics should be for kids because by and large they deal with kid type of issues.Quote
I disagree. I have seen many comics that deal with adult issues. Some even created with a specific adult issue in mind. The format by which a message is delivered is irrelevant as long as the message is successfully delivered.Find then proof that the comic book movies deliver this message more appropriately and effective than what you would find in a serious movie say like “Their will be blood” I think all the gimmickry and action will get in the way and the message will be very deluded. Basically if you got a movie about the ravages of Cancer for a family, your gonna be less effective if you got the Hulk as the father with Cancer, then with Tom Hanks in Philadelphia. The message as you say is not possibly delivered with the kind of sentimentality and force as some stupid dude that turns green when he gets mad.
sorry but it don’t work that way.
Then we have to just disagree.
I don’t have to find proof that comic book movies deliver the message. You said “comics should be for kids” not “comic book movies should be for kids”. I said comics deal with adult issues and I’m right, but there really is no point in me giving you proof because you don’t read comics.
but i did read comics… when i was a kid like 10. now things are different. So the point is?
But, just so you don’t have to turn your brain to mush by reading the Watchmen or watching the movie, I’ll tell you of a couple issues that it deals with. First, it lets you decide whether vigilantism is acceptable and then the main one is: Is telling the truth always the right thing to do, no matter how hard it is for people to swallow, or are there situations where keeping a secret is better for the common good?
Well thats certainly something my mon told me to do when i was 6 years old. Lesson learned already. Thanks
And why would I use the Hulk as my main reference? The only message the Hulk delivers is that brute force can sometimes be just as detructive as the problem you are trying to solve with it. It might be surprising to learn that there are quite a few more comics than just the Hulk and Watchmen.
I can use any reference that is a comic book material. The question is why not use the Hulk? Its choice stuck in my mind because it was so ridiculous like Transformers and that other winner Rocketman.
Plus, I think Tom Hanks was a gay man with AIDS fighting for his civil rights in “Philadelphia”, not a father with cancer. I didn’t see it.
OK then substitute the analogy with the word: “aids” in both examples to help you understand the point.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on March 04, 2009, 05:47:20 pm
Quote
A robot, half man-half animal, and “living” scarecrow? Even without the flying monkeys it sounds like comic book garbage, doesn’t it? Except that particular movie won an academy award and was even nominated for “best picture” but lost to Gone With the Wind. Pretty distinguished company for a movie that , in your words, takes the real world and tries to fit the most audacious unbelievable situations that only a child can enjoy… a 40 year old child living at home with momma.thats not a comic book movie, so your point is? Also, i didn’t win the award so that kinda proved my point. Remember the movie was Dorothy’s dream and at the end she wakes up. If your telling me that watchmen is some kind of dream sequence, then im looking for planes, my name is Tatu and i’m living on fantasy island.
I didn’t say it was a comic book movie. I said it sounds like a comic book. The types of characters(robots, man-beasts, etc…), the story, flying monkeys. All of which would easily find a home in comic books.
Yes but i did i started my point of view by blasting these and only these types of movies. If you want my opinion on Musicals that are based on a dream make another thread.
And just because it didn’t win best picture, doesn’t prove your point at all. If you think that the only movies worth watching are the ones that won best picture then you are missing out on a lot of quality viewing.
It proved the point that of the total inventory of these movies the % of them that win academy awards for high art in film is extremely low as compared to serious movies for adults with normal stories going on.
Quote
I am only talking about: c-o-m-i-c b-o-o-k-s m-a-d-e i-n-t-o- m-o-v-i-e-sYou have been talking at length about how comics(not just comic based movies) are strictly for kids, they have no message, and how much disdain you have for adults who, according to you,are lower class because they choose to turn their brains to mush by reading and watching them. So, no, you have not ONLY been talking about comic book movies. You’re hating for no reason.
I feel sorry for them, hate is your added value word you wish to bring here. Again im just having my opinion.
Quote
Remember the movie was Dorothy’s dream and at the end she wakes up. If your telling me that watchmen is some kind of dream sequence, then im looking for planes, my name is Tatu and i’m living on fantasy island.Quote
besides its a musical and everything is deliberately in a fairytale land.The reason I brought up The Wizard of Oz is not only because of it’s resemblance to comic book stories and whatnot, but it’s also because it’s messages don’t punch you in the face like in other movies. They are layered beneath the surface. The Hulk is a poor example of a comic book movie with an underlying message while, conversely, Watchmen is a good example of a comic book movie with an underlying message.
Thats fine. If you say the Hulk is not a comic book movie or a weak one thats your opinion. I don’t care really about the hulk.
Now, I’m not saying that the Hulk movie or even the Watchmen movie will come close to the quality of The Wizard of Oz, but what I am saying is that as long as you continue to refuse to take comic books and their derivative movies at anything more than face value then if there are any messages beneath the surface, you will never see them.
The message in OZ is a much more powerful message and done with high level art. Its not a special effects driven movie, even though it has it. IN most of the comic book movies its all about some explosions and stuff about somebody beating up or destroying another being. Its a plot device in all comic book movies to keep kids entertained while they eat at Taco Bell latter and drink and eat unhealthy food, which is the ancillary effect that these movies have in society… the total gluttony of mind and body.
But thats my opinion and don’t fight it just move on .
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We gamers and comic book readers around here appreciate your generalizations, we really do. Broad strokes and narrow minds. I mean my D&D group contains 2 union pipefitters, an engineer, 2 teachers and a principal. So trapped in our own fantasy worlds we can’t raise families of our own or hold down jobs. In my younger days I worked for him a few days a week and ya, he had two lawyers who were subscribers. He has a few customers who still smoke pot and live at home too but that’s society as a whole. You’re drawing from what experience? I knew a man who was a gun nut, loved nothing more than historical wars but spent all of his time painting miniature tanks and replica models of zeroes. He went to civil war reenactments and cooked in a restaurant. He lived at home, too.
Watchmen was the only graphic novel to appear on Time’s 2005 list of “the 100 best English-language novels from 1923 to the present”. Go ahead, toss it under that blanket, you’ll miss out on a fantasy world that raises so many “real-world” questions you’re so fond of. Well enjoy the story’s complexity and grittiness. So you classify this in with your stupid, angry, green men and some of the institutions that help YOU define taste will tell us what we already know, it’s a good piece of literature, illustrated or not.
As for the movie itself guys & gals, I saw it and it’s fiercely loyal but just fails to hit that same peak the novel did. Rorschach is one of my favorite characters of all time.
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In every population where a generalization is made some (but fewer than 50%) will not fall in the behavior pattern as i have outlined. Its like saying most Americans speak English, knowing fully well that some of them cant even say hello in English.
Its also obvious to me that their is absolutely no reason to feel defensive about my opinion, unless you feel some truth to it on your own because in my experience when that happens it could mean that the value of this opinion is making some resonance. If it was false i suspect nobody would care to even discuss it. But i have to answer so many questions that i wonder.
This entire discussion was to me entirely unnecessary, because I only made two main points:
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The artistic value of these ‘comic book movies’ cannot conceive to produce anything but low level entertainment… the entertainment of popular culture which in this age is entirely commercialized to the point where its only sustaining public satiation for gluttony and not having much value in terms of sustaining more profound meaning and message.
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Most of the people who like these movies are kids and young people, and the shear propensity of these movies in the last 10 years can modify behavior in people, because frankly movies DO influence people for better or worse. Most of these movies involve stories that involve somebody committing violence and lots of action and special effects. I just have the opinion that movies of this type cant possibly produce the types of feelings and emotions that can be evoked by a serious movie…“Lawrence of Arabia” the “English Patient”, because they are so contrived and contain so many situations that rely on action plot devices to keep kids and 40 year old adults who act like kids entertained.
Also, the types of behaviors can vary, but it seems to be at least that the contrived nature of the stories (e.g. the fantasy aspect) promotes in young adults ( and some cases 40 olds living at home) some kind of behaviors that do not tend to lead to overall success in life.
Now if we were talking about an animated movie, Im also quite sure that as a population that the majority of these movies are also for kids, but some of them contain adult themes, but again as with comic book movies the level of message possible and the craft of movie making ( outside the craft of animation) does not do too well.
If we were talking about movies that have talking dogs, Im sure someone could say:
“hey i love Beverly Hills Chihuahua!
Its dealing with the most profound issues of the day and and how dare you have an opinion where you say that DOG movies cant convey the most incredible sentiments possible… and BTW i am a Doctor and have a Beverly Hills Chihuahua bumper sticker on the back of my S600 Mercedes Benz.”Somehow i think this is less common in the total population of people who love DOG movies. What is more common in adults who really love DOG movies would be basically not very successful people.
But then again success can be argued as bad or good depending on who has the opinion.
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@Imperious:
I boycott all movies that have to resort to using ideas from comic books for a plot.
Its so ridiculous to me to even have movies like this unless your like 8 years old. I used to watch Ultraman and Giant Robot and Gigantor but i don’t need to have some bloke waste 200 million and make some ubermodern interpretation of a childish idea. Its like going to Dave and Busters ( Chuck E Cheese for adults) and acting like an idiot winning those stupid yellow tickets so i can buy more Chinese finger pulls. I might as well start wearing a bib and go ga ga.
This fails on so many levels. To be a snob is one thing. To be a snob in the capacity of a forum moderator for a gaming website devoted to a game that perhaps 1% of the population has heard of is pathetically hilarious.
The head of my gaming group is a GS15 engineer working at Edward’s who has about 20 grand in comics. You want to see unemployed fat guys who are wasting their lives? Ever host an A&A party? :lol: Or been a member of a hardcore raiding guild in EQ or WOW? Or been to an MTG tournament?
I personally can’t stand comics and Watchmen sucked (saw it last night). But hey, to each his own, right? Who am I to judge? One man’s “Watchmen” is another man’s
“The Professional” (which was equally ridiculous, but didn’t suck). -
The head of my gaming group is a GS15 engineer working at Edward’s who has about 20 grand in comics. You want to see unemployed fat guys who are wasting their lives? Ever host an A&A party? cheesy Or been a member of a hardcore raiding guild in EQ or WOW? Or been to an MTG tournament?
As stated like the 50 times before, in every population you have some who are well off, but you have not made any point other than you “know somebody who buys comic books and latter sells them for profit” I am not talking about people who collect junk and sell it back when its considered nostalgic. I do play in Tournaments and play tournament Chess, Poker and AA and other games. I don’t play Magic: the marketing tool for artificially collectible pieces of paper and that have artificially created inventories making them “collectible” I did something like this when i was a kid having Garbage Pail kids cards and the wacky something back in the mid 70’s. After that i realized it was stupid to dwell on such things.
I personally can’t stand comics and Watchmen sucked (saw it last night). But hey, to each his own, right? Who am I to judge? One man’s “Watchmen” is another man’s
“The Professional” (which was equally ridiculous, but didn’t suck).How is the hell is it a problem for you for others to have their own opinion? Anybody can “judge” just like you have. Thats the whole point of a forum. I suppose its also an opinion that you too may judge my opinion, but you have not really raised any new points.
To be a snob in the capacity of a forum moderator for a gaming website devoted to a game that perhaps 1% of the population has heard of is pathetically hilarious.
Well is we want to philosophize the value of gaming in society, i have other views on this, but to bring it up to support some parallel value that because we play these games, that watching and enjoying comic book movies to the point where the person is totally immersed in comics at the ripe age of 40…is a real stretch.
Poker and Chess ( e.g. games) can be professions by some accounts, while watching comic book movies and loathing in filth and focusing the notion of happiness on this are not the same; thus your argument falters.
playing Magic does have some money making potential ( they do pay cash prizes) , but its a transitory activity . In 40 years they will still have Poker and Chess while Magic will go back to a dark corner.
Magic is just like POGS. Both are scams for companies to make a buck and siphon off kids discretionary income. Eventually the stuff for these games will get dumped in the trash can like old clothes.
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Dragonball
Spiderman
Batman
Hellboy
Superman
Transformers
Punisher
Cpt. America
X-menNow then looking at this list can anybody honestly say that affluent, successful people are MORE inclined to enjoy these movies and that these movies are MORE inclined to produce a better type of movie on the basis of evoking thought provoking stories that are heartfelt, pertinent, sentimental? Do they exude the kind of high art form of movies warranting them with all the accolades you would find in other movies?
If we were to substitute comic book movies with cartoons and make a new list, would it make any difference?
How bout movies with live action and animation ( e.g. roger rabbit)
How bout movies where they got little kids that speak, but the voice is a dub over from a famous actor?
For me they are all in the same boat. A sinking boat unless your a kid. In every case they are not capable of offering anything but the kind of entertainment that exists that offers no substance to the movie art form aside from some technical achievements. Thats also why they seldom win many awards in terms of the total inventory of these kinds of movies.
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@Imperious:
ok Jermo. Thats fine we just have to disagree thats all. Its no big deal to me, But i felt perhaps my post needed elaboration so i posted a different version of my sentiment.
Apparently it’s a big enough deal for you take time and rant about all sorts of stuff that doesn’t concern the topic at all.
You have your opinion and that’s fine. But if you want to make holier-than-thou claims about things you simply don’t like, then it’s…well, childish.
If you have a pet peeve with things you perceive as puerile, unsuccessful, greedy, etc., then you probably have a reason for it. But you bring these things up offtopic, all the while making jabs at people that are your peers on here. Which tells me that you have enough free time and big enough chip on your shoulder to make the forums you moderate a soapbox to propagate your utopian views.
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I saw the movie today. Not bad at all…I was entertained. There are obviously omissions, and some changes (particularly at the end), but I was thinking about it and there is no way they could have kept the continuity intact without doing what they did. Unless you were willing to sit through a 6 hour movie…it already clocks in at nearly 3.
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But if you want to make holier-than-thou claims about things you simply don’t like, then it’s…well, childish.
Apparently it’s a big enough deal for you take time and rant…blah blah
I did no such thing. I only respond to people who asked for clarifications. When somebody posts to me directly i will always return the favor. It is you that is ranting because you simply cant leave it alone. For me it would be just fine if you just left it alone and had your thread about how awesome the movie was.
If i was taking an opinion of yours and telling you it was stupid, you would very well post something back and you know it.
your utopian views.
I’m against Utopia. Add that to your list of things i hate.
Lastly, why is it so hard to just agree to disagree? Its not that hard to have a difference in opinion is it?
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Its also obvious to me that their is absolutely no reason to feel defensive about my opinion, unless you feel some truth to it on your own because in my experience when that happens it could mean that the value of this opinion is making some resonance. If it was false i suspect nobody would care to even discuss it. But i have to answer so many questions that i wonder.
Just like the mighty resonance the world takes toward bigots, fundamentalists, racists, and sexists just further validates the truth in their statements? LOL. They all make the same mistake of over-generalizing. I’m telling you I worked at a comic book store that had over 200 subscribers between three locations and of those I met, which was over 80%, I would certainly not say the plurality of them still lived with parents, as you did. I mean, all you did was throw this general blanket on the group and it isn’t backed up by any factual information of any sort. My sample is small at 200, but from all the drivel and dregs you feel that are associated with the industry, I’m fairly confident my sample is close to 200 people larger.
If i was taking an opinion of yours and telling you it was stupid, you would very well post something back and you know it.
Kind of like when you tell people comic books are for children, right? You’re just defending your position against my
- The artistic value of these ‘comic book movies’ cannot conceive to produce anything but low level entertainment… the entertainment of popular culture which in this age is entirely commercialized to the point where its only sustaining public satiation for gluttony and not having much value in terms of sustaining more profound meaning and message.
I’m assuming you mean “for myself” at the end of that ellipsis there. I mean obviously the opinion of “good” and “bad” art is just that essentially. Don’t even get me started on art as a whole, talking about it is like dancing about architecture. In any case, “meaning and message” is obviously profoundly different from person to person. Doing more than discussing these things is akin to a “smash your fingers with a hammer” competition. No one’s going to win.
- Most of the people who like these movies are kids and young people, and the shear propensity of these movies in the last 10 years can modify behavior in people, because frankly movies DO influence people for better or worse. Most of these movies involve stories that involve somebody committing violence and lots of action and special effects. I just have the opinion that movies of this type cant possibly produce the types of feelings and emotions that can be evoked by a serious movie…“Lawrence of Arabia” the “English Patient”, because they are so contrived and contain so many situations that rely on action plot devices to keep kids and 40 year old adults who act like kids entertained.
This, however, IS a point we can debate a little bit. This movie is not intended for kids, as it’s rated R. The novel was rated R. Watchmen, the novel, invoked many thought-provoking emotions inside of me. It’s dark, gritty, and forces you to take a look at the human race as a savage species. Its characters are complex and flawed, and the “superheroes” you get to watch clearly are not that. Again, Time voted it one of the best 100 novels written in English in the past 83 years. And it had the disadvantage of being sullied by illustrations :roll:. There’s a reason for that.
“shear propensity” What does that even mean? I mean I’ve laid off the poor vocab use for most of your responses because it’s really childish but I’m truly lost here. It’s just jabbed in the middle of a run-on and you’re trying to say something about comics which I just can’t figure out. I mean The tendency these movies have to cut has modified the behavior of people over the past 10 years? shrug
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Ok, now back to the overall thesis that you’ve turned the thread into. While you believe that it’s comics and fantasy that have the propensity (check it out, proper usage!) to turn an otherwise normal child toward a life of failure. Of which, I’d say success and failure is also subjective and only applicable on a personal level and thusly renders the discussion moot entirely. What if the goal of the slothful comic-book reader is to spend as much time as possible in the depths of his imagination? It would fail to define success for you, but not for him. Still, I digress.
I’d point toward the general nature of the human race as the proper medium for your anger at sloth as it relates to not leaving your parents’ basement. The Roman Empire probably barely saw comic 1, and in the end their citizens were among the most slothful in recorded history. Why? It’s human nature when you’re on top to get greedy and lazy. When people are handed things in life (a comic could apply just as much as a pack of baseball cards, a video game, or a World War II board game when talking about hobbies) early in life, their disposition toward working for things is likely to lower. I’m no geneticist, but I’d be willing to wager genes have more of a role to play in this than anything you’re talking about.
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I saw the movie today. Not bad at all…I was entertained. There are obviously omissions, and some changes (particularly at the end), but I was thinking about it and there is no way they could have kept the continuity intact without doing what they did. Unless you were willing to sit through a 6 hour movie…it already clocks in at nearly 3.
SPOILERS!!!
I went last night. I too found it very entertaining. The end is very different and I’m still not sure how I feel about it.
I hated ‘old Sally.’ She barely looked old enough to be Laurie’s big sister and I REALLY didn’t like the gold digger/ trophy wife sort of thing they had going on. She wasn’t old and haggard and brass and bitter enough.
I really didn’t like how they shortened up the stuff with Rorshach and the psychiatrist. They didn’t tell how he got the mask and rushed right to how he became Rorshach as opposed to explaining at first he was Kovacs in a mask. But ditching a lot of the exposition around the Keene Act kind of required it I think. Also that chapter of the novel is my favorite part so I’m a bit biased. Haley though as Kovacs/Rorshach was excellent.
However it is certainly for the greater part a faithful adaptation and they put a lot of stuff in. It also stands on its own and does not require any particular knowledge of the comic. It moves pretty fast though so pay attention. However my girlfriend who had not read the comics had no trouble following along. She did have a sense that there was stuff left out.
Recommended for all who’ve read the comic but have some tolerance for cinematic liberties. If you haven’t read it but caught a preview and thought it looked interesting you will likely find it was worth your time.
All viewers are advised the R rating is earned with full male nudity, female nudity, R version explicit sex, bloody violence and interesting ethical questions but not really all that much swearing.
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@Imperious:
I did no such thing. I only respond to people who asked for clarifications. When somebody posts to me directly i will always return the favor. It is you that is ranting because you simply cant leave it alone. For me it would be just fine if you just left it alone and had your thread about how awesome the movie was.
If i was taking an opinion of yours and telling you it was stupid, you would very well post something back and you know it.
I see that you respond to posts directed at you and that’s good.
I am not ranting. I am also not the one that came into a thread with nothing to contribute and make ridiculous, tangential claims one after another.
I’m against Utopia. Add that to your list of things i hate.
Lastly, why is it so hard to just agree to disagree? Its not that hard to have a difference in opinion is it?
Ok, you are against…so why come in here and pretend like it should exist?
We obviously disagree. That’s not the point at all. It’s the fact that you’ve made an effort to avoid the subject of the topic yet insult a wide group of people including many posters here. Maybe not directly, but your statements obviously apply.
I mean really…why go to all this trouble? Were you raped as a comic book as a kid or something? :lol:
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I went last night. I too found it very entertaining. The end is very different and I’m still not sure how I feel about it.
I thought about it…people might find the original ending too campy. Or they may have had to add backstory or continuity that would have extended the movie even longer. Or it was “updated” to relate more to the current world (not sure how, but just maybe).
I hated ‘old Sally.’ She barely looked old enough to be Laurie’s big sister and I REALLY didn’t like the gold digger/ trophy wife sort of thing they had going on. She wasn’t old and haggard and brass and bitter enough.
Yeah, the two actresses are only a few years apart. :lol: I was looking at the actors in the film and wondered how they would pull that off. One of them was supposed to be in her 60s and the other a teenager at different parts of the movie. But I didn’t see her as a trophy wife or bitter. I thought she was more melancholy in her old age than anything in the comic.
I really didn’t like how they shortened up the stuff with Rorshach and the psychiatrist. They didn’t tell how he got the mask and rushed right to how he became Rorshach as opposed to explaining at first he was Kovacs in a mask. But ditching a lot of the exposition around the Keene Act kind of required it I think. Also that chapter of the novel is my favorite part so I’m a bit biased. Haley though as Kovacs/Rorshach was excellent.
Yeah, I agree. The gravity of Rorschach was supposed to be relayed through the psychiatrist, and it was shortened too much. I was a little more disappointed in the fact that they changed how Rorschach handled the child kidnapper/murderer. It was as if they decided to dis the story and go for the gore.
However it is certainly for the greater part a faithful adaptation and they put a lot of stuff in. It also stands on its own and does not require any particular knowledge of the comic. It moves pretty fast though so pay attention. However my girlfriend who had not read the comics had no trouble following along. She did have a sense that there was stuff left out.
I wondered what it would have to be to be “perfect.” If it was a direct adaptation, it would be far too long to be a movie. It would also be nearly the exact same thing as have reading the book. So do we take an approach to movie adaptation like we do with cover songs? Is it better to make a faithful carbon copy of the original, or is it better to put some creativity and interpretation on the original story? I can’t really say…but it does stand on its own.
Recommended for all who’ve read the comic but have some tolerance for cinematic liberties. If you haven’t read it but caught a preview and thought it looked interesting you will likely find it was worth your time.
I would also recommend the motion comic. It clocks in around 6 hours, but it’s nearly identical to the book.
Oh, and one thing I particularly liked was the vignette at the beginning showing different scenes from the book. That was pretty cool.
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