2 Turn Ship Construction

[wodan46]

@Imperious:

the attackers win 46.125%, but reversed the difference is 71.517% for the BB
That is because Carrier Groups are weak on offense

That makes the choice poorer to buy also.

That is because Carrier Groups have the best ground attack capacities.

@Imperious:

but in combat thats all that is concerned, and it proves one is inferior to the other. Nothing else matters except the results of combat.

Which is that Subs win?

Take 180 Battleships versus 600 Subs (assumed that Destroyer is always present)
Round1: 180 Battleships (80 blocks left) vs. 480 Subs
Round2: 180 Battleships (0 blocks left) vs. 360 Subs
Round3: 120 Battleships vs. 240 Subs
Round4: 80 Battleships vs. 160 Subs
Round5: 60 Battleships vs. 107 Subs
Round6: 42 Battleships vs. 67 Subs
Round7: 31 Battleships vs. 39 Subs
Round8: 25 Battleships vs. 18 Subs
Round9: 22 Battleships vs. 2 Subs
Round10: 21 Battleships vs. 0 Subs
Net losses=3180 for Battleships, 3600 for Subs

In short, even when Battleships attack Subs that have been deprived of first strike, they still only barely win.  If the Subs DO have first strike or are attacking, it isn’t even a contest.

Also, you still haven’t acknowledged that Destroyers beat their weight in Battleships, even after I specifically showed a round by round battle between arbitrarily large numbers of them.

The sims show that the balance changes huge in favor of cruisers at 10, but 11 is close to 50% Thats what you want namely for all the units to be basically close on a cost value basis, and THEN have some unique ability that you use them for a specific function, ASW, Shore shot, etc…

10 Destroyers will still beat 8 Cruisers, which cost equal if Cruisers cost 10
10 Cost Cruisers beat 20 Cost Battleships, but that’s why you lower the cost of Battleships to 18.

And if that is unbalanced, that is what the 2 turn ship construction rule is for.

[Imperious Leader]

Quote
the attackers win 46.125%, but reversed the difference is 71.517% for the BB
That is because Carrier Groups are weak on offense

That makes the choice poorer to buy also.
That is because Carrier Groups have the best ground attack capacities.

Yes but poorer naval units…

Quote from: Imperious Leader on February 08, 2009, 09:22:05 pm
but in combat thats all that is concerned, and it proves one is inferior to the other. Nothing else matters except the results of combat.
Which is that Subs win?

Subs are only the best on attack, on defense they suck. The best all around for both is the BB according to the sims, but others could be built for their own reasons under most conditions the BB is the best by according to the sims.

In short, even when Battleships attack Subs that have been deprived of first strike, they still only barely win.  If the Subs DO have first strike or are attacking, it isn’t even a contest.

Also, you still haven’t acknowledged that Destroyers beat their weight in Battleships, even after I specifically showed a round by round battle between arbitrarily large numbers of them.

Its true that the DD beats the BB, But the BB beats the CA and the BB beats the CV with fighters, and in mixed battles with the BB on one side with CA and DD and the CV with fighters plus DD and CA the BB group wins.

Quote
The sims show that the balance changes huge in favor of cruisers at 10, but 11 is close to 50% Thats what you want namely for all the units to be basically close on a cost value basis, and THEN have some unique ability that you use them for a specific function, ASW, Shore shot, etc…
10 Destroyers will still beat 8 Cruisers, which cost equal if Cruisers cost 10
10 Cost Cruisers beat 20 Cost Battleships, but that’s why you lower the cost of Battleships to 18.

Yes cruisers at 10 bring it to 46%

If the CA at 10 and BB at 18 the BB wins  60.5%

If the CA at 11 and the BB at 20 the BB wins 57.7%

If you got CA at 10 and the BB at 19 the CA wins at  56.5%

I prefer CA at 11 rather than 10, because lowering both the CA and BB will upset the other naval.

And if that is unbalanced, that is what the 2 turn ship construction rule is for.

2 turn construction is not a viable solution for combat sim results. Thats makes no sence. If it did then the subs should take 2 turns to construct because they are better on attack.

If you want to give a discount on naval for wasting double the time to construct the unit, its not realistic and i don’t think it will do anything except mess up the game like it did when we had it in our AARHE rules for a few years and playing it messed up strategy because you would build something to cover a hole and it was too late to solve the problem or something else happened and you needed the funds for another crisis.

How would you like to wait 2 turns for Infantry?  Its the same problems only once your naval is gone its gone if your the axis. The 2 turn thing hurts the non-naval powers too much.

[tekkyy]

regarding costs
paying for overtime or express freight is to me below the level of abstraction
and may not make complete sense in war (total war)

[Jennifer]

The thing is Battleships are like Submarines.  You don’t want ONLY those units in your fleet.  However, if you have 3 battleships and your opponent has no battleships, you can strafe him all day long with the knowledge that three of his hits will not count and all of yours will.

I use this fact routinely in combats. (Probably why I have the title I do.)

For instance:

I want to attack you and I have 3 battleships you have none.

I can look at your fleet and say your 4 defending fighters and destroyer are nullified in round 1 and look at the punch I have vs the punch you have to determine my casualties.  Sure, you COULD get 5 hits, but you probably won’t, you’ll probably get 3 hits with all that.  But since you have no battleships, I know that I can count on 1 hit for every 6 punch my fleet does have.

More often than not, this will work out in my favor.

To compare Destroyers to Battleships (submarines have sneak shots, so not good comparison, also destroyers and battleships both defend and attack at the same values so it won’t matter what side you are on, technically) you might say in a battle to the death, the destroyers are the better deal.  But who says you are fighting to the death???

40 Battleships vs 100 Destroyers (800 IPC each)

First Round:
Attacker scores (probably) 27 Hits
Defender scores (probably) 33 Hits

Attacker has 33 Damaged Battleships, 7 Undamaged Battleships.  Defender has 73 Destroyers

Attacker retreats.

Cost to the Attacker = 0 IPC
Cost to the Defender = 216 IPC

If the defender then turns around to attack the battleships it’s:

Attacker: 24 Hits in Round 1
Defender: 27 Hits in Round 1

Defending Battleships STILL are not all damaged, but yet another third of the attacking destroyers have been eliminated.

And that, gentlemen, is the utility of the battleship.  You don’t necessarily use it to crush the enemy into artificial reefs, you use it to hit and run with the enemy to your advantage.

[wodan46]

Damnit, I keep forgetting that battles aren’t to the death anymore, and that units can retreat.  Such makes the Battleship vastly superior.

[Adlertag]

I am against 2-turn ships, and agree with IL in this case.

[murraymoto]

@wodan46:

After paying the cost the first time, place the ship on the land region.  It is automatically destroyed if the territory is captured.

If you are going to place the ship on the territory and allow it to be destroyed if the territory is captured you might want to go ahead and make the shipyards targetable by enemy bombers and either damage the ship further equal to the number on the die rolled or simply destroy the ship on a 1 or 2.

[murraymoto]

For comparing out abilities, putting 600 subs vs 120 BB or 200 Cruisers vs the BB or whatever may help to show the statistical differences, but you’ll never have 600 subs or 40 BB in a real game.  Usually you will have them in a combined fleet of ships or you would prefer them to be.  They are often alone though.

I was thinking of the beginning setup of AAE.  In the Gibraltar Strait you have a Destroyer, which for all intents and purposes has the stats of a Cruiser in AA50.  To take that I have often see merely a fighter and a sub take it on, and the sub being sacrificed.  Or the Italian fleet comes over and lands on Gibraltar at the same time, having the BB absorb any possible hits.
  But at the outset of AAR, there is a BB in that strait and often a larger force is brought to bear, that because 2 hits are needed so the goal is to get them on the 1st round rather than give the BB 2 shots.

So there is a larger difference in the mental impact of a BB vs other ships.  There is a thread in the AA50 section about how a Cruiser/Destroyer combo is always more useful and versatile than a BB for the same cost. 
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13648.0
Not advocating for/against on that, just pointing out the discussion at this point.  But in that you are talking ship combos, not all BB vs anything else.  For BB you get some additional mental agony for the opponent while you get some additional financial agony.