KJF Round 1

[squirecam]

@captainjack:

I’m playing a 4-player F2F game tonight, and my friend and I are the Allies.  We are planning on trying a KJF (or SJF) and I just wanted to get some thoughts on our Round 1 plans.
Russia1: buy 5 inf, 1 art, 1 arm; take Belorussia and West Russia, land one fig in Yakut, as well as one tank.  5-6 inf stack in Bury, 2 inf from Novo to Sink, sub to SZ6 (to block German navy from SZ3).
UK1: buy IC (for India), trn, inf, art; amph assault to Norway w/ or w/out air depending on what Germany does with the Navy, 4 inf stack in India, move TransJ inf to Egypt (these guys never attack Egypt on R1). move tank from Egypt to Persia, Indian ocean fig to attack Kwang trn and land in China, Indian ocean fleet and Aussy fleet to meet in SZ38, fig from Egypt to land on AC in 38.
US1: amph to Algeria and clean up Africa, Hawaiian fig and the bomber to land in Bury, consolodate fleet in SZ55, IC in Sink.
Any thoughts?

If you are going to KJF, you need a US pacific fleet, not a sink IC. You also need a UK bomber w/in range to sink japan transports should they be dumb and buy 3 for you to sink.

But rather than get opinions, play it out and learn. Nothing says “fun” better than trial and error. :)

[Croggyl]

@Cmdr:

A)  You could go to the battleship dominance strategy building an Industrial Complex, Aircraft Carrier, 2 infantry and an armor on Round 1 (the complex to go to Alaska) and then 1 or 2 battleships a round thereafter until such time you can overwhelm and destroy the Japanese fleet.

How do you defend that complex from japanese round 2 attack with all available transporters (maybe four) and perhaps fighters from CV before pearl harbour, perhaps a BB too?
There can be two inf (one us, one british), one tank (british), one bomber and three fighters at Alaska. But two of that fighters will be needed to secure the us fleet before WUS, I think. And if you use the transport to bring two additional inf to Alaska that tranny will be dead.
Do you sacrifice that tranny and risk one fighter to hold the newly build IC, or do you accept the loss of Alaska and counter it with five inf from WCA (fifth from Midway), tank and air?

[newpaintbrush]

@ShadowHAwk:

If germany does not take or attack egypt on turn 1 you can verry easy defend india from japan.

Not attacking Anglo-Egypt on G1 is probably due to one of three reasons.

1.  Germany is retarded

2.  Germany is not retarded, but there is something else that is SOOOO GOOOOD for Germany that Germany won’t pass it up.

3.  Germany is not retarded, but there is something else that is pretty darn good that Germany decided to do.

–

Germany should and almost certainly will hit Anglo-Egypt.  If Germany does NOT, it’s probably because Germany is opening up a really big can of whoop-a** somewhere else.

In which case India may be a secondary concern after all.

I agree, if Germany does NOT hit Anglo-Egypt, then yeah, India is lotz easier to defend.  But do you want to defend India, is what I’m saying here.

[captainjack]

@Bunnies:

@ShadowHAwk:

If germany does not take or attack egypt on turn 1 you can verry easy defend india from japan.

Not attacking Anglo-Egypt on G1 is probably due to one of three reasons.

1.  Germany is retarded

2.  Germany is not retarded, but there is something else that is SOOOO GOOOOD for Germany that Germany won’t pass it up.

3.  Germany is not retarded, but there is something else that is pretty darn good that Germany decided to do.

–

Germany should and almost certainly will hit Anglo-Egypt.  If Germany does NOT, it’s probably because Germany is opening up a really big can of whoop-a** somewhere else.

In which case India may be a secondary concern after all.

I agree, if Germany does NOT hit Anglo-Egypt, then yeah, India is lotz easier to defend.  But do you want to defend India, is what I’m saying here.

I know that most (if not all) of you say that Germany really should attack Egypt of G1, but I also know that most (if not all) of you place a bid unit in Libya.  My friends and I do not play with any bid, so do you still think its necessary/possible to attack (and win) Egypt while still being able to kill the British BB and DD?  Thoughts?

[Romulus]

We were used to play f2f games 2 Vs 2 and usually we did not use any bid.

We perfom the attack in this way:

• 1 sub three fighters attack Gibraltar BB;
• 1 BB, 1 fig, 1 TRN (1 inf 1 art) attack Suez DD;
• 2 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 fig, 1 bmb attacck 1 inf, 1 tank, 1 fig in Egypt;

Now we are using bid for axis and if Germany places bid on the Eastern front the attack in the mediterranean are performed in the same way as described above.

I think that Anglo-Egypt forces and Gibraltar BB have to be destroyed on R1.

[captainjack]

two questions…  why do you take an inf & art on the tranny instead of an inf & arm?  where do you get the inf & art from - algeria or southern europe?  Thanks

[Romulus]

Answering to second question first: 1 Inf and 1 art are picked up in Southern Europe.

I usually prefer to bring artillery and leave the tank in Europe because I prefer to send all the available panzers in Eastern Europe in G1 to keep Red Army at bay. But some time I send the panzer in Africa instead of the artillery.
Generally sending the panzer is better than sending the artillery: they have the same die points of 1 inf and 1 art (4) but suffered less from skew, moreover panzer may blitz and having two of them help more in grabbing away UK IPC.

How I decide from the two options? I will expose my thoughts but you may decide basing on differents evaluation, the following are only my opinions.

If there is need of more offensive punch in the trading of territories on the russian front or if Germany have lost the fighter in Ukraine in R1 i prefer to leave artillery in Europe for the addictional punch in trading territories. Usually I do not use tanks in those battles.
If Russia has been cautious attacking Belorussia and West Russia or West Russia alone, or if Russia has taken a lot of losses in R1 and an opening for a initial German advance is possible, in those cases I leave the panzer in Eastern Europe.

Another thing to consider for the choice between the art and the tank is the fact that the UK could hit two times in defense leaving two panzers in Anglo-Egypt thay may be promptly counter-attacked in UK1.

[captainjack]

Just out of curiosity - what is your typical G1 purchases?  Lately I’ve been buying a DD (for Baltic) a tranny (for Med.) and then 5 inf and an armor; but I’m not sure it’s doing me any good.

[Romulus]

My tipical German G1 purchases are:

10 inf + 2 Panzers OR
10 inf + 1 fighters OR
8 inf + 4 art

this are ordinary buying.

Sometime I am willing to be more offensive and I buy:
5 inf 5 panzers
8 panzers

and some other time I am willing to play with ships:
1 AC + 8 inf

The first three buying give more solidity to Germany.

Naturally I have not invented nothing I have only read here: http://www.axisandallies.org/taxonomy/term/29

[captainjack]

without a G1 naval buy, how do you protect your baltic fleet from the Brits?

[newpaintbrush]

Arrr, captain jack, you thread pirrrate u.

Better start a new thread and label it “Please advise: Germany Turn 1 with No Bid” or some such thing.

This ain’t KJF Round 1 no more.

Arrr!

[Romulus]

Which fleet? Those ships in the seazone 5?  :-D

Well I do not care at all, if UK wants to sink them he can. My first priority is to build up my army.

Churchill said that a strong fleet is a necessity for UK but is a luxury for Germany.

Naturally you may build ships with Germany and you may use them to create a lot of problems to allies. Sometimes I try to become a naval power with Germany but it give less solidity on the gorund.

[captainjack]

@Bunnies:

Arrr, captain jack, you thread pirrrate u.

Better start a new thread and label it “Please advise: Germany Turn 1 with No Bid” or some such thing.

This ain’t KJF Round 1 no more.

Arrr!

You’re right - my apologies!!

[Jennifer]

@captainjack:

without a G1 naval buy, how do you protect your baltic fleet from the Brits?

Destroyer, Transport, 2 Submarines from SZ 5 to SZ 7
Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to SZ 15

Let England attack you in SZ 7 and then you can crush him with your air-force and navy.

or

Submarine to SZ 7, Submarine to SZ 3, Transport, Destroyer to SZ 6

or

Just leave them all in SZ 5 and take out two or three British aircraft and lose the navy.

Just a few suggestions.

---

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

[Romulus]

@Cmdr:

Destroyer, Transport, 2 Submarines from SZ 5 to SZ 7
Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to SZ 15
…

---

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

Should be: Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to  SZ 13

Whit a bid also I prefer to buy fighters and panzers in G1, without a bid, I think more infantry is better.

[Jennifer]

@Romulus:

@Cmdr:

Destroyer, Transport, 2 Submarines from SZ 5 to SZ 7
Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to SZ 15
…

---

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

Should be: Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to  SZ 13

Whit a bid also I prefer to buy fighters and panzers in G1, without a bid, I think more infantry is better.

Yes, thank you, my bad.  SZ 13 is the sea zone I was thinking of, with the Gibraltar Strait.  This allows Germany to pose a very credible threat to any fleet England has, especially if they foolishly sunk the Germans in SZ 7. (Which is VERY easy to do, mind you!  You can only chose to retreat if there’s an enemy still present!  :-o )

Even if England strafes and does not get stuck in SZ 7, with all those fighters and bombers you could still jeapordize the combined allied fleets in SZ 8.

And I agree, some of the standard builds for Germany are not optimal against all players, in my most humble opinions.  Actually, in my opinion, the added punch of the fighter and bomber on Germany one far supercedes any naval purchase Germany may buy.  Then again, my opinion is that Germany should hope that England attacks the SZ 5 fleet as this will give Germany the best chance in the entire game to destroy the Royal Air Force for units Germany does not even need.  From that point forward, killing the RAF will be very difficult, if not impossible. (Rebuilding the SZ 5 fleet is easy when you need it.  Rebuilding the RAF is very hard and may never actually be done in some games.)

[captainjack]

@Cmdr:

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

That’s an interesting buy, I’ll have to try that…

[Jennifer]

@captainjack:

@Cmdr:

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

That’s an interesting buy, I’ll have to try that…

If you think that’s interesting, you should see your opponent go apoplectic thinking you’re such a big newb. (And then watch the color drain from his face when he realizes that you have the air power necessary to hold all the territories you need and threaten his shipping!)

:evil:

BTW, I’ve said it in a few places, but I dont think this thread.  As Germany, I like to have 3 bombers and 7 or 8 fighters.  As Japan I like to have 10 fighters and 2 bombers.

The idea is that 5 bombers should routinely do 20 IPC in damage to the Russians on a semi consistent basis (that’s only 4 per, if you are less optimistic figure 3 each for 15.)  Odds are that you’ll lose one a round, but you do have semi-decent odds that you won’t lose any that round as well. (5/6 ~ 83%)

[Romulus]

@Cmdr:

@Romulus:

@Cmdr:

Destroyer, Transport, 2 Submarines from SZ 5 to SZ 7
Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to SZ 15
…

---

Honestly, my Round 1 German Purchases have been going more to the 5 Infantry, Fighter, Bomber route lately.  Something nice about 6 or 7 fighters and 2 bombers on Germany 2.

Should be: Transport, Battleship from SZ 14 to  SZ 13

Whit a bid also I prefer to buy fighters and panzers in G1, without a bid, I think more infantry is better.

Yes, thank you, my bad.  SZ 13 is the sea zone I was thinking of, with the Gibraltar Strait.  This allows Germany to pose a very credible threat to any fleet England has, especially if they foolishly sunk the Germans in SZ 7. (Which is VERY easy to do, mind you!  You can only chose to retreat if there’s an enemy still present!  :-o )

Even if England strafes and does not get stuck in SZ 7, with all those fighters and bombers you could still jeapordize the combined allied fleets in SZ 8.

And I agree, some of the standard builds for Germany are not optimal against all players, in my most humble opinions.  Actually, in my opinion, the added punch of the fighter and bomber on Germany one far supercedes any naval purchase Germany may buy.  Then again, my opinion is that Germany should hope that England attacks the SZ 5 fleet as this will give Germany the best chance in the entire game to destroy the Royal Air Force for units Germany does not even need.  From that point forward, killing the RAF will be very difficult, if not impossible. (Rebuilding the SZ 5 fleet is easy when you need it.  Rebuilding the RAF is very hard and may never actually be done in some games.)

I agree.
In some games with German I buy the 2nd bomber, usually when I have extra income from Africa.
I usually prefer to go buy infantry in the first round, 8-10 usually, adding 2 panzers OR a figthers. I use them to reinforce Eastern front lines. In 2nd turn I buy some other air, a often a fighter or a bomber sometime.
Your idea on strat bombing Russia heavy is interesting.
Last week we had a game in wich Germany (me) had 2 bombers and Japan had also 2 bombers. Incidentally we have used the strategy that you proposed with very good result.
I started Strat bombing England then, with Japanese Bomber in position, German and Japan started both to bomb Russia. We lose two bombers (both Japanese) during 5 turns of bombing, but doing a lot of damage to Russia. We suspended the match (usually we “save” the game after 4-5 turns to continue in the next gaming session) and we will continue this week end. Germany is really powerful having 8 fighters and 2 bombers. Japan now has 6 fighters and 1 bomber, but has built a lot of infantries and tanks and is preparing assault to Moscow. The interesting thing is that Luftwaffe has keep allied navy far from Europe forcing UK and USA to build a lot of ships (AC, DD, more TRN than strictly needed) that now are powerless in helping Russia to keep Moscow. They lack ground units and airforce.

[captainjack]

What are some of your typical J1 buys and combat moves?  It seems like everything I try with Japan (on land) doesn’t go very well for me.  When I go after China I win, but then I don’t have hardly any troops (if any) left in Manch, Kwang, or FIC (except for the 2 units I transport into Manch during non-combat), and then I usually get countered in China by Russia and lose (my bad luck I think), and India has an open door in FIC!!!  By the way, lately I’ve been buying 2 trn, and ground units for J1.  Thanks!