Conservative Germany

[allies_fly]

@Woodstock:

Currently I am in 2 games, both as the Axis without bid. (Note that this is Revised, but in AA:50 it might even be better, considering the no’s)

Revised and AA50 are not the same game.

It is pretty established that a heavy ground unit game plan for Germany is one of the better (if not preferred) German game plans in Revised.

[Woodstock]

@allies_fly:

@Woodstock:

Currently I am in 2 games, both as the Axis without bid. (Note that this is Revised, but in AA:50 it might even be better, considering the no’s)

Revised and AA50 are not the same game.

It is pretty established that a heavy ground unit game plan for Germany is one of the better (if not preferred) German game plans in Revised.

Funny thing is that in both games I Staarted with an AC buy, to secure the coast. So no heavy ground unit buy.
All I am saying is, if you can keep up with Germany and hold out till round 5, Japan should be pretty damn big, threatening USA and Russia at the same time. (UK should be no issue anymore with their 20 ipc)

[bigfoot]

I have only had the chance to play the game against opposition once and three times solitare.  I love this game.  Cmdr Jennifer has me convinced that an early try at Karelia is a valid strategy.  Unfortunately, my friend who plays the British as also read her posts. My friend plays very well when he is not surprised. So this is what I was going to try.

An Overwhelming attack on the Baltic, plus take East Poland and the Ukraine on turn 1.  Leaning heavily on the Italians I even transport an armor and an infantry from tghe med to the Ukraine. I hate watching my smug friend having a grand ol time in the Atlantic while Germany tries to defeat Russia before it is to late so that means  1 Bomber, 1 Fighter and a sub vs the British Battleship and transport. 1 sub and 1 F vs the destroyer in zone 6.  1 sub vs the Destroyer and transport off Canada.  If I am lucky I will get both transports, but I do expect to get at least the closest transport and the British Battleship.  I know this leaves the Italians in trouble, but I am counting on a U.S. obsessed with Japan, an overly cautious Britain and a defensive mind set in Russia.  Plus I my first build is a German Battleshiip and two infantry.

Now the RAF could go after the Italian fleet, but what about Germany’s fleet.  With no immenit threat of a Norway invasion, no transport, I move my infantry from Norway into Finland.  On turn two I can threaten Karelia with at least nine infantry, plus tanks and Fighters.  I am hoping that the German Baltic Fleet is intact.  Britain could attack my Battleship and Cruiser with two fighters and a Bomber and probably win at a heavy cost, but then the Italian Fleet would likely survive.  Off the three subs I had attacking in the Atlantic I expect one to survive.  I don’t expect my allid opponents to be comfortable letting one of my subs live.

If all goes as planned and the Baltic Fleet survives, then ON Turn 2 I should have 45 IPCs to spend.  I will spend 14 of them on a carrier and two of the Fighters attacking Karelia will land on it.  With Transport I can attack Karelia with 11 infantry, 4 tanks, 2 artillery, at least two fighters, probably 3 and a Bomber, plus bombard it with a cruiser and a Battleship.  That ought to take it.  Last game that meant goobye to 10 Russian infantry and an artillery piece.  With that accomplished I hope Britain will have something to scream about.  Unfortunately, the US could help them out and wreck my fleet.  But what I am  trying to do is to take Britain and the US out of their comfort zone and buy myself some time.

It seems to me that whatever the Germans do I can think of an allied counter eventually.  But until my friends get real comfortable at adapting to surprise, or Paul reads this, I will refrain from going all out for Egypt and Moscow starting with turn 1.  I don’t get a chance to play often and having the game decided on turn 1 doesn’t thrill me.  Of course it is worse to lose.  :-D

For Japan, I expect him to do whatever he has to, to stale mate the U.S. Fleet in the Pacific and spend the rest taking over China, Burma and India before launching an invasion of Russia.

[OleOneEye]

@bigfoot:

So this is what I was going to try.

If I may play devil’s advocate, this is how I would counter with the Allies:

Russia
With Germany only spending $11 on land units the opening round, 5 infantry and 3 tanks to gain the early manpower advantage.  Not attack anywhere, retreat from Karelia to Archangel, bulk up Caucasus, and leave 1 infantry in each border territory.

On round 2, if Germany takes Karelia en masse, I would attack Ukraine with the 10-ish infantry/artillery in Caucasus, heavily pressuring the German homelands while the tank force is in Karelia.  On the other hand, if Germany only takes Karelia with a token force on round 2, Russia would happily play a cat an mouse game on the eastern front trading territories because Germany does not have reinforcements any time soon and will grind its army out.

Britain
Buy a factory for Egypt, surface ships, and a couple extra infantry to prevent the German invasion of Britain.  If Britain kills the lone German transport with Egypt’s fighter, moves in the Trans-Jordan infantry, and places a factory, Africa should be pretty secure.  With Egypt in a strong position, Italy would be largely ignored at the start.  I would build a fleet out of range of Germany’s Baltic fleet until round 3-4 or so when the British fleet roughly equals the Germany’s combined Baltic fleet/Luftwaffe attack - moving in for the kill at that point.

USA
Spend everything against Japan.  Russia should have the manpower to hold out for some time on the eastern front.

[Jennifer]

Okay, I have now done a conservative German opening enough times to say the following:

Conservative German play is akin to ripping the testicles off your husband and wondering why he can’t get you pregnant anymore.

[atarihuana]

due to that analogy, i’d be a killer strat. ppl get killed before born ;)

[Jennifer]

@atarihuana:

due to that analogy, i’d be a killer strat. ppl get killed before born ;)

Unfortunately they would be the people on YOUR side. hehe.  The enemy would still be pumping out babies like that woman who just gave birth to octuplets.  (She is a personal hero to me. :)  )

[Heavy Deed]

OOE says:

USA
Spend everything against Japan.  Russia should have the manpower to hold out for some time on the eastern front.

absolutely and this goes for any scenario really. Japan cannot be allowed to just run rampant in this edition without being threatened somehow and that threat needs to come from the US. To the point though,a conservative Germany in the first couple of rounds isnt a bad idea either. As a matter of fact it, I have done it and it worked out great. The Axis won that game resoundingly in a massive showdown between Germany and Russia…but thats another story.  :roll:

[Jennifer]

I agree that Japan cannot be ignored.

A good mix of Russians, Britains and Chinamen can really slow down Japan’s progress.

Italy also cannot just be “ignored” without dangerous repercussions.

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

Okay, I have now done a conservative German opening enough times to say the following:

Conservative German play is akin to ripping the testicles off your husband and wondering why he can’t get you pregnant anymore.

Yep.  Jen has declared it’s a dumb move.

End of discussion

lock this thread, there’s no further need to discuss.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[atarihuana]

thats a dumb statement…

[tin_snips]

i’ve been going for the all-infantry buy on G1, just so i can get some infantry up to the front lines to take the losses instead of tanks, and also bolster my shore defences early. worked a treat the last 2 times i tried it

[Jennifer]

I agree, you need almost exclusively infantry buys with Germany to push into Russia.  By “conservative” or “defensive” it is implied you do not take any risks, you only make a few attacks, you hang back and turtle your country bolstering defenses in France, NW Europe, Poland and Bulgaria.

The alternative (the plan that works) is an all out frontal assault on Russia and grinding them into the dirt under the jack-boot of German infantry at a pace suitable to let Japan take Moscow about the time the allies have a serious ability to invade France (serious as in with more than one survivor.)

Honestly, the Axis has 5 rounds to secure the game.  After that, the allies will be recovered and in position. (Does not mean you will lose if you do not have domination of the board or control of Moscow, so please don’t assume that’s my position.)

As for Axis, well, I guess he’s a bit shell-shocked, he’s lost so many arguments to me in the past he does not even post a realistic response, only a personal attack on me.  I’m a girl, I’m used to men treating me like property and a nobody without a braincell to my name.  It’s okay.  Male chauvinism is alive and well. :)

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

I agree, you need almost exclusively infantry buys with Germany to push into Russia.  By “conservative” or “defensive” it is implied you do not take any risks, you only make a few attacks, you hang back and turtle your country bolstering defenses in France, NW Europe, Poland and Bulgaria.

I think this is a key phase and perhaps where the dispute is.  I don’t think a conservative buy necessarily would equal conservative play.
Germany starts with plenty of air and tanks to maintain a solid offense against Russia so Gemany can afford to go 9 inf, 1 rt (or 7 inf, 2 arm, 7 inf, 1 ftr, etc) then on G2 (with 45 ipc), you can go 1 bom, 8 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm (or 2 ftrs + inf, etc).  Kar either falls on G2 or G3 without much of a fight, why risk ftrs on G1 when you can get it for only a couple of inf and assuming you want to buy another ftr/or bom you probably won’t need the 12 spots for production yet.  That is why I kind of like to maximize on G1 with 10 units, then another 10 units on G2.  After that it is either 12 cause you own Kar or 13 b/c you maybe drop an IC on Pol b/c you can afford 10 inf + IC.

I guess you can consider it a German IPM.  Russia has too much to defend and not enough offense early, so larger G inf stacks is often enough to force the Russians back.

[Jennifer]

Exactly, but I would maybe go so far as 100% infantry for two rounds before adding fighters and armor.  The later additions of fighters, bombers and armor are to hold France/Germany from Allied assault so that the rest can push into Russia.

But what i see touted much of the time is that Germany has to be very conservative.  Reinforce France and set up a wall on the Eastern Front and that’s just going to end up getting you killed.  As I said, it’s like ripping off your husband’s testicles and wondering why he’s impotent.  You just plain cannot win most games with a turtling Germany from the first round.  You absolutely must (to win most games) go beserk on Russia kicking them in the teeth, groin and knees as fast and as hard as you can in the first two rounds and then think about protecting France and Germany from Allied attacks.

Basically, if you do not kill off 7 to 12 infantry (+artillery) in round 1 and at least 5-10 more in round 2 in Russia you’re asking for the allies to take the initiative and win the game.  That’s of course the damage GERMANY inflicts, it does not count additional damage inflicted by Italy (who should be inflicting on England, but if Germany is turtled up might be forced to attack Russia just out of sheer need to persevere) and Japan (who again, at this time, is attacking China!)

There are ways the allies can still hand you the game, though.

1)  Russia can invade Manchuria with 7 Infantry.  This is a gift of 21 IPC to Japan.
2)  England or America can land something in Russian territories (again, a gift to the Axis of -5 IPC to Russia!)
3)  America can ignore Japan completely allowing them to get up to 70-90 IPC in which case, you don’t need Germany anymore!
4)  The allies can ignore Africa resulting in Italy earning 20-30 IPC in which case, Italy can save Germany from itself.

[wodan46]

@Cmdr:

But what i see touted much of the time is that Germany has to be very conservative.  Reinforce France and set up a wall on the Eastern Front and that’s just going to end up getting you killed.

As I said, it’s like ripping off your husband’s testicles and wondering why he’s impotent.  You just plain cannot win most games with a turtling Germany from the first round.  You absolutely must (to win most games) go beserk on Russia kicking them in the teeth, groin and knees as fast and as hard as you can in the first two rounds and then think about protecting France and Germany from Allied attacks.

Not for sure.  Germany can simply take the 2 NOs and 6 IPCs worth of territory (doable with its starting forces), then focus on destroying Britain(if you aren’t killing Russia, you should be annoying Britain at the very least.

Here is a Conservative Strategy
G1: 1 Carrier, 1-2 Transports, Rest Infantry.  Take Eastern Front, sink British Fleet, sacrificing your Subs
G2: 1 Carrier, 3 Transports/Fighters, Rest Infantry/Tanks.  Take Karelia using Transports.  If Britain was stupid, take them instead.
G3+: Build Fighters, Tanks, and Infantry.  Take Britain when possible.  If you can’t, repel Allied forces and sink Allied Fleets, stalling for time while the other Axis Members glut themselves.

Japan should get itself a nice helping of Eurasia, but should make sure to grab Russian territory whenever possible, through the entrances  in Siberia, China, and India.
Italy should should get itself a nice helping of Africa, repel American fleets in the Atlantic, and head up through the Middle East as well.

@Cmdr:

1)  Russia can invade Manchuria with 7 Infantry.  This is a gift of 21 IPC to Japan.
2)  England or America can land something in Russian territories (again, a gift to the Axis of -5 IPC to Russia!)
3)  America can ignore Japan completely allowing them to get up to 70-90 IPC in which case, you don’t need Germany anymore!
4)  The allies can ignore Africa resulting in Italy earning 20-30 IPC in which case, Italy can save Germany from itself.

Also, if they let either Britain be captured period, or East US be captured and then successfully built in.

[bugoo]

If your going naval purchase I would grab 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, and 1 inf.

Reason is this defends your fleet from UK air, allows you to trade kar, and gives you alot of firepower to use against a UK fleet. A carrier grants you no offensive gain.  Turn 2 you can purchase trannies, suicide the fleet, whatever the game desires.  You don’t have the units to transport on turn 2 if you buy heavy navy anyway, nor does russia have the offensive power on turn 1 or 2 to take advantage of your lull.  Not saying its a good idea but you would be surprised how large of a fleet 2 destroyers, 2 cruisers, a bomber, and 2-4 figs can kill though  :-)

[axis_roll]

@Cmdr:

As for Axis, well, I guess he’s a bit shell-shocked, he’s lost so many arguments to me in the past he does not even post a realistic response, only a personal attack on me.  I’m a girl, I’m used to men treating me like property and a nobody without a braincell to my name.  It’s okay.  Male chauvinism is alive and well. :)

LOL.  You’re deluded as usual.  No arguements have been WON by you.
Perhaps you’ve outlasted me in a thread because you post incessantly or over and over.

and over

and over.

Usually, you end up arguing with yourself and prove yourself incorrect.

This post is a PERFECT example:

@Cmdr:

Honestly, the Axis has 5 rounds to secure the game.  After that, the allies will be recovered and in position. (Does not mean you will lose if you do not have domination of the board or control of Moscow, so please don’t assume that’s my position.)

You make one statement, then issue a caveat against yourself.

Jen’s posts are sort of like a car crash… you can’t help but look and …
wonder if anybody got hurt.

[axis_roll]

@DarthMaximus:

I guess you can consider it a German IPM.  Russia has too much to defend and not enough offense early, so larger G inf stacks is often enough to force the Russians back.

If you do that, I’ve heard you’ll lose your testicles, or something like that
:-P

:lol:

[wodan46]

@bugoo:

If your going naval purchase I would grab 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser, and 1 inf.

Your Fleet: 1 Transport, 1 Sub, 2 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers (12 Attack, 11 Defense, 5 HP, 2 Carry, costs 28 of start money
My Fleet: 2 Transports, 1 Sub, 1 Carrier, 2 Fighters, 1 Cruiser (12 Attack, 14 Defense, 5 HP, 4 Carry, costs 21 of start money

My fleet is better than your fleet, and cheaper as well.

Here is a sample build for first 3 turns:
G1: 1 Carrier, 1 Transport, 1 Fighter
G2: 1 Carrier, 2 Transports, 1 Fighter, remainder (14ish) on Ground Units (19 Attack, 22 Defense, 8 HP, 8 Carry)
G3: 2 Bombers, 4 Infantry, 4 Tanks, (this is useful regardless of capturing Britain on turn 3)