A solution to HB problem is a house rule like Funcioneta suggested, but it doesnt solve the problem with the AA50 game design, it looks very good overall, but here are som minor issues, like the everlasting HB problem….
In F2F game one can always agree to use tech, but not HB.
HB is not only about SBR, this tech is gamebreaker even with a house rule with no SBR attacks.
For naval combat, ftrs and subs are most effective (in AAR rules) when calcing cost/attack punch. In AA50 this changes because bmrs are cheaper and also subs are cheaper in AA50. So in AA50 the units which are most effective in naval combat are bmrs and subs. HB is twice as effective in naval combat compared to other units.
If one player in a AA50 game gets HB rnd 1 or rnd 2, then this will shift the game balance and the player who got lucky to get HB is going to win, if both players are somewhat equally experienced.
And this will aply also regardless of SBR attacks. HB is so powerfull both in naval and land combat that the only hope for the other player is also to get HB.
If US gets HB and going after Jap, Jap will be in deeeeeep trouble. And vice versa…
With HB it will be an arms race in tech and not a competion of who got most skills making strategic decisions.
But you have boosting techs for subs and fighters, both cheaper than bombers. Maybe making HBs a 5 attack, 2 defense unit who gets a +1 for strat bombings would be enough.
Anyway, with OOB rules, as Subotai said, I’m more afraid of HB affecting naval combat. I’m not sure about this, maybe reduced cost of ships (even more with shipyards) can counter HBs.
Another item is that HB could be too powerful in Atlantic and Mediterranean with so small distances, but Pacific is another story, it has larger distances. And you need some fleet for defending your trannies and take that yummy islands. Figs can defend fleets, HBs not.
Of course, a first round HB tech could be very powerful, but chances of it with 1 dice are 1/36, less than 3%, and there are few bombers on board. Maybe is too heavy forbid techs only for so slim percent. Even so, I prefer a mandatory tech with less powerful HBs than no tech in all. Techs give a special taste to the games
Bombers are good for 1 thing for russia mobilty of 3 spaces and back and if i had to choose from a 3-4 fighter 10money - a bomber 12money and 4-1 id prob choose the bomber most likely unless i need that for 4 inf.
@Subotai:
Even if the chance of getting either rockets or HB is only 1/12(?) after hitting @6(?), you never know when this is going to occure, so for my part it means that tech is a gamebreaker because of 2 out of 12 techs is going to ruin the game I’m playing, assuming tech is on. But it’s really sad because the only 2 techs that have nothing to do with genuine strats is rockets and HB, all other techs could be fun and are not gamebreakers. It’s not only about one specific tech is going to shift the balance of the game, point is that
10 techs is about strats, 2 techs is just rolling some dice. To use most of the 12 techs you must also know how to use them, you’re not getting automatic advantage by just being lucky. There are actually several techs that seems ok (as of now). After taking a look at the fact sheet, I think all other techs are ok, just not rockets and HB.
I agree completely Subotai
If a game of strategy can depend so much on a single dice roll (ie. getting lucky and rolling HB), then said game of strategy is not worth playing (or at least the subset of rules that would allow such… ie. Tech)
This is most unfortunate as some of these Techs would indeed make the game more fun and strategic. This leads to my second point, and that is Tech should not be random.
A game of strategy should involve decision making, not just closing your eyes, rolling for some random Tech, and seeing what fate gives you. They had it right in Revised, I have no idea why they would go back. :?
I think the best would be reducing max damage to IC to its IPC value, not allowing “negative production”. Thus, Germany could get 10 points of damage, not 20 as now, and minor ICs would not be so utterly damaged.
Completely agree…
At 10IPC max damage to Germany, it’s a STRATEGY
At 20IPC max damage to Germany, it’s an EXPLOIT
@Subotai:
HB is not only about SBR, this tech is gamebreaker even with a house rule with no SBR attacks.
For naval combat,…. HB is twice as effective in naval combat compared to other units…
If US gets HB and going after Jap, Jap will be in deeeeeep trouble. And vice versa…
With HB it will be an arms race in tech and not a competion of who got most skills making strategic decisions.
I’m actually not bothered by HB itself as a Tech. What I am bothered by though, is as you imply, that there is no adequate counter to HBs.
Right now, radar is the only real counter, and that will only help land attacks and SBRs
For Naval, they should have Radar giving Cruisers and Battleships a single 1@1 AA shot
They should also have Techs increasing SUB survivability, so that going to a strong SUB fleet becomes a nice counter
Another SBR Counter would be Interceptor Tech, eg. a single 1@1 AA shot for every FTR in the territory under SBR.
Even just the existence of potential counters is enough to discourage HB (cost-effectiveness drops dramatically). The only other thing you would need to include is Directed Tech to get these counters rather than just the Random Tech nonsense that is present now.
I think the best would be reducing max damage to IC to its IPC value, not allowing “negative production”. Thus, Germany could get 10 points of damage, not 20 as now, and minor ICs would not be so utterly damaged. This would solve rockets. For HB, make the bomber a 5/2 unit instead of two dices stuff, and give a +1 to strat bombing.
Actually, I think bombers 1D6 @5 would be too weak for HB:s …
I’ve been thinking of the HB Tech also, but my suggestion is:
Heavy bomber attack value: 6
Heavy bomber defense value: 1
Heavy bomber SBR Dmg: D6+1
You think it’s too strong? I think the “always hit”-feature of a “6” attack value is rather new & cool feature.
Let’s check the stats:
With 2 x D6 @ 4, you’ve got:
44,4% chance of getting two hits
44,4% chance of getting one hit
11,1% change of getting zero hits
With 1 x D6 @6, you’ve got:
100% chance of getting 1 hit
0% chance of getting zero hits
In a potential attack of 1 HB vs 2 Inf, the “theoretical” ipc dmg done (measured in casualties for the enemy) would be:
HB at 2 x D6 @4:
0,444 x 6 + 0,444 x 3 + 0,111 x 0 = 3,96 ipc worth of units lost
HB at 1 x D6 @6:
1,000 x 3 + 0,000 x 0 = 3,00 ipc worth of units lost
So, almost 25% less damage done, with bombers hitting at @6, rather than 2@4.
Of course, I’m rather lousy at math, so I prolly did some really basic error in my calculations :-D
I had a thought about Heavy Bombers, since so mant people seem to think that the tech is broken.
Why not let them be a 5 on Attack, a 2 on Defense, and their SBRs be an automatic “5”.
Problem is, A&A is really an not a strategy game but a game of economic warfare and attrition. If you think about it, its impossible for 2 nations that are equally matched ipc wise to kill each other (asuming equal skill and luck).
HB tech gives players a way to kill units at too effectively, thus making one sides economic advantage too great. Since he can simply trade kills at a better rate, gaining territory and continue trading.
Im a lil late to the party, so excuse me for just finishing the 17 pages of this thread now :P
One thing Im stil curious on is when dmg to factories is repaired. Is it repaired before you buy your units or after? So if you get bombed down to 1 production, can you repair 3 and build 4 units that round? I think this makes the most sense.
As for HBs, I think everyone may be going a touch overboard. Without playing this NEW GAME with these tech rules you dont really know how powerful theyll be, actually there are reasons why ‘winning’ HB in the tech lotto can be a bad thing and is prolly why Ive never tried for tech. If you get HBs you almost HAVE to make use of them and your whole game turns into a bomber-fest. I personally dont find that a fun way to play.
Plus, if the USA got HBs and kept buying and sending bombers to EU, maybe Japan has an even easier time to get its NOs and VCs? Id at least like to play it or hear from someone that has before I speculate on how powerful HBs are and if my gaming group will even allow them.
As for a recent question about why tech are even random in the first place, I have a feeling it has to do with fun factor, if you can go straight for a tech like in previous editions NO ONE EVER USES ANY OF THE ‘WEAKER’ ONES. So it always degenerates into a rockets/hb tech whoring game (read: no fun). Thats my take on it.
I have a feeling almost every country will spend at least 5ipcs in the first round on tech, should make for a different experience each game, I like.
As for HBs, I think everyone may be going a touch overboard. Without playing this NEW GAME with these tech rules you dont really know how powerful theyll be, actually there are reasons why ‘winning’ HB in the tech lotto can be a bad thing and is prolly why Ive never tried for tech. If you get HBs you almost HAVE to make use of them and your whole game turns into a bomber-fest. I personally dont find that a fun way to play.
The bomber has been cut to only 12 ipcs in cost, so they are only 2 more than fighter.The main issue is the balance between bombers and naval units.
If you have the heavy bomber tech, you can produce bombers and simply destroy navies.
The cheapest sea unit is a sub that costs 6 but cannot shot down an airplane. All other ships cost at least 8+, a heavy bomber costs 12 but can roll 2 [4] attack dice. While the 8 ipc destroyer only rolls a [2] and the 12 ipc cruiser rolls a [3]. A strong bomber force can quickly decimate and enemy navy.
Ya that makes sense, why not just have HB not effective against ships(they switch back to regular bombers)? House rule I know, but seriously, high altitude bombers were no good against boats!
One thing Im stil curious on is when dmg to factories is repaired. Is it repaired before you buy your units or after? So if you get bombed down to 1 production, can you repair 3 and build 4 units that round? I think this makes the most sense.
yes its immediately repaired when you allocate funds, so as not to mess you up.
I had a thought about Heavy Bombers, since so mant people seem to think that the tech is broken.
Why not let them be a 5 on Attack, a 2 on Defense, and their SBRs be an automatic “5”.
Never defense at 2 bombers were never meant for defensive purposes and thats why the the bomber gos 6 (that way you can hide behind a line annd still attack with the fighter(s)who are hiding behind another line!
