18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2

[MrRoboto]

TripleA Turn Summary: Germans round 8

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 3.4

Game History

Round: 8

    Research Technology - Germans

    Purchase Units - Germans
        Germans buy 2 artilleries, 1 factory_minor, 3 fighters, 5 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Politics - Germans
        Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese
            Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Germans and Chinese from Neutrality to War

    Combat Move - Germans
        1 armour moved from Volgograd to Sikang
              Germans take Kazakhstan from Russians
              Germans take Sikang from Chinese
        1 armour moved from Northwest Persia to Persia
              Germans take Persia from British
        1 armour moved from Northwest Persia to Iraq
              Germans take Iraq from British
        1 armour moved from Iraq to Northwest Persia
        1 armour moved from Persia to Northwest Persia
        1 armour moved from Volgograd to Tsinghai
              Germans take Tsinghai from Chinese
        2 armour moved from Volgograd to Novosibirsk
              Germans take Novosibirsk from Russians
        1 armour moved from Volgograd to Novosibirsk
        1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Rostov to Tambov
        2 infantry moved from Belarus to Smolensk
        1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Novgorod to Archangel
        1 artillery moved from Belarus to Smolensk
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Novgorod to 112 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 113 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone
        3 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from 97 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Southern Italy to Western Germany
        5 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to 112 Sea Zone

    Combat - Germans
        Americans scrambles 3 units out of Norway to defend against the attack in 112 Sea Zone
        Battle in Tambov
            Germans attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 0,83 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Tambov, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Tambov
            Germans win, taking Tambov from Russians with 1 artillery and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in Archangel
            Germans attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Archangel, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 0,83 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Archangel, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Archangel
            Germans win, taking Archangel from Russians with 1 artillery and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in Smolensk
            Germans attack with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 2 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0,83 expected hits
                Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Smolensk, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Smolensk
            Germans win, taking Smolensk from Russians with 1 artillery and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in 112 Sea Zone
            Germans attack with 5 fighters, 1 submarine and 5 tactical_bombers
            British defend with 1 cruiser, 1 fighter and 2 transports; Americans defend with 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 3 fighters, 1 submarine, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
                Americans roll dice for 1 submarine in 112 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,17 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 112 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Americans
                Germans roll dice for 5 fighters and 5 tactical_bombers in 112 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/10 hits, 5,83 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 4 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 4 transports in 112 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/10 hits, 5,17 expected hits
                1 cruiser owned by the Americans, 2 destroyers owned by the Americans, 1 submarine owned by the Germans, 1 cruiser owned by the British, 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Americans, 1 fighter owned by the Germans, 1 carrier owned by the Americans and 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans lost in 112 Sea Zone
            1 submarine owned by the Americans Submerged
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 4 tactical_bombers in 112 Sea Zone, round 3 : 4/8 hits, 4,67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 4 fighters and 4 transports in 112 Sea Zone, round 3 : 3/4 hits, 2,67 expected hits
                2 fighters owned by the Germans, 3 fighters owned by the Americans, 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans and 1 fighter owned by the British lost in 112 Sea Zone
                2 transports owned by the British and 2 transports owned by the Americans lost in 112 Sea Zone
            Germans win with 2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 77
            Casualties for Germans: 3 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 tactical_bombers
            Casualties for Americans: 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 3 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
            Casualties for British: 1 cruiser, 1 fighter and 2 transports

    Non Combat Move - Germans
        2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from 112 Sea Zone to Western Germany
        3 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Belarus to Karelia
        4 armour and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Eastern Poland to Novgorod
        1 artillery moved from Belarus to Novgorod
        1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Belarus
        2 carriers, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer moved from 97 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
        2 carriers, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
        4 infantry moved from Germany to Poland
        6 aaGuns, 7 artilleries and 17 infantry moved from Rostov to Volgograd
        2 armour moved from Volgograd to Northwest Persia

    Place Units - Germans
        1 factory_minor placed in Caucasus
        3 infantry placed in Volgograd
        Germans undo move 2.
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Volgograd
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Novgorod
        3 fighters placed in Western Germany
        1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Germany
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Western Germany: 1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers
        EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Southern Italy: 1 fighter and 2 tactical_bombers
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

    Turn Complete - Germans
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 2
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 105 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,3
        Germans collect 63 PUs (2 lost to blockades); end with 63 PUs
        Objective Germans 6 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 69 PUs
        Objective Germans 3 Control Caucasus: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 74 PUs
        Objective Germans 2 Control Novgorod Or Volgograd Or Russia: Germans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 84 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans : 2,67
Americans : -2,00
Russians : 0,00

Savegame

[666]

@MrRoboto I thought I saw dice that completed the Z112 battle, no? Perhaps it was a bad dream?!? if that is the case then lose all ships

[666]

@MrRoboto oh, now I see the completed turn…painful

[666]

@MrRoboto I am confused, why did my sub live in the sz112 battle? I stated ss fights? and Max D, your sub attacked rd 1 and hit. my sub should have been the first casualty? The USA tac should have lived for rd 2 of the battle.

[MrRoboto]

Well Max D means, that my submarine hit will tip your carrier.

[MrRoboto]

Because at that point, you wouldn’t know how I continue to roll…
So Max defense at that point should mean tipping something, instead of losing something, wouldn’t you agree?

[666]

@MrRoboto including the ss in the battle was to use it as fodder, if possible, and in that fashion have max d, as possibly being able to have an additional defensive roll. By not selecting it you effectively removed it from battle.
Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think. Nonetheless, i feel I should have a tac to roll on D for round 2, with the removal of the ss as intended and a fgt to roll in a round three if you wanted to continue the battle.
I guess this just goes to show that with naval battles i shouldn’t assume anything and ask for loses by round but I thought my intent was obvious. If the dice for this battle weren’t so “whacked” perhaps I wouldn’t care and whose to say the tac even hit’s on D? and if you even wanted a third round attack on the remaining fighter?
Let me know your thoughts MrR.

[MrRoboto]

I’m not 100% sure on the rules, but in case the attacker needs to roll everything and not only the submarine first, then battles like these should only be done on the forum.

Should the defender need to select casualties from submarines first, I still think that “Max Defense” means tipping instead of losing something.

However, I don’t want to fight about losing half a fighter (50% chance of you hitting). This game was so dicey anyway (Asia…) that I don’t care about it enough to get in a fight with you. Let’s just roll your tac

:aaa 1@3:

If it hits, feel free to edit one fighter out from me.

[MrRoboto]

The command seems to have changed.

@djensen can you help out please?

[Panther]

@MrRoboto
The forum dicey has not yet been implemented. It is on @djensen 's todo list.
I recommend to use a single MARTI dice roll for resolving your issue.

[MrRoboto]

@Panther Thanks for helping out. Are you reading all game threads, or what???

@JWWII I just attacked something with a single tank to represent your defending tac and marti rolled a 5.

So nothing has changed.

[Panther]

@MrRoboto Not really, but there are some keywords sometimes striking me when taking a quick glance over the recent threads. So it’s more or less a coincidence. :smirk:

[majikforce]

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

[djensen]

@MrRoboto What @Panther said. :-)

[666]

@MrRoboto I hear ya, I have received good dice in asia, I don’t consider this a fight at all, sorry if you feel that way. Perhaps i should have been clearer on my defensive wishes here. There seems to be enough times where I don’t do the math/calculations that hurt me and in this case I did, knew it would be close, and then for my plans to go awry because I wasn’t clear enough is my main driver here. But yes, with respect to the sub rule and selecting your loses I am quite confident that the rules don’t dictate that a decision on “loses” needs to be made before everything else. I could ask Gamerman etc…for clarification if you haven’t already. I haven’t read further in this thread, perhaps I should before commenting.

[666]

@MrRoboto I didn’t notice, the roll, but I trust you, but to make things more abrasive the extra tac means, i think, that there needs to be another round of fighting as I believe you hit 4 and I had five units, tac & 4 fighter’s. there would have been a fighter left for another round.

[666]

@majikforce said in 18L MrRoboto (Axis) vs JWW(Allies) BM3 Game 2:

Also, I believe triple a handles this incorrectly as all attacking dice should be rolled before casualties are selected, I think.

Not to butt in (although I guess I am by posting this) page 19 of the Europe rulebook under step 2 will clear up the rule issue. Suprise strike rolls and results are accounted for before the rest of the attacking dice are rolled. Triple A does do this correctly. And for what its worth I would agree with Mr Roboto’s interpretation of MAX D. (butting out now game on!)

hmmm, I will ask for clarification on the rule for my own sake, perhaps I have it all wrong. Lesson learned, provide OOL.

[666]

@simon33, @gamerman01, @majikforce gent’s I hope this message finds you, I haven’t sent a PM since the new site came up…w/respect to naval battles, attacking SS’s fire, then defending SS’s fire and Triple A makes you select loses, then the remainder of the attacking fleet fires and so on. I thought that this process was handled incorrectly by TripleA, whereby the rules does not make a defender select casualties before the entire 1st round of attacks take place? Am I mistaken?

[simon33]

Triple-A gets it wrong in a couple of cases:

• where an SS attacks/defends with other units and the other side has a DD.
• where a plane fires at an SS and the plane doesn’t have an accompanying DD.

[Panther]

@MrRoboto @JWWII

I am not acting as referee here, as this definitely is @Gamerman01 's part.
I just took a look at the SZ112 battle and realized your rules discussion regarding submarines here and how TripleA handles submarines.

Here is what I can add to this scenario from a rules and TripleA perspective:

At the start of the battle the German forces face the Allied forces including two Allied destroyers.
The Allied forces don’t face a German destroyer.
This is why the German submarine does not have a surprise strike in Combat Round 1, while the American submarine has it.

Now this is what TripleA should do:

It should roll only the American submarine in advance. In case the submarine had hit, a German unit would have had to be either damaged or immediately removed. Here the sub missed, however.

Then it should roll the “rest” of the battle including the attacking German submarine.

This is what TripleA actually does:

It does not roll only the American submarine in advance, but the German submarine, too, and forces the opponent to assign a hit. This is technically wrong and against the rules.

However TripleA considers the fact that the German submarine does not roll as a suprise strike. So casualties of this “illegal” in advance roll would not be removed immediately (though they disappear from the battle screen) but would - and actually do - fire back.

So the consequence of this in advance roll is similar to a roll of the submarine that occurred during the regular combat. The difference here is the timing of the casualty selection.

Players must be aware of this flaw when rolling sea battles.