Triple A vs Battlemap: The Duel of Two

[Woodstock]

I have been looking for ways to play A&A online, and I must say, Triple A seems like the best.
There’s no stuff with dice servers or whatever, just download, and play, easy as 123.

[Jennifer]

Triple A does not work on my system either.  Actually, it has not worked on the past three systems I’ve owned, which to me says it is an inferior product because I am the goddess of radiance and therefore can never be wrong.

As for functionality, I find Battlemap much easier to work with.  You don’t need an edit feature, you just move the pieces around like you would on the game table, right down to the chip level!  You don’t have that feature in TripleA. (I’ve used it some on the school computers.)  In TripleA you move each piece individually or you can open up a completely new menu and fuss around with that.

Likewise, none of the movement rules are broken in Battlemap.  No need to move your carriers around and then undo their moves thus confusing everyone to what’s going on.  You just move your pieces where you need them.

Also, in Battlemap, AA Guns don’t have 97% accuracy rates like in TripleA. (This could be an exaggeration, but honestly, why is it like all the time that frazzin AA gun scores perfectly in TripleA anyway?)

Also, in Battlemap, opening a map is as easy as 1, 2, 3. (Open Battlemap, go to file, open.)  In TripleA, if it works, it takes more steps and that’s IF it works, as I said.  It does not always work…I won’t even go so far as to say it usually works.

Finally, in Battlemap, you can see much more of the board than in tripleA.  My battlemap, for instance, shows everything without scrolling, but I have a widescreen display.  On a normal display I still see roughly 80% of the map.

This is not to say that battlemap does not have it’s own faults.  But rather that the problems in battlemap are so much more insignificant when compared to TripleA it’s a wonder anyone ever uses it except as a method to try out a new bone-head strategy (if TripleA wins, then it’s such a bad strategy that even a dog would know better than to try it.)

As for Mapview, it still has long load up time problems.  Fix that, give me a notepad section to just type instead of those one liner note things, and give me the functionality to move units like in Battlemap and mapview would be far superior.  (I guess it would be easier to just put arrows in battlemap…)

[Lucifer]

I actually tried to install Battlemap a while ago using win xp, couldn’t do it  :-o

Now I’m using linux. TripleA worked on both my systems, except it would freeze to many times.

There are so many players using TripleA, if dice was skewed then someone would notice it.

There’s a zoom feature in TripleA, no problem in seeing the whole map if you want to. The AI is not really an AI, is just for testing out custom maps etc. The AI in gametableonline is not good either. Not much better than the TripleA AI.

If Battlemap would let me play realtime like TripleA and gametableonline, then I would try it  :wink:

[Jennifer]

Subotai,

The problem you had, I believe, is that you tried to INSTALL battlemap.

Battlemap is such an awesome program you do not need to install it.  You just double click the executable and it opens.  No installation necessary. (Okay, it’s so OLD that it’s just an executable.  I have many such programs from ages past that are similar.  No load time, very low demand on system resources.)

[axis_roll]

@The:

@axis_roll:

No Mapview in your poll?

I guess everyone has their favorites.
It’s like everything else in life: trade-offs.  Pros and cons for each.

Sorry A_R, I had forgotten about Mapview. But considering so few people use it around here - based on the fact in League games people always say they use in-house dice and Battlemap, followed by a small amount of Triple A’ers - I didn’t bother to include it in my polling.

But since you use it, why not explain/extol its virtues and why you use it.

The thing I like most about Mapview is it’s ability to keep game history all in one file represented by different tabs on the bottom of the map.  this can be very helpful in planning out the next few turns, or even just your own turn.

I also personally like the arrows to identify unit movement. 
I dislike typing the cryptic combat / NCMs like 3 inf, tank, ftr (eeu), 2 inf (arc), 2 inf (weu) via tpt in sz5 > kar

Plus all your moves are on the map so you don’t have to look at the map and look at your typed combat moves and look at the map and look at your typed combat moves to make sure you didn’t forget to move a 1 inf walk in to an empty spot!

Mapview has more realistic looking pieces/icons, so there’s the ‘coolness’ factor.

Cons I have heard…
Jen rails against the mapview start-up of approx 10 seconds… so there is a slight delay.

The files can get large since they hold history.  Who doesn’t have broadband these days though?

Unless you have a larger monitor or a great video card to pump up the screen resolution, you can only see portions of the map.  Although there’s been a recent release of a smaller map, so I think I’ve read.

[Woodstock]

Likewise, none of the movement rules are broken in Battlemap.  No need to move your carriers around and then undo their moves thus confusing everyone to what’s going on.  You just move your pieces where you need them.

Eurh….care to elaborate? what movement rues are broken in TripleA?

Also, in Battlemap, AA Guns don’t have 97% accuracy rates like in TripleA. (This could be an exaggeration, but honestly, why is it like all the time that frazzin AA gun scores perfectly in TripleA anyway?)

Yes. That indeed was an exaggeration :P
Both my German and Japan bombers managed to survive the entire game throughout :D.

Also, in Battlemap, opening a map is as easy as 1, 2, 3. (Open Battlemap, go to file, open.)  In TripleA, if it works, it takes more steps and that’s IF it works, as I said.  It does not always work…I won’t even go so far as to say it usually works.

Hmm, I click TripleA.exe, click Start Local Game / Find Game on the Lobby, and I am off to go.

Finally, in Battlemap, you can see much more of the board than in tripleA.  My battlemap, for instance, shows everything without scrolling, but I have a widescreen display.  On a normal display I still see roughly 80% of the map.

Zoom, increase unit size, etc.

Wow. And here I was. Getting rid of gaming console-discussion boards to get away from Playstation and Xbox fanboys, and now I am right here stuck in a Battlemap vs TripleA flame war! ;)

[a44bigdog]

I find to me Abattlemap is like having a handy electronic game board. Heck it beats the real board in that it tracks IPCs itself whereas the IPC chart in real games seems to get mysteriously out of whack about once a turn. I really don’t see what the arguments against the Flags are. Ya put one in a territory you take just like the country markers you use with the real game board. You use them just like the money you get and toss them in Saudi-Arabia. You also use them to track what turn it is in the Sahara.

AAA really dose nothing for me. Yeah the little unit icons or cute, so what. The carrier movement crap is irritating enough to pull my hair out. The countries change color with possession, big whup.

As far as head to head play I would rather play with both players posting in the forum at the same time as that way I am not completely tied to the computer. While they make their turn I can wander of to smoke a cig, surf other sites or watch tv.

[Jennifer]

@Woodstock:

Likewise, none of the movement rules are broken in Battlemap.  No need to move your carriers around and then undo their moves thus confusing everyone to what’s going on.  You just move your pieces where you need them.

Eurh….care to elaborate? what movement rues are broken in TripleA?

I did, re-read that.  You have to move your carriers, then your fighters, then undo your carrier moves if you don’t want to actually move your carriers there.  In Battlemap/Mapview, you do not have to do that.

Also, in Battlemap, AA Guns don’t have 97% accuracy rates like in TripleA. (This could be an exaggeration, but honestly, why is it like all the time that frazzin AA gun scores perfectly in TripleA anyway?)

Yes. That indeed was an exaggeration :P
Both my German and Japan bombers managed to survive the entire game throughout :D.

yes, well, I’m not the only one in history to complain about the inaccurate accuracy of AA Guns in TripleA. :P  I think you’ve just been lucky, or only had one game where both bombers survived because you avoided the guns. hehe.

Also, in Battlemap, opening a map is as easy as 1, 2, 3. (Open Battlemap, go to file, open.)  In TripleA, if it works, it takes more steps and that’s IF it works, as I said.  It does not always work…I won’t even go so far as to say it usually works.

Hmm, I click TripleA.exe, click Start Local Game / Find Game on the Lobby, and I am off to go.

Yes, you double click TripleA (step 1), click start a game (step 2), find an opponent (step 3), synchronize games (step 4), then load the bid (step 5), confirm the bid (step 6) and then you are off.

In battlemap you find an opponent, start the game.  2 steps vs 6

Finally, in Battlemap, you can see much more of the board than in tripleA.  My battlemap, for instance, shows everything without scrolling, but I have a widescreen display.  On a normal display I still see roughly 80% of the map.

Zoom, increase unit size, etc.

I don’t need the unit size increased.  I need the units to be placed in the territory where I want them, I need them to move in groups as easily as in battlemap, I need the map to show me 80-100% of the board at a time, not 10-15% of the board at a time, on a WIDE FRAKKING SCREEN MONITOR!

Note:  Yes, Mapview has the miniature map that allows you to see more of the board, and that’s frakkin awesome, except, you have to get your opponent to use it too.  I too like the arrows, but I don’t like the notes process and I hate the movement of units.  I prefer when my units auto-stack and when I can shift/click, control/click, shift/control/click or just click and drag the number of units I want without going through two sub menus first.

Battlemap is all about the ease of use.  It’s the Linux of Map programs vs Mapview (the OS version) or TripleA (the busted old Microsoft version) imho.

[Woodstock]

@Cmdr:

@Woodstock:

Likewise, none of the movement rules are broken in Battlemap.  No need to move your carriers around and then undo their moves thus confusing everyone to what’s going on.  You just move your pieces where you need them.

Eurh….care to elaborate? what movement rues are broken in TripleA?

I did, re-read that.  You have to move your carriers, then your fighters, then undo your carrier moves if you don’t want to actually move your carriers there.  In Battlemap/Mapview, you do not have to do that.

Also, in Battlemap, AA Guns don’t have 97% accuracy rates like in TripleA. (This could be an exaggeration, but honestly, why is it like all the time that frazzin AA gun scores perfectly in TripleA anyway?)

Yes. That indeed was an exaggeration :P
Both my German and Japan bombers managed to survive the entire game throughout :D.

yes, well, I’m not the only one in history to complain about the inaccurate accuracy of AA Guns in TripleA. :P  I think you’ve just been lucky, or only had one game where both bombers survived because you avoided the guns. hehe.

Also, in Battlemap, opening a map is as easy as 1, 2, 3. (Open Battlemap, go to file, open.)  In TripleA, if it works, it takes more steps and that’s IF it works, as I said.  It does not always work…I won’t even go so far as to say it usually works.

Hmm, I click TripleA.exe, click Start Local Game / Find Game on the Lobby, and I am off to go.

Yes, you double click TripleA (step 1), click start a game (step 2), find an opponent (step 3), synchronize games (step 4), then load the bid (step 5), confirm the bid (step 6) and then you are off.

In battlemap you find an opponent, start the game.  2 steps vs 6

Finally, in Battlemap, you can see much more of the board than in tripleA.  My battlemap, for instance, shows everything without scrolling, but I have a widescreen display.  On a normal display I still see roughly 80% of the map.

Zoom, increase unit size, etc.

I don’t need the unit size increased.  I need the units to be placed in the territory where I want them, I need them to move in groups as easily as in battlemap, I need the map to show me 80-100% of the board at a time, not 10-15% of the board at a time, on a WIDE FRAKKING SCREEN MONITOR!

Note:  Yes, Mapview has the miniature map that allows you to see more of the board, and that’s frakkin awesome, except, you have to get your opponent to use it too.  I too like the arrows, but I don’t like the notes process and I hate the movement of units.  I prefer when my units auto-stack and when I can shift/click, control/click, shift/control/click or just click and drag the number of units I want without going through two sub menus first.

Battlemap is all about the ease of use.  It’s the Linux of Map programs vs Mapview (the OS version) or TripleA (the busted old Microsoft version) imho.

~~Once again, I have to bow my head in defeat.

• is off to check out Battlemap *~~

Scratch that. After reading this topic, I’ll stick to TripleAAA. It is indeed just an electronic board, whereas TripleA seems more like the entire game, to which you sit down, play, watch the opponent etc etc.
Me and my friends like to do that, so I guess it’s a matter of personal taste.

[Lucifer]

When I think about it, Battlemap and TripleA is so different that they really shouldnt be compared. TripleA is GAME (engine), Battlemap is just a map…

I think the single most important reason why I prefer TripleA is because I don’t have to think about anything except strats and tactics. TripleA controls all the rules. Now, TripleA is still not 100% revised, but it’s very close, close enough for most players.

[Black_Elk]

I’ve been playing and contributing at the tripleA site for about 4 years now, and the main reason why I like it is its ease of use. By that I mean that you can take a new person, who’s never played A&A (or maybe they’ve only played a few times), and its relatively easy to teach them the broad strokes. The computer does all the stats tracking, so all the player needs to think about are things like purchasing strategies, and combat tactics. Just earlier tonight for example, I was coaching two newbies on some of the standard openings, and even though neither of them had played Revised online before, they were both able to pick up on the basic principles and strategies right away. After one practice round, and some minimal explanation and discussion, they were able to launch into a pretty effective game against each other afterwards. I think that’s one of the things you can do in tripleA thats sort of tricky to do via email, or on a forums posting.

The problems as far as I’m concerned are mainly with the user interface being a little cumbersome (right click drag to scroll, unit selection etc.) and to a lesser extent the lack of good path finding logic.  Many people prefer LL to dice, which isn’t really my style, but I’ve also met a lot of people who enjoy the same type of gameplay that I do. For the most part it works pretty well, and now that you can edit mistakes, corrections or house rules, it has a lot more functionality than it used to. Also, I’ll admit, I do like watching the colors change on the map. :)

Anyway, I guess that’s chiefly why I use tripleA. Its not particularly convenient to install or customize, and harder still to set up your router and such, but once you get it working its pretty simple to manage. Also its nice to just find a quick pick up game in the lobby. I get in a good 3-4 games a week if I’m having a solid run, and its still pretty easy to find a multi game with a decent crowd even at obscure hours of the morning.  :-D

I haven’t used tripleA for PBEM play in a while though, not for any of the official A&A games anyway. I find Revised a little slow going PBEM and much prefer to play in real time, with the ability to chat or talk strategy. I feel its a little closer to the boardgame in that respect. I don’t have much experience with Abattlemap though. How do you guys set up games usually? Is it like in a IRC chat room, and email style?  If its PBEM exclusive, then I don’t think you can really make a comparison. TripleA can handle PBEM play reasonably well, but its definitely geared more towards games in real time. If you prefer email play, then the other things that set tripleA apart probably won’t matter as much to you.

I’ll likely stick with TripleA for now, at least until someone makes an official game engine for A&A that has more functionality and a larger player base.

[a44bigdog]

Most games here are 1 vs 1 so there is no need to talk strategy. Although for multiplayer games there is always the option of various voice and type instant messengers. As far as the play goes players post their purchases and moves in the forum. Then they roll the dice on the server here. The rest of the moves are posted out and then the map file uploaded. I would recommend checking out the league section for a better example of what I am describing. Play can vary from PBEM type where it is a day or so between moves to real time if both players are online.

[Lucifer]

@Cmdr:

I don’t need the unit size increased.  I need the units to be placed in the territory where I want them, I need them to move in groups as easily as in battlemap, I need the map to show me 80-100% of the board at a time, not 10-15% of the board at a time, on a WIDE FRAKKING SCREEN MONITOR!

The zoom feature is probably the least problem of TripleA…

Here is my zoom levels, about 40% to 50%, and 100% unit size.

edit: I have a laptop, 17" widescreen.

try this link:  http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=92252397yt3.png

[General_D.Fox]

So Jen (and anybody else), what would make you use Triple A if you already don’t? What features would you want to see added/fixed/taken away for it to improve?

[Jennifer]

Make TripleA work like Battlemap.

If it was as easy to use, was as reliable, and had the same features as Battlemap, but with AI and automated dice, then I would switch.

[Black_Elk]

I think its pretty reliable, maybe not as straight forward, but I think it grows on you the more you use it. I wouldn’t hold out much hope for a decent AI, but its pretty easy these days to hook up with other opponents in the lobby. What were the issues you were having? Maybe I can help

jasonwclark AT gmail DOT com

where AT=@ and DOT= .

:)

Or keep an eye out for “Triplelk” in the lobby.

Would be fun to get in some multiplayer games with the people over here. I could camp out there and help you guys work through some the issues.

[Jennifer]

Well, for one, the system refuses to open anyone’s file sent to me, it just reports it as corrupt and closes down.

For another, I want to see the entire map on the screen without scrolling.

I’d also like to have the power to put my pieces in the territory where I want them, not have them shuffled seemingly at random as I move units into and out of the territory. (I like infantry, artillery, armor, fighters, bombers and at sea, fighters, carriers, battleships, destroyers, submarines, transports with transported equipment to the starboard side of the transports.)

Furthermore, it would be great if I could shift click to drag 5 units, control click to drag 10 units and shift-control click to drag an entire stack at a time.

A currency counter for each nation would also be helpful.

Also a technology tracker would also be helpful.

And while we are in the process of making TripleA worth using, let’s add support for national advantages and maybe even AAR:Enhanced though at the moment, National Advantages and LHTR 2.0 National Advantages would be leaps forward so significant it would make the moon landings seem as significant as finding a hot dog at a baseball game.

But that’s just one girl’s opinion on the matter.

[Black_Elk]

Insert Quote
Well, for one, the system refuses to open anyone’s file sent to me, it just reports it as corrupt and closes down.

That sounds rather weird. Is this a problem just with playing via the forums? Most of my games are in Real Time, or to a lesser extent in PBEM. If you can log into the lobby though, I can host a live game for us to play. I can’t imagine in that case why we’d need to ever open or send any files back and forth. For the corrupt files, I’m not really sure what would be causing that. Perhaps someone else in the lobby will have more tech know how than me though, and be able to provide some insight to help you fix the problem.

For another, I want to see the entire map on the screen without scrolling.

I’d also like to have the power to put my pieces in the territory where I want them, not have them shuffled seemingly at random as I move units into and out of the territory. (I like infantry, artillery, armor, fighters, bombers and at sea, fighters, carriers, battleships, destroyers, submarines, transports with transported equipment to the starboard side of the transports.)

Mmmm I see what you mean.

I’m rather the same way with the units, especially on the real game board. I like to have the pieces all organized and facing the right direction. Aesthetically, I think tripleA is something of a disappointment in that regard (because the unit locations are all preset in the placement picker utility.) It has something to do with the code, that I don’t really understand, but the end result is that there is only a certain number of possible locations for the units and they switch to and from them depending on how many there are in a space. If the units spill over into a neighboring territory then there is a little black line to show where they really are, but I agree, its not the sweetest looking thing in the world.

The user interface is also a little cumbersome, with right clicking to scroll, and the text being hard to read when you zoom out to the see the full map. It is possible to zoom out to the full map under the game options, it just doesn’t look as clean. I’m not sure what we can do about that at this point, but I can tell you Zero Pilot and I have been pushing for a sweeter looking map from day one. Its possible ComradeKev will be able to help us implement some new ideas though, so I’m hopeful that something might actually get done this time. We don’t have a shift drag thing, but there is a control click to select a stack of units (or single left click for individual units.) Sometimes it can get a bit unwieldy, but its not as bad as it seems at first.

IPCs, techs, VCs, and TUV (total unit value) is all tracked in the stats window below the minimap. I’ll be the first to tell you its not the greatest looking, but I believe all the critical information is there. What sort of tracker would you like to see exactly?

And while we are in the process of making TripleA worth using, let’s add support for national advantages and maybe even AAR:Enhanced though at the moment, National Advantages and LHTR 2.0 National Advantages would be leaps forward so significant it would make the moon landings seem as significant as finding a hot dog at a baseball game.

But that’s just one girl’s opinion on the matter.

Totally
National Advantages are something I would also like to see. Right now we do have some flexibility in this area using the Edit Mode, but I know its not the best solution. Still, the engine is much improved from the versions that were out even 6 months ago. I’m hopeful that renewed interest following the release of AA50, will spark some new development. Now would be the time to post suggestions on the dev boards I think. Since Kev seems to be pretty receptive to a lot of the ideas floating around right now.

Just let me know if you ever want to take another crack at it. Its probably not comparable PBEM, or PBF, but for the Real Time game with a quick set up I think its still a pretty useful little application.

:)

[Jennifer]

That’s not to say there are no redeeming qualities for TripleA.  I like that E. USA and W. USA (or C. USA for revised) are connected so you can scroll all the way around.

Anyway, the problem is when someone emails a file to me to open and do my turn.

[Black_Elk]

What type of email account to do you have? If you want I can send you a gmail invite. Most of the regulars use gmail to communicate for A&A related stuff, and to play PBEM (since it organizes all the dice rolls into conversations, making them easier to check or delete in blocks.)

When you save a game it should have the extension .tsvg
so autosave.tsvg or Elk-v-Jen-Germany1.tsvg
something like that

Then you just place that file in the ‘saved games’ folder of your tripleA directory. When you launch the game (PBEM) you click the tab that says ‘load saved game’ and then choose the file you want to use. When you’re finished rolling you save out the file, usually with the current player/round listed, and send it back to your opponent.

When your opponent sends you an email with a save, you might have to right click and ‘save target as’ (and then send it to the saved games folder of TripleA) so that the file doesn’t open with a different program. That sometimes happens with the xml files anyway. But usually the email exchange is pretty easy to set up.

If you want I can help you troubleshoot it and get a quick game going. Just let me know

jasonwclark AT gmail.com  AT=@