Unbeatable Allied Strategy

[Jennifer]

@LT04:

dakgoalie38,

The US was runnig SBR’s and Russia was beating down the E Europe so what was UK doing as a part of this plan?

LT

If it were me, the UK would also be going SBR campaigns.

@Krieghund:

It depends.  If you’re playing by the box rules, each bomber can do up to 10 IPCs.  If you’re playing by the Larry Harris Tournament Rules, the total of all attacks for each turn is a maximum of 10 IPCs.  If you’re not using LHTR, you should be, for this and other reasons.

I believe you are incorrect here.  LHTR for heavy bombers is 1d6+1 damage per bomber up to territory max.  That is, of course, if they have not changed again and I just did not notice.

As for the book rules, I thought it was 2d6, but again, I never - not even once - played AAR with the manual from the box.

[losttribe04]

@Cmdr:

@LT04:

dakgoalie38,

The US was runnig SBR’s and Russia was beating down the E Europe so what was UK doing as a part of this plan?

LT

If it were me, the UK would also be going SBR campaigns.

I had thought of that but the US at some point wouldn’t need any assistance from the UK here.  I was wondering if the UK massed a navy to destroy the German Navy, or built a transport armada for moving into Norway or W Europe.

LT

[Jennifer]

I say England would be doing SBRs as well because the most America can do to Germany (assuming they are not silly enough to build more Industrial Complexes) is 16 IPC.  So if England joins in, then the allies can potentially do 32 IPC in damage.

[losttribe04]

@Cmdr:

I say England would be doing SBRs as well because the most America can do to Germany (assuming they are not silly enough to build more Industrial Complexes) is 16 IPC.  So if England joins in, then the allies can potentially do 32 IPC in damage.

Oh I agree but at some point you need to start nabing real estate, that’s why I thought UK may have a diffrent role.

I could see if UK did the SBR for the first say three rounds till the US gets a decent Air Force going, but at some point how many bombers do you need?

LT

[Krieghund]

@Cmdr:

@Krieghund:

It depends.  If you’re playing by the box rules, each bomber can do up to 10 IPCs.  If you’re playing by the Larry Harris Tournament Rules, the total of all attacks for each turn is a maximum of 10 IPCs.  If you’re not using LHTR, you should be, for this and other reasons.

I believe you are incorrect here.  LHTR for heavy bombers is 1d6+1 damage per bomber up to territory max.  That is, of course, if they have not changed again and I just did not notice.

As for the book rules, I thought it was 2d6, but again, I never - not even once - played AAR with the manual from the box.

Yes, you’re right about how much damage each bomber can do, but what I was talking about was the damage that can be done to the Germany IC in one turn under each ruleset.

[Jennifer]

Didn’t realize you couldn’t do 20 IPC dmg to Germany if you used two different nations.  Kinda figured that technically you COULD do 30 dmg to Germany (Russia - 10 IPC, England - 10 IPC, America - 10 IPC)

[Krieghund]

@Cmdr:

Didn’t realize you couldn’t do 20 IPC dmg to Germany if you used two different nations.  Kinda figured that technically you COULD do 30 dmg to Germany (Russia - 10 IPC, England - 10 IPC, America - 10 IPC)

You can.  You can do up to 10 on each of the Allied powers’ turns.

[Jennifer]

@Krieghund:

@Cmdr:

Didn’t realize you couldn’t do 20 IPC dmg to Germany if you used two different nations.  Kinda figured that technically you COULD do 30 dmg to Germany (Russia - 10 IPC, England - 10 IPC, America - 10 IPC)

You can.  You can do up to 10 on each of the Allied powers’ turns.

Thanks for clarifying.  It’s been a long time since I read up on SBRs in AAR.  I really only do SBR in AARe now, so I was beginning to wonder! hehe.

So technically with England and America going at it, you could do up to 32 IPC damage to Germany - realistically speaking.

[losttribe04]

So for this strategy to be most effective ([edit:] with the LHTR) Russia needs  1-3 BMR’s as well.

That could put this into the to hard to do box.

LT

[Krieghund]

@Cmdr:

So technically with England and America going at it, you could do up to 32 IPC damage to Germany - realistically speaking.

Yes, under LHTR, by bombing both Germany and Southern Europe.

@LT04:

So for this strategy to be most effective ([edit:] with the LHTR) Russia needs  1-3 BMR’s as well.

That could put this into the to hard to do box.

LT

Yes, it is much harder to do under LHTR with the damage cap.  However, under the box rules it’s ridiculously easy, with each bomber being capped at 10 IPCs.  You need only about 5-6 heavy bombers to reduce Germany to zero IPCs every turn, unless Germany gets very lucky with AA.

[Guest]

I have checked both my Rules manual for Revised that came with the game, and the Rules download from the Avalon Hill website.  I do not find in either set of rules anything about capping heavy bomber attacks at 10 IPC per bomber.  The only cap that is mentioned is a Strategic Bombing Raid may not inflict more damage for each bomber than the territory has IPC value.

Saying that each bomber is capped at 10 IPC is very much different that saying the each bomber can do a maximum of 10 IPC damage because that is Germany’s IPC value. 

@Krieghund:

Yes, it is much harder to do under LHTR with the damage cap.  However, under the box rules it’s ridiculously easy, with each bomber being capped at 10 IPCs.  You need only about 5-6 heavy bombers to reduce Germany to zero IPCs every turn, unless Germany gets very lucky with AA.

[TimTheEnchanter]

@timerover51:

I have checked both my Rules manual for Revised that came with the game, and the Rules download from the Avalon Hill website.  I do not find in either set of rules anything about capping heavy bomber attacks at 10 IPC per bomber.  The only cap that is mentioned is a Strategic Bombing Raid may not inflict more damage for each bomber than the territory has IPC value.

Saying that each bomber is capped at 10 IPC is very much different that saying the each bomber can do a maximum of 10 IPC damage because that is Germany’s IPC value. 

@Krieghund:

Yes, it is much harder to do under LHTR with the damage cap.  However, under the box rules it’s ridiculously easy, with each bomber being capped at 10 IPCs.  You need only about 5-6 heavy bombers to reduce Germany to zero IPCs every turn, unless Germany gets very lucky with AA.

I think he just used 10 because the case being cited was an attack against Germany.

[Jennifer]

Also, I don’t think Russia needs in on the game.

-16 IPC from England + -16 IPC from America is -32 IPC total.  Russia should use their cash to exploit the decimated German manufacturing ability, not in bombers.  With -32 potential damage a round, I don’t think Germany’s going to have a lot left over for Russia to bomb anyway

[Krieghund]

@TimTheEnchanter:

@timerover51:

I have checked both my Rules manual for Revised that came with the game, and the Rules download from the Avalon Hill website.  I do not find in either set of rules anything about capping heavy bomber attacks at 10 IPC per bomber.  The only cap that is mentioned is a Strategic Bombing Raid may not inflict more damage for each bomber than the territory has IPC value.

Saying that each bomber is capped at 10 IPC is very much different that saying the each bomber can do a maximum of 10 IPC damage because that is Germany’s IPC value. 

@Krieghund:

Yes, it is much harder to do under LHTR with the damage cap.  However, under the box rules it’s ridiculously easy, with each bomber being capped at 10 IPCs.  You need only about 5-6 heavy bombers to reduce Germany to zero IPCs every turn, unless Germany gets very lucky with AA.

I think he just used 10 because the case being cited was an attack against Germany.

Exactly.

[dakgoalie38]

For those questioning what the UK should do, now hearing about the Larry Harris Tournament Rules it depends.  If playing a normal game without the LHTR, then UK should do an India factory to stop Japan from advancing too far and should use its transports to get into Africa, and then once Africa is taken back the forces there can move east to assist the factory in India which by this point should be close to being taken by Japan.  Of course, the UK would sieze any opportunity to make landings in Europe if Germany went weak on defense.

If playing with LHTR, then I would suggest doing what most other people suggested and use Britain to assist in bombing Germany.  Russian bombers, like Jennifer said, would be pointless.  With Germany losing 32 IPCs per turn, Russia should have double their economy and therefore should focus on ground forces.  Germany doesn’t have to be completely bankrupt for Russia to win, it just makes it easier.  But if Russia focuses on bombers, it sort of ruins the whole point of going after Germany since you then have a weakened Germany with nobody to take it over.

[eumaies]

OK, separate from the question of whether bombing hits max out at 10 damage for a square worth 10, let me take another shot at this math:

US builds 2 bombers and 2 rolls a turn (I wouldn’t necessarily do it this way, but it’s a good example)

Assume success in the technology at the start of US3.

Assume germany makes 40 per turn - bombing (a conservatise assumption since you are leaving germany alone)

A non-heavy bomber does 2.9 damage per shot (counting AA;'s), a heavy bomber does 5.8 damage per shot.

Bomb # hitting Germ Damage Germany Spends
Normal US0 0 0 40
Normal US1 0 0 40
Normal US2 1 2.9 37.1
HEAVY US3 2.83 16.43 23.57
HEAVY US4 4.36 25.29 14.71
HEAVY US5 5.63 32.68 7.32
HEAVY US6 6.7 38.83 1.17

So germany gets 3 full builds, and is not receiving as much pressure from the US so can afford to send the bulk of them at Russia.

I don’t know, that’s plenty of builds for me to put enough pressure on russia to allow them to be weakened when japan breaks through.  and meanwhile africa is more vulnerable to conquest by germany or japan as well.  I’m just not convinced that the 24 + 15 cash germany uses to turtle after its first three builds is really insufficient to defend itself.  while it’s first 3 builds focused primarily on russia can get the job done in terms of exhausting her resources.

Doesn’t strike me as unbeatable at all.

[Jennifer]

I think there are flaws in your calculations Eumaies:

1)  Why is America not bombing right off?
2)  Why are you wasting time on technology before you have at least 3 bombers running, preferably 5 bombers?
3)  Why are we wasting money on technology anyway?  5 Bombers > 3 Bombers + Tech (figure 30 IPC for the tech) but equal cost.  Not to mention, it’s much harder to shoot down 5 bombers than 3 bombers.
4)  Why is Germany being left alone?  USA, UK and USSR have plenty of units they can use to stop the German advance, especially if America is the only one focusing on bombers.  That’s 54 IPC for USSR + UK vs 40 IPC for Germany, a 14 IPC advantage to the Allies!

Figure you take 2.5 IPC in damage per bomber and do 3.5 IPC in damage per bomber.  By USA 2 you should easily have 6 Allied Bombers running. (UK starts with 1 and buys 2 on UK 1.  USA starts with 1 and buys 2 on USA 1.)

63.5 = 21 IPC to Germany on average
62.5=15 IPC divided between England and America, on Average.

Coupled with influxes of troops into Africa and the Russians stonewalling in Europe, I can easily see the Germans getting into a very tight situation very quickly.  Especially if Stalin goes mad and stacks the trading territories with 4 infantry, armor in each.  Now Germany has to for go liberation or dedicate large numbers of units to liberation which will bleed them faster.

[eumaies]

good questions.

1. America can’t bomb on turn 1, you can’t reach germany.  On turn 2, only 1 bomber reaches, on US turn 3, your first “new” batch of bombers has arrived.

2. I wouldn’t waste money on tech that early, but that was the original poster’s idea.  I would perhaps build an extra bomber on US turn 2, and then spend less on bombers and more on tech later if I were attempting this.  Similar overall dynamics, though.

3. I basically agree, hence my post.  But for the record heavy bombers is worthwhile… you double your damage without doubling the number of AA guns fired at you, I just don’t think it’s broken.

4. Your argument is somewhat weak here – obviously Russia and UK have to consider japan, whether sooner or later.  And also, germany is really going to be making more than 40 for the first few turns, which makes my estimates conservative.

By USA 2, in your scenario, the allies would have bombed with 3uk bombers and 1 us bomber on that turn.  On USA3, that would increase.  in any case, no one is particularly concerned that regular bombers are “unbeatable” – i personally would never waste UK resources exclusively on bombers when they are actually in much closer range to attack germany directly.

More to the point, the general case for heavy bombers is overstated by many because they fail to consider the opportunity cost.  If i shell out $90 on 4 bombers + tech, I could instead have, in a simple example, 9 US fighters.  These fighters would cause significant damage on each turn in conjunction with land attacks.  They could easily do more than 20 damage per turn in killing german armor and infantry.

So I just don’t agree with the overall “unbeatable” storyline.

[italiansarecoming]

man usa is all bombers i feel a bit wacked becaus ei forget ground forces i am sorry……

[Jennifer]

That’s my point, what makes it viable is over-whelming them with bombers.

1 Heavy Bomber shot down by AA Gun is -2d6 in damage.

it is doubly likely that a heavy bomber will be shot down than two regular bombers will be shot down.

1 Bomber shot down by AA Gun is -1d6

Therefore, it is doubly beneficial to use two bombers instead of one bomber.

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That said, Heavy Bombers do have their use (original rules that htey get 2d6, and can score two hits) because you can obliterate fleets.

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Also, Japan can be safely ignored for 5 game turns before having to deal with them.  In 5 turns, Russia should be sitting on Berlin’s doorstep if you got slightly lucky on your bombing runs.  By then, you should be able to replace Russian units with American and British units and send them back towards Japan. (Japan’s earning 50, Russia’s earning -8 for lost territories, + 14 for conquered territories, so 30 IPC enough to stop Japan’s advance.)